More CAL

[IHaveAPension]

I am REALY ABOUT TO LOOSE MY F$CKING MIND reading this crap.

I just got my Social Security statement the other day.....you know what it said. It said I was employed by CONTINENTAL AIRLINES since 1997. I interviewed in 2002 and was accepted for a pilot slot at continental airlines.

Oh but now I'm not good enough to fly for CAL I have to wait in line a be hired behind the ATA pilot who flew as my FO at Express. And if I'm lucky someday I'll be added to the seniority list. Oh boy lucky me....thank you masta CAL.

I've so had it with CAL, The CAL pilot group and this freakin industry.

Boy, talk about being jealous because "your F/O" had the drive to get a real job and the misfortune of being furloughed. Obviously CAL wants pilots that have experience in the same or similar equipment that they currently fly, not some guy with time in an RJ.

 

[IHaveAPension]

This isn't about "lofty" qualifications. I only pointed out that these pilots have been flying for Continental Express for 8+ years so that people don't think these are 2nd year FO's looking for a freebie. Some have gone on to other airlines. Others chose to stay at XJT in order to go to CAL. The positive commitment letter from CAL management mandated that in order for them to be eligible to go to CAL, they MUST stay at XJT until they are called over (in seniority order). And most likely, nobody else from the XJT ranks will be interviewed by CAL until all of these pilots with letters go over.

Out of curiosity, what company do you work for now?

-Neal

ANYONE that would stay at CoEx with the expectation of going to CAL is either a total freaking moron or some loser that can't get a job at a major the proper way by applying and interviewing. Go somewhere where you will have a real career, real retirement, real big bucks pay and real job security because you sure as $hit aren't going to find it at CAL.

 

[mckpickle]

ANYONE that would stay at CoEx with the expectation of going to CAL is either a total freaking moron or some loser that can't get a job at a major the proper way by applying and interviewing. Go somewhere where you will have a real career, real retirement, real big bucks pay and real job security because you sure as $hit aren't going to find it at CAL.

You sir are a horses a$$. The reason why we stayed at Express was because we have already interviewed and been promissed a job at CAL. Now they are changing the rules. Lets face it. Someone at ATA is no more qualified to fly CAL passengers than I am. Except I've been doing it everyday for the last 8 1/2 years. Hired by a Continental Sub. Flying CAL passengers and told I would be a Continental Pilot. Now they are changing the rules. 8000 hours....over 5000 PIC turbine 121 hours, All over the US Canada and Mex. Flying CAL passengers, and doing it daamn well thank you.

 

[IHaveAPension]

You sir are a horses a$$. The reason why we stayed at Express was because we have already interviewed and been promissed a job at CAL. Now they are changing the rules. Lets face it. Someone at ATA is no more qualified to fly CAL passengers than I am. Except I've been doing it everyday for the last 8 1/2 years. Hired by a Continental Sub. Flying CAL passengers and told I would be a Continental Pilot. Now they are changing the rules. 8000 hours....over 5000 PIC turbine 121 hours, All over the US Canada and Mex. Flying CAL passengers, and doing it daamn well thank you.

Like I said in my above post, you are a freaking moron for putting you career on hold on the PROMISE from an airline's MANAGEMENT that they would keep a job open for you at SOME POINT IN THE FUTURE!!! If you are such the experienced airline pilot that you claim to be and you trust any airline's management you are a fool and you will fit in well at CAL after they get done hiring all the furloughed ATA and other major pilots ahead of you!

 

[jbDC9]

Go somewhere where you will have a real career, real retirement, real big bucks pay and real job security because you sure as $hit aren't going to find it at CAL.

Okay then Mr. Wizard... where might this Holy Grail airline be? Care to share the name with us? It ain't happening at the "legacy" carriers, those days are long gone... that leaves FDX, UPS and SWA. Can't get in at FDX without a sponsor, so rule that out. Might need Space Shuttle time to get in at UPS, who knows... and everybody's in line to try for SWA. Might take awhile to burn thru that stack of resumes.

I usually don't agree with Mr Pickle, but in this case, he's right; you sound like a horse's ass with comments like that. I'm guessing from your profile that you went from the military straight to FDX... in which case your post makes you sound like a spoiled primma donna and don't have a clue about what the rest of us civilian "pukes" have to go through to get a decent job. It's not as easy as you make it out to be. Yep, just go somewhere where you will have a real career, real retirement, real big bucks pay and real job security. You betcha, I'm gonna get right on that...

Dork.

 

[boxjockey]

He just registered on this forum in April after 12000 hours flying? I think it's just a poor loser, who can't get any ass, trying to raise some pulses because he doesn't have anything else to do.

box

 

[Captain Overs]

I guess the moral of the story is: Go work for a crappy airline that will go out of business so then you will have the doors open up at many airlines instead of working hard and applying like everyone else!


You ATA guys need to get a grip. You had a pref interview at AWA, CAL, and I believe SWA if you met the mins. You probably didn't meet the mins at SWA because you don't need any experience to get hired at ATA. Your airlines was crap. Quit crying about not getting a fair shake at CAL. I wouldn't hire any of you.

 

[1800 RVR]

Get your story straight...

Hey Captain Overs,

Before you go knocking ATA pilots, you better know who you are talking about. NOT ONE post prior to this one has been from an ATA pilot. We are not sitting here and complaining about this stuff. NO ONE from the furloughed ATA group has even started interviewing!! The couple of people who have interviews got them because their CAL friends went to their CPs and went to bat for them.

I understand what is angering some folks, and I agree - if they were hired but not in class, yes, absolutely they should be first. Our opportunity to get pref interviews was a negotiated benefit in their concessions package by the CAL pilot group. They didn't have to do it - but they did and we are grateful. But we don't have a bone in this fight. Mother CAL is calling the shots.

So lay off the ATA bashing!

1800 RVR

P.S. I'm not going to stoop as low as you and call your airline crap. Bad kharma has a way of finding you. If you have a problem with us, get over it.

 

[AA717driver]

'Hey! You f***'ed up. You trusted us...'

Here's something to remember: Never believe what an airline says it will do in the future. Never believe what an airline tells you you will be flying in the future. However long they say it will take you to make captain, double it.

You've been waiting 8 years at XJT for "your" job at CAL? You "should" be getting hired soon. You've "earned" it.

None of the above "guarantees" you a job at CAL. None of the promises made to any of us at any time in our careers are guaranteed. No one owes any of us anything. It's a sad fact of life in this business these days. JMO. TC

 

[Flopgut]

Neal:

I am certainly not trying to endear myself to you, nor am I trying to offend you. By stating "the likes of you" I am saying you and your contemporaries at XJT, thats all.
-------------------
This thread is a very good one for pilots wishing to come to CAL to read. For those of you interested who will be hired off the street: You cannot imagine the ambush of contempt and disdain you are walking into. It won't matter what your background is or how hard you have worked to get your shot. From day one, the greenest XJT FO will curse the air you breath. Most CAL FOs have more years/hours professional experience than the sum total of the average XJT crew (perhaps even including the airplane they are in). The same is true for CAL pilot candidates that are off the street, the only thing that draws down this average is if you factor in the XJT flow throughs.

When you look at the history of this, I don't think you could find another major airline that has hired more pilots from its regional affiliate. The FTA did great things for a lot of pilots for a long time and I hope it continues. But the fact is, XJT pilots could care less what it has done in the past and what it could do in the future, they want it all and they want it right now. I hope those 236 get flowed into CAL hiring in a fashion silmiliar to the previous methodology, and that the company can build on it. And I hope they are all smart enough to at least try to work other places! Some of these pilots could go to FDX! They can't turn everyone down, come on! It has to be at least as much fun to make all that money as it is to mope around sucking on a lemon hoping CAL pilots die early!

 

[Cactus73]

Neal:

I am certainly not trying to endear myself to you, nor am I trying to offend you. By stating "the likes of you" I am saying you and your contemporaries at XJT, thats all.
-------------------
This thread is a very good one for pilots wishing to come to CAL to read. For those of you interested who will be hired off the street: You cannot imagine the ambush of contempt and disdain you are walking into. It won't matter what your background is or how hard you have worked to get your shot. From day one, the greenest XJT FO will curse the air you breath. Most CAL FOs have more years/hours professional experience than the sum total of the average XJT crew (perhaps even including the airplane they are in). The same is true for CAL pilot candidates that are off the street, the only thing that draws down this average is if you factor in the XJT flow throughs.

When you look at the history of this, I don't think you could find another major airline that has hired more pilots from its regional affiliate. The FTA did great things for a lot of pilots for a long time and I hope it continues. But the fact is, XJT pilots could care less what it has done in the past and what it could do in the future, they want it all and they want it right now. I hope those 236 get flowed into CAL hiring in a fashion silmiliar to the previous methodology, and that the company can build on it. And I hope they are all smart enough to at least try to work other places! Some of these pilots could go to FDX! They can't turn everyone down, come on! It has to be at least as much fun to make all that money as it is to mope around sucking on a lemon hoping CAL pilots die early!

My being on the outside now, I can see things in a more objective way. I must say Flopgut, you have no idea what you are talking about.

When I was hired at COEX I was told that I just needed to put in my time and eventually I will be at CAL. I drank the kool-aid and was the happiest FO ever. Guys were leaving to CAL and the list was moving. But far more were leaving for United, American, Northwest, Southwest, etc...CAL was running smaller classes than the above mentioned airlines and was only taking 1 COEX guy for every three off the street hires. But no one complained because guys were upgrading on the EMB-120's in less than 6 months and the RJ was holding at about 1 year. Things were good.

During this time COEX management briefed us on their plan to spin off COEX into a new company called ExpressJet Holdings, via an IPO. They told us that this deal would end all flow through agreements and we would become our own company with different benefits.

9/11 happened and they shelved the IPO due to the economic conditions of the airline business. During this time Continental elected to furlough a significant amount of pilots that were hired mostly after 1998. 928 pilots were eligible for the flowback. Only a third of these guys came from COEX.

They flowed back to our left seats and sent many of us back to the right seat on reserve in EWR. 400+ COEX guys hit the street on furlough.

CAL needed cash and decided to proceed with the IPO. As a bone to a small portion of the XJT seniority list, they offered to interview a small number of pilots that were hired before July 1998 (someone correct me if I have this date wrong). They flat our rejected a number of very qualified ERJ CA's. 200+ guys were accepted and given letters offering them employment at CAL once hiring resumed. These guys are now known as the PIG's.

NOTHING was offered to the vast majority of the seniority list that gave up quite a bit up to and including their JOBS in order to honor the flow through/back agreement.

Their peers at other airlines like CHQ, MESA, Skywest, etc... were all upgrading after 2-3 years (even after 9/11) but the XJT guys went backwards.

Fast forward to today. CAL is hiring again. Now they are playing games with these PIG pilots and taking them in ratios. Once again they are hurting the careers of the junior XJT pilots and the PIG pilots.

I was fortunate in that I was able to leave XJT for AWA at this time. I am eligible and was offered an interview at CAL. I think this is wrong that I can jump the list if I were to be hired ahead of people that were promised jobs. I think it is even more wrong for "off-the-street" guys to jump ahead of these guys. FWIW, I know of only one AWA pilot that has taken the offer and is leaving for CAL (no it's not me).

The XJT guys have thousands of hours of PIC time flying passengers in the CAL system. They all gave up quite a bit to enable CAL furloughed pilots to work at XJT and fly the left seat during their furlough.

To say that there are more qualified people and that CAL is justified in taking off the street guys is missing the point. Yes, CAL has the right to do this, but it doesn't make it right. The XJT guys have put up with a lot since 911. The least CAL management can do is to honor their promise to this small group of pilots. When I hired on at AWA, they stressed the importance of integrity. CAL management seems to lack this quality.

All I ask is that you put yourself in the shoes of the 6 year XJT FO or the PIG pilot before passing judgment.

I know I have.

 

[Flopgut]

Cactus:

I can tell you exactly what it is like to be an off the street hire at CAL and I am absolutely not confused about the situation here.

If I were a PIG or six year XJT pilot I would have a 50 percent increased likelihood of employment by CAL than someone with more than twice my qualifications.

There are far too many former XJT pilots who are working at CAL for all your assertions to be right. Do not make a mockery of what has been a great deal for a lot of pilots just because it has not come quick enough for you. Patience.

On the other hand, why leave XJT? You just got a great raise. CAL has ordained you regional of choice for gutting the airline. Why not stay, ride it out for a while. Have you even considered that perhaps the real payback in all this is the growth and industry leading contract at XJT?

 

[Cactus73]

Cactus:

I can tell you exactly what it is like to be an off the street hire at CAL and I am absolutely not confused about the situation here.

If I were a PIG or six year XJT pilot I would have a 50 percent increased likelihood of employment by CAL than someone with more than twice my qualifications.

There are far too many former XJT pilots who are working at CAL for all your assertions to be right. Do not make a mockery of what has been a great deal for a lot of pilots just because it has not come quick enough for you. Patience.

On the other hand, why leave XJT? You just got a great raise. CAL has ordained you regional of choice for gutting the airline. Why not stay, ride it out for a while. Have you even considered that perhaps the real payback in all this is the growth and industry leading contract at XJT?

Why are you telling me to have patience? I left XJT for a major airline. Yes, even though you probably look down on us, AWA is a major airline and our 737-300's came off the same production floor as yours. Why did I leave XJT? Are you kidding me? I'm making more money in my second year here at AWA than I would as a Captain at XJT. I have more days off and fly a better schedule. Not to mention I live in the city I want to live and drive to work. We also have a defined contribution retirement plan. I also left XJT way before the new contract was signed. Before the USAir merger I was expecting an upgrade in 6-7 years.

I'm not making a mockery of the flow-through. I'm just giving you a viewpoint you may not get in the cockpit of a CAL airplane.

As for there being way too many XJT people at CAL for my numbers to be right...you need to study a little more history here.

Before Contract 97, there was a different flow through agreement that brought over a lot of guys from Continental Express to mainline Continental. Many were given CAL seniority numbers when they hired on at Express and flew the B1900 and ATR. These guys were in a program called the Pilot Development Program. This was a totally separate program than the flow through agreement that was negotiated in Contract 97.

Only about 300 Continental Express guys came over in the flow-through agreement. An additional 113 or so came over recently as they were part of this agreement. The PIGS are a totally separate group.

The Contract 97 XJT guys suffered quite a bit to provide jobs for furloughed CAL pilots post 9/11. I flew with many of these guys and they were great people that appreciated the opportunity they were given. I doubt many have changed their minds since they returned to CAL (at least I hope not).

I saw a lot of people go to the street in this. Very few CAL pilots involuntarily went to the street. They either chose to not take the XJT job or were too junior to hold a position at XJT if they did.

CAL owes it to the PIGS to bring them over in one big group. You will never get me to change my mind.

 

[Captain Overs]

Hey Captain Overs,

Before you go knocking ATA pilots, you better know who you are talking about. NOT ONE post prior to this one has been from an ATA pilot. We are not sitting here and complaining about this stuff. NO ONE from the furloughed ATA group has even started interviewing!! The couple of people who have interviews got them because their CAL friends went to their CPs and went to bat for them.

I understand what is angering some folks, and I agree - if they were hired but not in class, yes, absolutely they should be first. Our opportunity to get pref interviews was a negotiated benefit in their concessions package by the CAL pilot group. They didn't have to do it - but they did and we are grateful. But we don't have a bone in this fight. Mother CAL is calling the shots.

So lay off the ATA bashing!

You have no idea who is on this board, as I don't either. So don't tell me who posts and who doesn't.

 

[Flopgut]

Cactus:

Don't project your petty bullsh!t way of looking at things onto me. I have many friends over there. You are probably flying with some of them, they have been there for a while. Great outfit, I hope Parker has his head screwed on right and things go well.

We have two different perspectives here, and I think you are doing a good job of helping me illustrate my point. I don't care by what means it has happened in the past, there are a lot of XJT pilots at CAL. It has been a good thing, I think it should continue. The ingredients are in place for "FTA like" hiring to continue, would you want it ruined for the want of a certain type of treatment for a few when it could help many [all]? If CAL takes all 236 at once, the next 1236 will want the same. Actually, they will want a better deal.

My point is--We need to verbalize the whole situation to CAL interview participants. The relationship with XJT is a complex one and can catch you off guard. Some will be making a decision between multiple opportunities and this may come to bear.

 

[scarlet]

CAL doesn't even our their own people. I have been there 10 years as FA and now have the time, and nothing. But just let you guys know, things have slowed WAY down. They have reserves that are not flying due to the new contract, people are picking up open time to make up the difference. They are going to a new bidding system and they think that they may not need many more pilots. So if you do go there, you better love GUAM or NEWARK.

Rumor and just a Rumor right now-they are looking for a buyer for the Air Mic. flying out of Guam, then all those guys will come back to the mainland.

Not sure what is going to happen

 

[nimtz]

Neal:

This thread is a very good one for pilots wishing to come to CAL to read. For those of you interested who will be hired off the street: You cannot imagine the ambush of contempt and disdain you are walking into. It won't matter what your background is or how hard you have worked to get your shot. From day one, the greenest XJT FO will curse the air you breath. Most CAL FOs have more years/hours professional experience than the sum total of the average XJT crew (perhaps even including the airplane they are in). The same is true for CAL pilot candidates that are off the street, the only thing that draws down this average is if you factor in the XJT flow throughs.

Simple and wrong conclusion to make. You obviously have a chip on your shoulder about XJT probably cause you still mumble 'they stole our flying' every now and then. An off the street guy is hardly going to be looked down on by our group. For crying out loud many at XJT who are not PIGs have applied at CAL. Do you really think 'the greenest XJT FO' is going to give them evil stares? We all know how this business works and certainly don't blame an off the street guy for getting a sought after job. It sure isn't there fault that CAL offered it to them. It's CAL's fault for ignoring my colleagues. The vast majority of us don't take frustrations out on individuals like the 'I hate the barbie jet' types that exist at some places.

I see you are calling out the experience level of the XJT flowthrough guys. Dude seriously give it a rest. Those guys have been 121 captains for at least six years with 2 maybe 3 types. Anybody with that much time and a clean record will make it just fine as an airline pilot anywhere.

When you look at the history of this, I don't think you could find another major airline that has hired more pilots from its regional affiliate. The FTA did great things for a lot of pilots for a long time and I hope it continues. But the fact is, XJT pilots could care less what it has done in the past and what it could do in the future, they want it all and they want it right now. I hope those 236 get flowed into CAL hiring in a fashion silmiliar to the previous methodology, and that the company can build on it. And I hope they are all smart enough to at least try to work other places! Some of these pilots could go to FDX! They can't turn everyone down, come on!

What we want is for our colleagues that were hired by CAL to go to CAL. I know they are just simple RJ pilots and all, but somebody at CAL thought they were worthy of letters of hire in 2002. Call me greedy, but somehow it makes sense that those hired first should be offered class dates first especially when we're talking about three years difference. How you misconstrue this as indicative of a greedy pilot group I don't understand.

All you guys make light of the PIGs not being smart enough to go elsewhere. Well guess what they already either live or commute to CAL domiciles and are overly familiar with how the company works. For most it was alot easier on the home life to wait out CAL rather then go elsewhere. I told as many of as I could to be wary of CAL screwing them and get there stuff out elsewhere. Guess my lack of faith was good thinking.

After the PIGS there will be no relationship between XJT and CAL. That was decided long ago and part of the settlement of the FTA termination was the pref interviews for the PIGs. I will apply to CAL, but consider my current XJT employment to be a major disadvantage. Yeah sure sounds like we want everything.

It has to be at least as much fun to make all that money as it is to mope around sucking on a lemon hoping CAL pilots die early!

Give me a break. Most flowbacks I flew with knew attrition at CAL so well that they knew immediately if anybody had lost their medical that week. Again sorry about the RJ thing and didn't want to 'steal' the flying. It did more damage to my career then yours.

 

[Boeingman]

This is exactly what the company wants. To divide and create animosity between factions within the pilot group. For both present and future hires.

 

[Cactus73]

Cactus:

Don't project your petty bullsh!t way of looking at things onto me. I have many friends over there. You are probably flying with some of them, they have been there for a while. Great outfit, I hope Parker has his head screwed on right and things go well.

We have two different perspectives here, and I think you are doing a good job of helping me illustrate my point. I don't care by what means it has happened in the past, there are a lot of XJT pilots at CAL. It has been a good thing, I think it should continue. The ingredients are in place for "FTA like" hiring to continue, would you want it ruined for the want of a certain type of treatment for a few when it could help many [all]? If CAL takes all 236 at once, the next 1236 will want the same. Actually, they will want a better deal.

Sorry you feel I have a petty bullsh!t way of looking at things. I don't have a stake in this battle. I don't want to come to CAL and am not looking for a job there. I also no longer work for XJT. I'm giving my opinion as a former XJT pilot looking in from the outside.

The FTA is dead and it isn't likely that there will be a new one. For years now CAL has stated that they want to separate themselves completely from XJT. My only point in this whole thing is that the PIG pilots should be taken over before any new off the street new hires. That's it!

You are being a typical paranoid me, me, me, guy if you are worried that the next 1236 guys at XJT are going to want the same.

Personally, I don't really favor FTA agreements because they are difficult to formulate and make fair to all. XJT guys have no FTA agreement but they aren't even allowed to apply at CAL because of the preferential interview system that you guys agreed to. We have a lot of MESA guys here at AWA and they were hired from all different spots on the MESA seniority list. They were hired on their merits.

I'm not trying to get into an agrument with you Flopguy, just offering a different viewpoint. Take it or leave it, I don't really care.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

The ingredients are in place for "FTA like" hiring to continue, would you want it ruined for the want of a certain type of treatment for a few when it could help many [all]? If CAL takes all 236 at once, the next 1236 will want the same. Actually, they will want a better deal.

This simply isn't true. The difference between the guys in the PIP group and the pilots covered under LOA 41-1 is that the guys in the PIP group passed an interview process over 2 1/2 years ago. Anyone hired going forward would full well know the deal ahead of time. This is a critical distinction in the two different groups here. You are making broad stroked assumptions and we both know what "assuming" does. You are mixing issues here. This isn't about anything going forward...a totally separate issue.

-Neal