More Hostages at AAI

[Bringupthebird]

When a reserve is called to cover a refused aircraft, can the pilot ask scheduling the reason for his call-out? Can he too refuse it?

Just food for thought - what will the cost be to your pilot group to buy back the hostages jobs? Everything comes at some cost, especially the right thing.

 

[another cfii]

When a reserve is called to cover a refused aircraft, can the pilot ask scheduling the reason for his call-out? Can he too refuse it?

Just food for thought - what will the cost be to your pilot group to buy back the hostages jobs? Everything comes at some cost, especially the right thing.

I doubt schedulers would know the exact technical details of trips in open time (and even if they do, they probably don't even have to tell you), so if you want to refuse a trip without even showing up at the gate preflighting the plane, you'd better have a good story and stick to it. Either way, you'll have to talk to coach in short order.

What FL mgmt did was totally wrong, no other way about it. There's a system in place for things like that, beginning with verbal warning. These guys are simply "fired", not furloughed, not suspended (like another FO for wearing his uniform dropping kiddos off). There's much more details to these firings that we are not privy to know, so let's give these guys the benefit of the doubt.

 

[CatfishVT9]

When a reserve is called to cover a refused aircraft, can the pilot ask scheduling the reason for his call-out? Can he too refuse it?

Just food for thought - what will the cost be to your pilot group to buy back the hostages jobs? Everything comes at some cost, especially the right thing.

Maybe he just reads the logbook?

 

[CatfishVT9]

Lear. I know for a fact that some of our guys are doing some stupid chit on line right now. Stuff that can, and will get them fired. Some of the stuff is absolutely rediculous.

There's no "e" in ridiculous.

 

[FLYLOW22]

When a reserve is called to cover a refused aircraft, can the pilot ask scheduling the reason for his call-out? Can he too refuse it?

Just food for thought - what will the cost be to your pilot group to buy back the hostages jobs? Everything comes at some cost, especially the right thing.

Unless the termination was for "Just Cause" as described in this link, the termination will just not stick.

AirTran Management is attempting to whip you boys into submission. Many are hoping that you whip them right back.

Nobody wins a slugfest like this but many do lose by giving in.

They are trying to affect an integral part of the bargaining group (pilot group) by conditioning your behavior in the cockpit. It won't work if you stand strong.

 

[C-150ETOPS]

If a captain turns down an airplane because they don't like the MEL that states the A/C is perfectly safe to fly you better have a darn good reason. When the manufacture says its ok to fly with the MEL, the FAA says its ok to fly with the MEL the company says its ok to fly with the MEL, MX says its ok, and all the pilots before you have flown with the MEL. Thats not the situation where you wanna delay, and cancel a flight because your trying to prove a point!.

I'm not AAI, but I'd like you to answer a question gt1900.

An engine bleed valve was wired shut on a 737, resulting in a FL250 limitation and inop engine anti-ice. It was a 3:45 daytime flight across the Gulf of Mexico (including non-radar segment) and into MEX.

The agent says she heard we were legal as she lined up the pax for boarding. The mechanics said I was legal per the MEL.
3 feet of ACARS paper from dispatch said it was legal since there was no known or forecast icing and MEX had the standard HZ. He also said he had planes coming back from MEX/CUN "all day reporting smooth and clear". Our satellite weather showed no visible convective activity along the route.

gt1900, would this scenario fit your definition of guys doing things the wrong way even though I was paper legal?

 

[gt1900]

Ya, whats the issue with your scenerio? If your only going to CUN and your not crossing any mts. Whats the problem? I have a feeling there is more to it then that. But flying to CUN at 25,000 ft with good weather and no icing with a bleed MEL'd seems perfectly reasonable to me? Unless theres a safety of flight issue, why would you turn that down? Turbo prop guys do that stuff all the time!

 

[eaglesview]

Ya, whats the issue with your scenerio? If your only going to CUN and your not crossing any mts. Whats the problem? I have a feeling there is more to it then that. But flying to CUN at 25,000 ft with good weather and no icing with a bleed MEL'd seems perfectly reasonable to me? Unless theres a safety of flight issue, why would you turn that down? Turbo prop guys do that stuff all the time![/QUOTE]

I sure hope that's not all you have for your argument!! How about the fact that the airplane will probably be full of passengers that like to be comfortable. One pack to CUN sounds like a very bad idea to me.

 

[gt1900]

He didn't say anything about 1 pack. He said a bleed was MELd. Can you run the other pac off the APU? Not like it matters but whats the difference between 90 degrees in Atlanta or Orlando and 90 degrees in CUN? If the AC can keep the cabin cool there is no problem.

If other crews were complaining about not being able to keep the AC cool then I could see the arguement. But if they were flying around Florida and ATL when it was hot and able to keep everyone comfortable, you would be able to keep people comfortable in CUN. Its one thing to leave DEN in the winter and land in CUN. Its another to leave ATL in the summer and land in CUN. It could easily be cooler in CUN then ATL.

 

[C-150ETOPS]

gt1900,

Just to clarify, it was into the Mexico City airport, not Cancun. The dispatcher said he had those flights "all day from Mexico City and Cancun reporting smooth and clear".



The pack wasn't the issue.

Your thoughts?

 

[Stifler's Mom]

It's interesting hearing the arguments about maintenance discrepancies. Statistically speaking, your aircraft should probably be around 50% having write-ups at outstations vs. maintenance bases.

If the a/c breaks, or has a maintenance issue, it has a maintenance issue. Call your company, have contract maintenance come out and fix it, or deal with maintenance control and dispatch and try and get some relief from it according to the MEL.

I had a Fed on a jumpseat last year, and he was a maintenance inspector. He said his FAA people would notice how close to 70% of maintenance write-ups would occur at a maintenance base for the airline he was assigned to. He knew exactly what pilots were doing, and wasn't thrilled about it. If the plane has a discrepancy, deal with it when it happens, not when it's convenient for you or the company.

I don't see how management can terminate these pilots for doing what is expected of them in the name of safety.

Good luck Air Tran.

 

[SLUF4]

I remember hearing an airtran guy on the radio making fun of an ASA guy for taxiing slow a few years ago, but I'm with ya. Good luck over there.

 

[gt1900]

Stifler...... Exactly!!!!!

C-150E....... Not sure now since Ive never been to Mexico city. But I think there are some pretty big MTS around that could bring driftdown, MEA's and other things into consideration since your only at FL 250. Isnt Mexico city pretty high as well. Again, I'm sure there is more to it then what youve told me. I think your missing the point a little though. Some of our guys went from writing very few things up to writing everything up, and doing it at outstations. Some of our guys don't realize the company tracks these things. And if your writing up stuff that you find under a panel thats only "supposed" to be checked once a day you better have a good reason for checking that panel. Thats my point. I have no problem with writing stuff up and turning down A/C. But, guys need to do it professionally. I know a pilot who writes everything up, and I mean everything. But the guy has been doing it since he upgraded. There was no change in his pattern. He isn't going anywhere. I also flew with a guy who goes slow everywhere he goes. His ontime performance is horrible. But its always been that way. Again, he is not bringing any undue attention to himself. Ive heard (second hand info so I cant say its 100% true) one of the guys who got fired was HATED down in MCO. Mx, dispatch, and scheduling all had problems with this guy. He put a huge target on his back when he started writing everything up and his ontime performance went to he11. Its fine if you do that, but you can bet mgmt is gonna be looking after you, so you better have a good reason why your ontime performance went from the mid 70's to below 50% overnight!

 

[twepilot]

Interesting...I've always wondered if the company tracked "ontime" from a personal, capt by capt standpoint...

RV

 

[gt1900]

Im not sure they track it all the time. But, when someone starts raising eyebrows the company looks it up. Thats the good and bad about the airlines. EVERYTHING is recorded. Its pretty simple actually, don't give them a reason to come after you. Because they will!

 

[ron burgundy]

Interesting...I've always wondered if the company tracked "ontime" from a personal, capt by capt standpoint...

RV

They do now!

 

[eaglesview]

He didn't say anything about 1 pack. He said a bleed was MELd. Can you run the other pac off the APU? Not like it matters but whats the difference between 90 degrees in Atlanta or Orlando and 90 degrees in CUN? If the AC can keep the cabin cool there is no problem.

If other crews were complaining about not being able to keep the AC cool then I could see the arguement. But if they were flying around Florida and ATL when it was hot and able to keep everyone comfortable, you would be able to keep people comfortable in CUN. Its one thing to leave DEN in the winter and land in CUN. Its another to leave ATL in the summer and land in CUN. It could easily be cooler in CUN then ATL.

I don't know what airplane you are talking about. The airbus, pending on which bleed in inop, would only have one pack available.. You do bring up a good point though, I wouldn't fly it in Atlanta either.

 

[Ty Webb]

Whats the problem? I have a feeling there is more to it then that. But flying to CUN at 25,000 ft with good weather and no icing with a bleed MEL'd seems perfectly reasonable to me? Unless theres a safety of flight issue, why would you turn that down? Turbo prop guys do that stuff all the time!

I wouldn't take that airplane, either, at least not without some pretty substantial information-gathering.

1) Are you legal to launch ETOPS with that bleed wired shut?

2) What if you lose your other bleed source? If you had to descend to 17,000 feet (APU limitation) would you still have safe/legal fuel reserves?

3) What was your alternate, and what is the MEA to get there? Will you have enough fuel to do it at 17,000 (or 16,000)? What if the APU isn't maintaining the cabin altitude, and you have to descend further? There are serious issues to consider, and it would probably be quicker to get me another aircraft than it would be to gather all of the information I would need to make an informed decision as PIC.

The problem, GT1900, is that you don't really know ALL of the circumstances of why another pilot who refused the equipment. You THINK you know, but all you REALLY know is Management's side of things.

Have you bothered to contact any of these pilots, and asked for their side of the story? Of course you haven't, or you wouldn't have come on here parroting management's positions on these matters.

Have a little respect for your fellow pilots, and if you can't be bothered to seek out both sides of what happened, then kindly refrain from posting misinformation and half-truths.

 

[gt1900]

Stifler...... Exactly!!!!!

C-150E....... Not sure now since Ive never been to Mexico city. But I think there are some pretty big MTS around that could bring driftdown, MEA's and other things into consideration since your only at FL 250. Isnt Mexico city pretty high as well. Again, I'm sure there is more to it then what youve told me. !

Ty... Reading isn't really your strong point is it. I already said there was probably more to it then was stated. The assumption in the first place was that it was an AAI flight to CUN. It then came out as a flight to Mexico City. What I said was if it was legal to make the flight to CUN, then IMO it wouldn't be an issue.

And to be honest. I have no idea what managments side of it was. Dont care either. What I DID say is that I have seen stuff that could get guys fired! Stupid stuff! Ive heard the rumors on what has happened to a couple of the guys from some of our pilots. And if they are true, then the guys did some pretty stupid chit that can easily be tracked by the company. I heard second hand that one of the guys supposidly said he was trying to screw the company because hes pissed. Ive also talked with one or two of our union guys and its funny how some of the stories about some of these situations on FI differ from what the Union guys have told me. I support our pilot group 100%! But I'm not dumb enough to think we are all squeeky clean either!

 

[Clyde Frog]

I support our pilot group 100%! But I'm not dumb enough to think we are all squeeky clean either!

gt, it is really disheartening to hear one of our own talk like you do.

After all these years of being taken advantage of, all I have to say is fu(k MANAGEMENT!! They brought this resentment and ill will on themselves and they deserve what they get. Maybe now that their bonuses are being deflated they'll be a little more receptive at the negotiating table. I'm sick and tired of being strung along while watching their bonuses get bigger every year. Fu(k them.

I'll write a few checks to support the newest hostages just like I did DL, RM and the furloughees.

We're all in this together, fu(k playing fair, the gloves are off and I'm throwing haymakers.

 

[Malcolm]

gt, it is really disheartening to hear one of our own talk like you do.

After all these years of being taken advantage of, all I have to say is fu(k MANAGEMENT!! They brought this resentment and ill will on themselves and they deserve what they get. Maybe now that their bonuses are being deflated they'll be a little more receptive at the negotiating table. I'm sick and tired of being strung along while watching their bonuses get bigger every year. Fu(k them.

I'll write a checks to support the newest hostages just like I did DL, RM and the furloughees.

We're all in this together, fu(k playing fair, the gloves are off and I'm throwing haymakers.

I have nothing to add.... I just wanted to highlight the above quote in BOLD... because it needs repeating LOUDER to some of the AAI Pilots.

 

[Ty Webb]

Hey GT1900 . . . . have you ever crossed a picket line?

What would be your vote, if we took a strike vote tomorrow?

 

[gt1900]

Ty. Nope, I haven't. But, my vote would be a strike in a heartbeat! I voted down TA and I voted for ALPA.

However, the company hasn't had to string us along the last 2 years since the last TA. We did it to ourselves. The NPA was so busy fighting against themselves that the company could just sit back and laugh. You guys like to blame the company for everything. But our old union was just as much as fault. We should have been released a long time ago. But, unfortunately for us we spent the last 2 years fighting amongst ourselves while the company just sat back and watched. Now here we are 2 years later, finally negotiating again, and we are back at square 1. We are going to go through all the normal B.S. again. If you don't think that our old union takes some of the blame for this delay then I don't know what to tell you. The guys over at Alaska negotiated for 2 years. When the company started stalling the mediator threatened to realease them. Next thing you know, they had a new contract. We can't even get to the point of being released because our union was too busy hiring, firing, and calling the cops on eachother! Now that we have ALPA onboard we at least have some leadership and are making steps toward a contract. IMO I think its gonna take a strike vote and a threat of release to get a decent contract. Everytime Jetblue, Alaska, SWA, and others get a pay raise I just keep getting more expensive. If we don't get at least JB and AL wages, with a big signing bonus, I aint' voting for it. And if it comes to it, Ill buy the beer on the picket line!

 

[eaglesview]

Ty... Reading isn't really your strong point is it. I already said there was probably more to it then was stated. The assumption in the first place was that it was an AAI flight to CUN. It then came out as a flight to Mexico City. What I said was if it was legal to make the flight to CUN, then IMO it wouldn't be an issue.

Legal has nothing to do with safe. Put down the kool aid

 

[Ty Webb]

GT-1900:

Agreed. Glad to know that while we don't agree on a lot of things, we do agree on the most important stuff.

Ty. Nope, I haven't. But, my vote would be a strike in a heartbeat! I voted down TA and I voted for ALPA.

However, the company hasn't had to string us along the last 2 years since the last TA. We did it to ourselves. The NPA was so busy fighting against themselves that the company could just sit back and laugh. You guys like to blame the company for everything. But our old union was just as much as fault. We should have been released a long time ago. But, unfortunately for us we spent the last 2 years fighting amongst ourselves while the company just sat back and watched. Now here we are 2 years later, finally negotiating again, and we are back at square 1. We are going to go through all the normal B.S. again. If you don't think that our old union takes some of the blame for this delay then I don't know what to tell you. The guys over at Alaska negotiated for 2 years. When the company started stalling the mediator threatened to realease them. Next thing you know, they had a new contract. We can't even get to the point of being released because our union was too busy hiring, firing, and calling the cops on eachother! Now that we have ALPA onboard we at least have some leadership and are making steps toward a contract. IMO I think its gonna take a strike vote and a threat of release to get a decent contract. Everytime Jetblue, Alaska, SWA, and others get a pay raise I just keep getting more expensive. If we don't get at least JB and AL wages, with a big signing bonus, I aint' voting for it. And if it comes to it, Ill buy the beer on the picket line!

 

[Lear70]

Nice Avatar, Ty...

 

[Ty Webb]

You want a toe?

Nice Avatar, Ty...

You want a toe? I can get you a toe . . . . Hell, I can get you a toe by 3 o'clock this afternoon... with nail polish.

 

[Colonel Savage]

That is so undude.

 

[PCL_128]

Ty. Nope, I haven't. But, my vote would be a strike in a heartbeat! I voted down TA and I voted for ALPA.

However, the company hasn't had to string us along the last 2 years since the last TA. We did it to ourselves. The NPA was so busy fighting against themselves that the company could just sit back and laugh. You guys like to blame the company for everything. But our old union was just as much as fault. We should have been released a long time ago. But, unfortunately for us we spent the last 2 years fighting amongst ourselves while the company just sat back and watched. Now here we are 2 years later, finally negotiating again, and we are back at square 1. We are going to go through all the normal B.S. again. If you don't think that our old union takes some of the blame for this delay then I don't know what to tell you. The guys over at Alaska negotiated for 2 years. When the company started stalling the mediator threatened to realease them. Next thing you know, they had a new contract. We can't even get to the point of being released because our union was too busy hiring, firing, and calling the cops on eachother! Now that we have ALPA onboard we at least have some leadership and are making steps toward a contract. IMO I think its gonna take a strike vote and a threat of release to get a decent contract. Everytime Jetblue, Alaska, SWA, and others get a pay raise I just keep getting more expensive. If we don't get at least JB and AL wages, with a big signing bonus, I aint' voting for it. And if it comes to it, Ill buy the beer on the picket line!

Wow, we actually agree!

 

[gt1900]

Wow, we actually agree!

Not exactly! I only like good beer. If you like BL or Coors Light I aint buying. However, Blue Moon, Shiner, Alaskan Amber, and Widmer Hef are all on the list. If you have class, Ill buy!