More Age 60 perspective

[m80drvr]

That said ask me about the 63 yr old guy I took a ride with in a very fast citation jet. I was single pilot on my pic portion and single pilot on his pic portion. I did the box on BOTH rides. While I working an emergency on his PIC portion we got 300 BELOW MDA. He had no clue. I had to talk him through the whole ride, no joke. It was bloody. He had been on the plane for YEARS. I'm not slamming the guy but he should have retired years ago, he knew it and I knew it. Just because you have flown with guys that are spot on does not deminish the fact that declining skills can happen Very fast above age 60. Even in between first class physicals.

Same dude tried to take off on the centerline lights on a runway with me in the right seat. Thing is there were NO centerline lights on that runway. (Think about it)Thank god the brakes work well and their were no pax. I think the tower heard me screaming at him to STOOOOOOPPPPP...... I thought he was making a wide md80 turn till he poured the coals to it. Then he blamed me for the whole thing. Something to the effect that he knew what he was doing. yada yada yada. That made me laugh.

Sorry guys, I've flown with too many over 60 guys that were weak. Yes I also flew with many that were great but should we or the paying public hope that the Geezer in the left seat is one of the 50 % that is still on his game? Don't think so. Not on my ticket and not with my family in back.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

as professional pilots should know, always have a plan B. Not just a B Plan. Too bad, you had your shot and you blew it. Get out of the way and let a furloughed guy, in real crisis get his job back.

Would that guy "in real crisis" be you? When you got in this industry, you knew that furloughs do happen, right? So how did your Plan B for your furlough work out?

Hope you're not in a "crisis"

Tejas

 

[Purpled]

Would that guy "in real crisis" be you? When you got in this industry, you knew that furloughs do happen, right? So how did your Plan B for your furlough work out?

Hope you're not in a "crisis"

Tejas

He's not asking that the law/rules be changed to his advantage. That's markedly different. Don't take opportunity out of his pocket, just to put it in yours...if you are supporting the change.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

That said ask me about the 63 yr old guy I took a ride with in a very fast citation jet. I was single pilot on my pic portion and single pilot on his pic portion. I did the box on BOTH rides. While I working an emergency on his PIC portion we got 300 BELOW MDA. He had no clue. I had to talk him through the whole ride, no joke. It was bloody. He had been on the plane for YEARS. I'm not slamming the guy but he should have retired years ago, he knew it and I knew it. Just because you have flown with guys that are spot on does not deminish the fact that declining skills can happen Very fast above age 60. Even in between first class physicals.

Same dude tried to take off on the centerline lights on a runway with me in the right seat. Thing is there were NO centerline lights on that runway. (Think about it)Thank god the brakes work well and their were no pax. I think the tower heard me screaming at him to STOOOOOOPPPPP...... I thought he was making a wide md80 turn till he poured the coals to it. Then he blamed me for the whole thing. Something to the effect that he knew what he was doing. yada yada yada. That made me laugh.

Sorry guys, I've flown with too many over 60 guys that were weak. Yes I also flew with many that were great but should we or the paying public hope that the Geezer in the left seat is one of the 50 % that is still on his game? Don't think so. Not on my ticket and not with my family in back.

Well, you've convinced me! Nobody should be allowed to pilot a transport-category aircraft past the age of 60.

Now let me tell you about my last SVT. I had an F/O that was so weak, that...well...I won't bore you with the details. But he was weak.

And...he was from TEXAS.

Your post set me to thinking about how many other guys I've known who were from Texas, and how many of them were weak. Quite a few, actually. Oh, most were pretty good, but some were bad, and who wants to take a chance when lives are at stake?

Some of the worst airline disasters in history have occured in Texas. Others have happened in other places when pilots who lived, or learned to fly, in Texas were at the controls.

Where did the Space Shuttle Columbia blow-up? Why, Texas, of course!

C'mon...the evidence is everywhere! You can't tell me there's no connection between all these disasters, and the state of Texas, can you?

So...we'll leave the retirement age at 60. That alone won't address the problem of the younger guys not upgrading fast enough, but it will keep our skies safe from doddering old guys like Al Haines and Dick Rutan.

The other thing we'll do is deny (or revoke) airman certificates issued to anybody who listed Texas as their state of residence on, say, "January 1st of this year." THAT will help junior guys at virtually every airline, (especially Southwest) upgrade more quickly. (Which, after all, is what this is really all about anyway, right?)

Of course, if your upgrade doesn't come quickly enough to suit you, we can always take a look at those guys from Florida. I hear they're a real weak bunch, too...

 

[jetpilotjay]

age 60

m80drvr,

You're absolutly right, it is a crap shoot, you just don't know. There are a lot of clueless younger guys too. A cognitive test would probably be a good idea at some point in everyone's career. I'm 32 now, but I hope when the time comes, I'll know when to say when. It'll be hard, even on the worst days, there's nothing else I'd rather do. There are those guys flying that that probably shouldn't be(young and old). Be nice if their were an avenue to let them know they shouldn't. My grandfather is the perfect example of not knowing when its time to stop. He was just a private pilot, but he was sharp in his day. When I was little, I flew with him everywhere. He sold his Bellanca Super Viking in the late 70's and didn't fly whole lot in the 80's, but kept current. In the late 80's he had a couple of mild strokes, they didn't affect him physically. You could tell though, that something wasn't quite right. My father bought an archer in the early 90's and would let my grandpa fly with him. He would get so flustered with the radio's, he never used to. Things that used to come so natural, just really confused him or he had to stop and think about it. It just wasn't safe. We knew he could never take the plane alone. He was more than capable of passing a medical, based on physical condition alone, but we had to stop him. It would have been nice for us not to have had to be the bad guys. It would have been nice for the medical examiner to have some test for the mind as well as body. When it comes to cognitive ability, we ALL self certify. My only point was to not lump everyone together. Like you said, it's a 50/50 shot. But that's true with alot of people you fly with. I guess the real answer to the safety issue would be to know how many pilot error accidents are due to age related shortcomings.

 

[jetpilotjay]

Whistlin' Dan makes a good point, on more than one occasion it's been a senior guy there to save the day.

P.S. that was hillarious about Texas

 

[Sluggo_63]

So then...

I don't think you'd find many guys with a decent pension wanting the age changed. Those guys who were banking on a fat retirement however, only to have it yanked by even greedier management types, probably want the rule changed. Heck, they might even NEED it changed. I'm seeing a thread here pointing to greed by those approaching 60, yet how many oppose it simply b/c it delays their own fat paycheck or thier own selfish desire to retire when they want to? Personally, I'd like to retire at 60. I've got over 20 years to change my mind, however. You should have the ability to work in America to whatever age you'd like - but only to the extent you're not dangerous. If 60+ guys can pass a rigorous physical every 6 mos, handle the training and the sims, then they should get to keep flying.

So, all these 58+ year old pilots want what's right and good since they had the misfortune of having their pensions yanked. I'm sure when all these guys/gals were 43-45 years old in 1990-1991, they were very concerned about how all of the now out-of-work and out-of-a-pension pilots from Eastern and Pan Am were going to recoup all of their pension losses. I'm sure these then-younger pilots lobbied their airline and union to put all out of work Eastern/Pan Am pilots ahead of them on their seniority lists, to 'help them out.' I'm sure it would have been fine with this group of selfless aviators... delaying their upgrades and pay raises so those poor pilots who were out of work could earn back what was so greedily taken from them. That's how it worked then... didn't it?

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

So, all these 58+ year old pilots want what's right and good since they had the misfortune of having their pensions yanked. I'm sure when all these guys/gals were 43-45 years old in 1990-1991, they were very concerned about how all of the now out-of-work and out-of-a-pension pilots from Eastern and Pan Am were going to recoup all of their pension losses. I'm sure these then-younger pilots lobbied their airline and union to put all out of work Eastern/Pan Am pilots ahead of them on their seniority lists, to 'help them out.' I'm sure it would have been fine with this group of selfless aviators... delaying their upgrades and pay raises so those poor pilots who were out of work could earn back what was so greedily taken from them. That's how it worked then... didn't it?

Noooo... that's NOT the way it worked then. The way it worked then was that those of us who had jobs, did what we could to secure interviews for our friends who had been displaced from the airlines you mentioned. We didn't "delay upgrades" on their behalf, because we had no say in the matter. We did what we could.

Not once did I hear anybody say to a displaced pilot, "Why should I help you? You knew what you were getting into when you took the job at Pan Am/Eastern/Braniff/TWA/US Air," or wherever. We certainly didn't gloat over their misfortune, nor hold ourselves as somewhat "superior of intellect" because we'd had the foresight to somehow know that their airline was doomed to failure, while ours was not.

As for "putting [them] ahead of us on our seniority lists," that has no bearing on this argument. Nothing in the move to repeal the "Age 60 rule" changes anybody's relative seniority one bit. True, it does keep guys at every strata of the seniority list for an additional 5 years, but that's only because the seniority list is, in theory, 5 years longer than it was. They'll get an additional 5 years at the top of the list, when their earning potential is at it's highest.

And of course, nobody is mandating that every pilot work those additional 5 years. When your 401K is fat enough to take care of you, you can hang up your Ray-Bans, buy a boat, and go smoke dope if you like. Working to age 65 becomes an option, that's all.

If this apparent notion that "pilots are not 'entitled' to anything more than they could reasonably expect at the time they joined their airline" has any merit, then a LOT of people are in for a rude awakening. Northwest 747 Captains, for example, who started out at Republic when the biggest airplane they flew was a DC-9. Or the Fed Ex guys who started out in Falcon 20's, with no idea that 727's would be coming along a few years further down the road. And of course, anybody who joined a non-ALPA carrier whose pilot group later voted for representation.

Of all the key issues that have received special attention from pilot groups and negotiating committees over the years, repeal of the age 60 rule is probably the most egalitarian. It surprises me that pilots, who are supposed to be accustomed to "situational awareness" and "thinking ahead," are so behind the knowledge curve on this issue.

 

[pilotyip]

WslnDan, nice touch. You took it away from the what's in it for me slant of most age 60 threads.

 

[Purpled]

Having to wait that 5 years is not a trivial consequence. You get more now, others have to wait 5 years to get it. That's wrong.