More New Hires at FedEx!

[Echopapa]

Tony

Having done the same thing (the 727 Capt) I agree completely. Those that never flew a window seat in the Boeing have missed some great training and great experience. Also, that left seat was a blast!

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I have never flown the 727 in any seat. I have jumpseated it only once, and that was enough to convince me to stay well clear. I plan to move from wide body right seat to wide body left seat. I have already passed up Captain on the Boeing and the only thing I miss is the extra pay.

I hear this a lot for Boeing guys......"Everyone should be forced to fly the Boeing as a Captain before upgrading to the wide bodies". I couldn't disagree more.

1. Everyone hired at FedEx has already been a Captain.

2. I don't think flying steam gauges helps prepare someone to fly a glass aircraft. If anything its counter productive.

3. I think that the 727 is a more difficult Captains job...so why start off that way? You don't have an FMS that tells you things like divert fuel, ACARS, or a moving map with weather overlay. The 727 also has the worst schedules, into the smallest fields, flying full proceedure approaches, and with no control tower.

Wide body flying is CAKE. Big cities, with approach controls that have already established a routing around weather. I have yet to do anything in the 4 years I've been here but a straight in visual or ILS into a field with an operational control tower. A T-37 student could handle that.

3. The FOM is not that complicated, and being a Captain here is not a big deal. Compared to the USAF this job is cake. You don't have to run your own flight plan. You don't do you own dip clearances. You show up an hour prior to block and go fly...cake. If you have a problem (WX, re-route, divert) you have GOC to help. I was in my mid 20's flying the left seat of a DC-10 internationally doing EVERYTHING.

There are many many wide body F/O's that never plan to fly the Boeing. I would of course consider flying the narrow body replacement, if it has glass....but well see what the future holds.

 

[profile]

You're entitled to your opinion. I was just pointing out that I did what Tony is doing, went to the Boeing left seat and then to the MD11 left seat. I would do it again for the reasons that Tony states. I know a lot of the widebody F/Os feel as you do, but, as Tony found out, there is more to gain by taking the Boeing route than you might think.

 

[VaB]

there is more to gain by taking the Boeing route than you might think.

What is it? I'm with Echopapa on this one, I'm waiting for the left seat of the 11 or a new narrow body with glass.

I've heard this same thing several times that you, Profile, and TonyC have said. It's just that noone ever elaborates. Is it a secret or something intangible that can't be described or what?

 

[klhoard]

What is it? I'm with Echopapa on this one, I'm waiting for the left seat of the 11 or a new narrow body with glass.

I've heard this same thing several times that you, Profile, and TonyC have said. It's just that noone ever elaborates. Is it a secret or something intangible that can't be described or what?

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It's called - "Putting lipstick on a pig".. . . .
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[psysicx]

Do people ever go from the right seat of the MD to the left seat of the bus?

 

[sandman2122]

The way things are evolving the Airbus trips will eventually mirror image the Boeing trips, so why cross over? To pay dues?? Naw, I'm already broke!

Heard the Airbus will pick up THL and LRD later this summer....

 

[LEROY]

Having worked the Boeing panel for a scant year and having moved to the right seat for a more scant minus one months (in-training) I can say it has been very rewarding so far. Most all of my flight hours have been logged on old steam-gage-multi-turbines, though, so it's not quite a leap into prehistoric times for me. Going from the back to the right has been a lot smoother for me than going from the right seat of a widebody to the left seat of the Boeing, IMHO. So I would suggest that if you are on the panel, a wise move would be to consider the right seat.

As for the Bus, the right seat is much more senior than the Mad Dog. It went almost as senior as the DC 10 on the last bid if I remember correctly. Seems the folks who want right seat widebody pay without the hassle of international/long-leg trips bid the Bus.

 

[mongopilot]

Do people ever go from the right seat of the MD to the left seat of the bus?

I did, I spent 8 years in the right seat of the maddog and I'm currently in training for the left seat of the airbus. I have to admit that I wanted the left seat of the MD, but I was 40 #'s short. That being said, I have no regrets. If I would have gotten a MD capt slot, I was going to be an MD-10 Capt and not an MD-11 Capt. I would be too junior to get any intn'l flying. Either way I'll be doing domestic. I will probably head back to the maddog in a couple of years. The way I look at it, you can't go wrong in a left seat of a widebody. IMHO.

 

[Herculeus]

Is there a seat lock?

 

[TonyC]

I have never flown the 727 in any seat. I have jumpseated it only once, and that was enough to convince me to stay well clear. I plan to move from wide body right seat to wide body left seat. I have already passed up Captain on the Boeing and the only thing I miss is the extra pay.

I have never flown the A300 in any seat. I have jumpseated it only once, and that was enough to convince me... no, actually it doesn't qualify me to say anything about the A300.

I once planned to move from wide body right seat to wide body left seat. I empathize with that opinion completely. I used to joke that I jumpseated on the Boeing once a year only to remind myself that I didn't want to fly that thing. I know exactly where you're coming from. In retrospect I can say that I am very glad that I went through the program. What I was trying to tell Los1 is that I'm glad I changed my plan, I'm glad I went through the 727 front seat program. It was a worthwhile experience.

I hear this a lot for Boeing guys......"Everyone should be forced to fly the Boeing as a Captain before upgrading to the wide bodies". I couldn't disagree more.

You certainly didn't hear the word "forced" come out of my mouth, I would never advocate the concept. You also did not hear me advocate one window seat over the other in the Boeing. The program is essentially the same. The 2-hour Composite Oral prior to the Type-Rating ride is a team effort - - the Captain and First Officer share the same experience, the same event. I mentioned to Los1 that the right seat of the Boeing would provide the same advantage, but I don't really see wide-body FOs downbidding to the Boeing right seat to get that experience. The logical place for them to go is the left seat of the Boeing.

1. Everyone hired at FedEx has already been a Captain.

Agreed. Again, it's not the "Captain-ness" of the program at issue, at least in my mind. Having the potential to be a Captain is not at issue, either.

2. I don't think flying steam gauges helps prepare someone to fly a glass aircraft. If anything its counter productive.

Did I say anything about steam guages versus glass? No. Again, that has nothing to do with it. I had flown steam guages before - - big deal. I disagree that it's counterproductive, but that's a topic for another day. The 727 program did not teach me to fly steam guages.

3. I think that the 727 is a more difficult Captains job...so why start off that way? You don't have an FMS that tells you things like divert fuel, ACARS, or a moving map with weather overlay. The 727 also has the worst schedules, into the smallest fields, flying full proceedure approaches, and with no control tower.

I'm not sure I agree with you on the difficulty level. The jobs are different, true, but the differences are not so much particular to being a Captain. Granted, I don't have a lot of experience under my belt as a Boeing Captain, but I'm not even talking about that either. I'm talking about the experience of the training program. I found it to be very educational and beneficial.

I have a lot of experince in a wide-body training program, having been through it as an FO, having been left-seat qualified for training events, and having provided seat support for a number of recurrent training events as well as type-rating rides. I can tell you that I learned far more about the FOM, the FARs, JEPPS, and flying in general during the progress of the 727 course than I did in all of the MD-11 training. That's my experience; your mileage may vary.

Much of what I learned involved thought processes, prioritization of considerations, and a real, honest emphasis on crew interactions. Much attention is paid to exercising judgment in the gray areas. There's not nearly as much "black and white" as is enjoyed in the widebodies. Much of what I'm talking about is never addressed in the MD-11 program, at least - - perhaps it's in the Airbus or the DC-10, but I doubt it - - because it's assumed that these are already known. The training footprints have been pared down to the minimums because training days cost money. Taking a day here, or a day there, or even 15 minutes or an hour here or there to address some of these issues is not even considered in the wide-body programs. You're expected to already know it. You didn't cover basic addition in 10th grade because it was assumed you learned that in 1st grade, and there's no time to review. Same concept applies here.

Returning to the Comp Oral I mentioned above... The MD-11 Type ride pre-brief consists primarily of a review of checkride procedures, a list of the required maneuvers, and an opportunity to ask questions of the evaluator. There's time for review of certificates and other documents, and then the evaluator hands the candidate the paperwork and leaves to go "set up" the sim. The candidate with the seat support reviews the FP/R and the WX/NOTAMS, visits the restroom, sips a little coffee, and eventually meets the evaluator at the door of the sim and says, "I don't NEED a takeoff alternate, but I'm going to declare one anyway." The evaluator says, "OK, it's KABC, the weather there is 3000/5, winds light and variable, initials are XY, and the time is 1903Z. The circuit breakers are all good." All that took less than 30 minutes. Does that sound familiar?

Before the Type Rating ride (or the "Sim Check" in the case of the FO) in the 727, a 2-hour comprehensive oral is administered that covers anything and everything that you could be expected to know as a Part 121 operator. You name it, they can ask it. CFM, FOM, FARs, AIM, JEPPS. How well do you know them? ALL of them? Are you willing to risk your next checkride on how well you know them? I'd say the 727 checkride was far more challenging than the MD-11 checkride, and that was before we even stepped out of the briefing room. I thought I knew the FOM fairly well, being an experienced wide-body FO and a Flex Instructor at that. Boy, did I learn a lot. The time invested in preparing for the Comp Oral was extremely productive.

But, hey, I was doing quite well on the Maddog NOT knowing much of that stuff, and I would have had an incredibly easy time going to the left seat, as well. What I didn't know I may never have had to use. There's plenty of guys out there doing a fine job of faking it. I could have faked it, too. However, I consider the experience that I gained to be extremely valuable to me as a professional aviator. I could have done quite well being lazy, but I'm glad I learned instead.

Wide body flying is CAKE. Big cities, with approach controls that have already established a routing around weather. I have yet to do anything in the 4 years I've been here but a straight in visual or ILS into a field with an operational control tower. A T-37 student could handle that.

I didn't say it was easy. I said it was a worthwhile experience, one that merits consideration by a professional aviator. I've known Los1 for quite some time now, and consider him to be one. Consequently, I recommend he consider it.

(I also taught Tweets. Not EVERY T-37 student could handle it. )

3. The FOM is not that complicated, and being a Captain here is not a big deal. Compared to the USAF this job is cake. You don't have to run your own flight plan. You don't do you own dip clearances. You show up an hour prior to block and go fly...cake. If you have a problem (WX, re-route, divert) you have GOC to help. I was in my mid 20's flying the left seat of a DC-10 internationally doing EVERYTHING.

Hey, I thought we already had a number 3! Do we need to go back to kindergarten?

No, the FOM is not that complicated, but you know what? Every time I read through it I learn something. I thought I knew it pretty well before, but I know it far better now. I know that the MD-11 program doesn't have the same emphasis. I know I would likely have never raised my knowledge level of the FOM to what it is now had I remained on the wide-body until I could hold wide-body Captain.

I also used to think that being a Captain here is not a big deal. Our backgrounds are very similar, and I understand where you're coming from. I've done all that, too. This is different. It's not about filling out DD1701's. It is a big deal, but it's not just about being a Captain. Like I've said several times before, it's the front-end program - - the FO gets just about the same experience.

There are many many wide body F/O's that never plan to fly the Boeing. I would of course consider flying the narrow body replacement, if it has glass....but well see what the future holds.

I was one of them, I empathize completely. IF the narrowbody replacement program contains the same "entry level" emphasis as the 727 program, I'd whole-heartedly endorse that plan. If it's designed, however, based on the assumption, as the wide-body programs assume today, that you've already been through the "727 program," then I'd find the same fault in it as the pure wide-body approach today.


It's not for everybody. I think it's worth serious consideration.