More signs the ATR is going away.

[TOOL CRIB]

I agree with this statement. We won't get it because our ATR rate is very high compared to the industry, ans introducing any other t-prop would force a renegotiation on the rate. ALPA doesn't negotiate rates until the airplane is on property, so ASA couldn't make a competitive bid in an RFP.

Then why is Pinnacle flying CRJ-900s with rates that are still being negotiated?

 

[John Pennekamp]

Then why is Pinnacle flying CRJ-900s with rates that are still being negotiated?

I should have said the ASA MEC, not just "ALPA".

 

[Cpt Oveur]

Ummm maybe because we're f***ing cheap?!!! In this industry $$$ talks and BS walks. They don't care as much about performance as they do about money. It's just lip service.

Respectfully, I disagree. Yes, our total costs are cheaper than other carriers, but if Mesa is known for being cheap, and has even worse on time performance, then why are carriers like United looking to get rid of them. On time performance and operating costs are not mutually exclusive.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Respectfully, I disagree. Yes, our total costs are cheaper than other carriers, but if Mesa is known for being cheap, and has even worse on time performance, then why are carriers like United looking to get rid of them. On time performance and operating costs are not mutually exclusive.

Because they're unstable. They will most likely be gone within a year, and everyone knows it. ASA will be around for a long time.

 

[gator_hater]

"More signs the ATR is going away."

Was there not a memo about this a couple months ago that spelled out there departure or did I just dream that up?

 

[John Pennekamp]

"More signs the ATR is going away."

Was there not a memo about this a couple months ago that spelled out there departure or did I just dream that up?

We've been hearing "they will be gone this year" for two years now...

 

[centralpilot]

Oh well, when will we officially know about FOs being denied class on the jet who have it awarded? Sounds like a good time to get bypass pay, if it's still in the new contract....

I'm fairly certain that bypass pay is still in the new contract for those who are bypassed for the CR7. However, with so many ATR FOs already awarded jet positions, I'm not sure who would be left that has more than a year with the company to make it matter. Also, the vast majority of ATR FOs with jet awards have been receiving bypass pay for some time, so it won't affect pay if the company decides to cancel their classes.

One thing I'm curious about is how the company goes about seat locking people when they start retiring ATRs from the fleet. I don't recall seeing any language on this in the contract. Is that usually negotiated with the union in a LOA?

 

[kf4amu]

ALPA doesn't negotiate rates until the airplane is on property,

So why did PDT set LTP rates for the Q400/ATR, when neither is on the property or even ordered?

 

[John Pennekamp]

So why did PDT set LTP rates for the Q400/ATR, when neither is on the property or even ordered?

If you read carefully, you'd see I clarified my statement. by "ALPA" I was referring to the ASA MEC, who has a strict policy of not bidding on "phantom aircraft".

 

[John Pennekamp]

One thing I'm curious about is how the company goes about seat locking people when they start retiring ATRs from the fleet. I don't recall seeing any language on this in the contract. Is that usually negotiated with the union in a LOA?

The way they did it on the Brasilia was not to officially seat lock anyone, but rather, just not let anyone off (bypass). That covered all the FOs since FOs can be legally bypassed indefinitely, as long as they're paid the higher rate. Since Captains can't be bypassed, they awarded them positions, but never sent them to training. This eventually led to a grievance because they were sending people not on the Brasilia (jet FOs upgrading for example) to class before the Brasilia Captains holding an award. They are required to send everyone from a previous award before they send anyone from a later award.

ASA eventually settled, but it bought them the 3-6 months they needed to retire the airplane and still have pilots. "Fly now, grieve later" is a great thing if you're in management. Expect to see it happen again.

 

[centralpilot]

The way they did it on the Brasilia was not to officially seat lock anyone, but rather, just not let anyone off (bypass). That covered all the FOs since FOs can be legally bypassed indefinitely, as long as they're paid the higher rate. Since Captains can't be bypassed, they awarded them positions, but never sent them to training. This eventually led to a grievance because they were sending people not on the Brasilia (jet FOs upgrading for example) to class before the Brasilia Captains holding an award. They are required to send everyone from a previous award before they send anyone from a later award.

ASA eventually settled, but it bought them the 3-6 months they needed to retire the airplane and still have pilots. "Fly now, grieve later" is a great thing if you're in management. Expect to see it happen again.

That explains it. However, I wonder if the new contract language regarding ATR FOs will allow them to do that. As I understand it, 10% of eligible FOs must be given their award and can't be bypassed. That being the case, we've seen that they are just delaying class dates for those awards. However, if they must send everyone on a previous award to class before they move to the later awards, wouldn't that logjam transition training?

 

[SPDBRD747400]

"More signs the ATR is going away."

Was there not a memo about this a couple months ago that spelled out there departure or did I just dream that up?

Q: Will the ATR fleet retire from ASA’s fleet in 2008?​

A: The ATRs are scheduled to start leaving our fleet in the fall of 2008 – like everything else, this
could change but right now it looks like the ATR will be phased out by the end of 2008.
Considering that we don’t currently have a plan to replace the ATR with new aircraft, it is up to us
to win new work. This may sound like a broken record but the fact is that we must prove that we
are the best choice for new work. That means that in the months to come we must prove to our
partners and the world, through our performance and efficiencies, that we are a quality carrier​

and that we are the only logical choice.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Q: Will the ATR fleet retire from ASA’s fleet in 2008?​

A: The ATRs are scheduled to start leaving our fleet in the fall of 2008 – like everything else, this
could change but right now it looks like the ATR will be phased out by the end of 2008.
Considering that we don’t currently have a plan to replace the ATR with new aircraft, it is up to us
to win new work. This may sound like a broken record but the fact is that we must prove that we
are the best choice for new work. That means that in the months to come we must prove to our
partners and the world, through our performance and efficiencies, that we are a quality carrier​

and that we are the only logical choice.

What a crap answer. Once again, management shifting their responsibility to find growth to us, the pilots, and setting us up to be the excuse for their failure to perform this task. Did this come from Scott Hall?

 

[SPDBRD747400]

What a crap answer. Once again, management shifting their responsibility to find growth to us, the pilots, and setting us up to be the excuse for their failure to perform this task. Did this come from Scott Hall?

Nope this one was from Brad H. Q&A on OurASA.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Nope this one was from Brad H. Q&A on OurASA.

That's disappointing. This is the first time I've heard Brad Holt spewing such propaganda. His stock just went down.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Q: Will the ATR fleet retire from ASA’s fleet in 2008?​

A: The ATRs are scheduled to start leaving our fleet in the fall of 2008 – like everything else, this
could change but right now it looks like the ATR will be phased out by the end of 2008.
Considering that we don’t currently have a plan to replace the ATR with new aircraft, it is up to us
to win new work. This may sound like a broken record but the fact is that we must prove that we
are the best choice for new work. That means that in the months to come we must prove to our
partners and the world, through our performance and efficiencies, that we are a quality carrier​

and that we are the only logical choice.

and if they don't we will execute Mountain Meadows Massacre plan 3B(f) part1 on them, we already sued them for $25,000,000 over our flight cancellations - so they better not screw with us on future contract awards! With 11 Delta Connection and NorthWest Airlink carriers and too much contracted capacity they'll see that we are the only logical choice.

 

[John Pennekamp]

and we sued them for $25,000,000 over a contract dispute - well that proves something

"We"? I thought SkyWest Inc. sued Delta.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Potato, potAto...

I thought ASA flew what SkyWest signed contracts to provide.

Hey, I like the ATR's and wish there were more of them flown by ASA pilots. But the contracting arm of the SkyWest operation currently holds a switchblade.

Even if the suit has merit (which it might/might not) it is a dumb move in the current environment. The dispute is chump change, but could not be more poorly timed.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Potato, potAto...

I thought ASA flew what SkyWest signed contracts to provide.

Hey, I like the ATR's and wish there were more of them flown by ASA pilots. But the contracting arm of the SkyWest operation currently holds a switchblade.

Even if the suit has merit (which it might/might not) it is a dumb move in the current environment. The dispute is chump change, but could not be more poorly timed.

I really don't think the lawsuit is a big deal, and amounts to a hill of beans in terms of Delta awarding SkyWest Inc future flying.

SkyWest says Delta owes them $25m. Delta says they don't. A lawsuit or arbitration is the accepted way to handle such disputes. This is nothing more than a business contract dispute, and is a fairly standard way to dispose of one. I really don't see the bad blood so many people seem to think this will cause.

 

[propsarebest]

One thing to remember...

Brad H. has the WORST case of SJS that anyone has ever seen.