Money for nothing, copilots for free

[indefinitehold]

I did not expect him to reply.

However, if you have been on this blog long enough you know that you can get a hell of a rise out of some people.

Well at least we tried.

 

[jetpilotbc]

Don't call it work if you are going to pay for training and then pay for a job...go by your own airplane.

 

[bizjet800]

Unfortunately, this is all boils down to l supply and demand! It really comes down to finding just one person "willing and able" to take this position--and these days he will find someone. No doubt most of us took a job at the start of our career for peanuts just to gain some experience.

What is also comes down to is this: When you shop for goods or services do you always go for the lowest price? Do you care what that person building your car is making? What about that airline ticket? Do you care if your gardener lives in a one bedroom apartment with 10 others as long as he mows and weeds each week for $40? So why should we be so upset when an owner tries to get something for the cheapest price possible? Is it because we think we are immune from such actions? I am just as guilty as everyone on this issue, all I am saying is what goes around comes around.

 

[pilot error]

Unfortunately, this is all boils down to l supply and demand! It really comes down to finding just one person "willing and able" to take this position--and these days he will find someone. No doubt most of us took a job at the start of our career for peanuts just to gain some experience.

What is also comes down to is this: When you shop for goods or services do you always go for the lowest price? Do you care what that person building your car is making? What about that airline ticket? Do you care if your gardener lives in a one bedroom apartment with 10 others as long as he mows and weeds each week for $40? So why should we be so upset when an owner tries to get something for the cheapest price possible? Is it because we think we are immune from such actions? I am just as guilty as everyone on this issue, all I am saying is what goes around comes around.

a crap gardener kills your lawn, not you.

 

[wildcard]

I'M Beside myself how some people would ever do something like that, I understand the arguement. I was a low time pilot once and tried to build time in a twin. The owner I worked for said to me to build time like everyone else. One hour at a time! That has stuck to me. Beside all of us on here even the low time guys will later learn. Work to Live, Not Live to Work!

 

[Ty Webb]

I'll bet it's a great job . . . . Obviously, the Chief Pilot (mmmmfff!) is a stand-up guy who has done a great job of developing the respect of the Owner :laugh:.

Training a CFI in the airplane, showing up for occasional duty . .. At least there's real safety with a second pilot like that, and not just window dressing

 

[Grey Ghost]

Its funny how he has kept quiet on here ever since he posted this!:bawling:

 

["v"]

whoever takes a job without pay is killing the industry. If 1 operator does it another will follow, and another and then it will be accepted by the operators as acceptable. Who wants to see our pay/QOL stay the same? I know I'd prefer them to get better!

If times are that tough then why are people working for free??

my 2c

 

[CheeseDick]

I bet it's not the owner who is balking at the pay.

It's probably an old pilot. He refers to himself as the chief pilot even though no one else works there...And he wants an FO for busier airspace...But he tells the boss he can find someone who just wants experience.

My guess is the blame rests on the pilot.

 

[Freight Dog]

My guess is the blame rests on the pilot.

Of course it does... actually, it ALWAYS does.

I'll take it a step further too:

Care to guess how many corporate pilots refuse to let the right seater fly the plane? The most common excuse is - the owner doesn't want anyone but me flying the plane. That in and of itself is the failure of the pilot/chief pilot to educate the boss on benefits of having two fully qualified pilots up there. This 'free copilot' crap really isn't any different.

 

[BoilerUP]

Care to guess how many corporate pilots refuse to let the right seater fly the plane?

More than should, but not as many as internet postings might lead one to believe.

 

[timeless]

Unfortunately, this is all boils down to l supply and demand! It really comes down to finding just one person "willing and able" to take this position--and these days he will find someone. No doubt most of us took a job at the start of our career for peanuts just to gain some experience.

What is also comes down to is this: When you shop for goods or services do you always go for the lowest price? Do you care what that person building your car is making? What about that airline ticket? Do you care if your gardener lives in a one bedroom apartment with 10 others as long as he mows and weeds each week for $40? So why should we be so upset when an owner tries to get something for the cheapest price possible? Is it because we think we are immune from such actions? I am just as guilty as everyone on this issue, all I am saying is what goes around comes around.

Exactly. Capitalism has it's downsides, but I'll take it over the impending wave of socialism any day.

 

[Galaxy]

Company:Confidential Position:Citation Bravo "SIC" Non-Paid Position Type:Flight Crew Location:Scottsdale AZ Salary:Expenses Only
Description:We are currently seeking a part –time, on demand SIC for our Citation Bravo part 91 operation. Captain is single pilot qualified but we occasionally have trips that our bosses prefer to have two pilots aboard. This is time-building / learning / traveling opportunity and is NOT PAID. ALL expenses are covered including 4 star hotels, meals, rental cars, and other fun opportunities! We usually fly one leg / day and the flights are for the most part short and easy and fun. This is an awesome opportunity for CFI’s who are looking to get into Jets or for someone looking to stay current until they find their next job. No jet experience required. Could turn into a full time position in a larger aircraft if this economy comes around! We provide in-house training. Our primary destinations include: SoCal, LAS, SLC, AUS, TEB DO NOT APPLY IF YOU DO NOT LIVE IN ARIZONA! Please send a current pilot resume to [email protected]

Wow, I am sure you guys have filled his email box FULL. I don't agre with working for free either-but lets put this in perspective. The guy is single pilot qualified on a jet that is single pilot certified. I see it as he already has the job in which the plane owner has what he wants-1 pilot-1 plane. Single pilot insurance is NOT cheap-it is usually cheaper to hire a paid co-pilot instead. I doubt the boss actually asked for a second pilot for free-it is more like they could care less and buying the guy a hotel and meals to keep the paid help happy-is dirt cheap. If the personalities get along the guy did say it could turn into something more down the road wih a plane that is certified for two pilots. I feel this guy is trying to help some low time pilot by getting them jet time and keeping himself from the perverbial single pilot trip boredom. I know when I had no jet time it was impossible to get a job with a jet--so what do you do? I remember begging for time in Navajo's and King Air's willing to do whatever-where-ever to get time I couldn't possibly afford to buy. I guess all the guys blasting him got luckier than I and walked into a company with minimum time and got that sweet job in a big jet.
I personally don't need or want the position but I guess I see how he is offering an opportunity not a job. I suppose everyone did the Internships in college and got paid the BIG bucks. It is not like the guy is selling the seat off.

 

[Kingairrick]

What this guy is doing is misleading whomever takes this position. I'll wager his "in house" training consists of: "Here's the FOM and an old FlightSafety manual. Let me know what your questions are. Oh, yeah, everyone trains their FOs this way." He probably wont even get to do three bounces because, and here's the real point, legally speaking, he's a PASSENGER occupying the right seat.
No loggy the time, no gainy any real experience, except for radio skills. I'm sure this single pilot's CRM skills are up to snuff too.
Sadly, there will be takers. Hopefully, they will meet contacts through being involved that will lead them to a real job with someone. That is the only benefit I can see for them. They will be pissed when they figure out they were played by a bottom feeder.

Fly91: I get your point about doing what you have to do to survive. But doing it by undercutting others is not cool. There are furloughed airline pilots flying 210s freight doggin' right now. Good for them. But they didn't get the job by doing it for less than the other freight dogs. That's the difference here.

 

[Galaxy]

Well, I don't see what is misleading. The ad states that the applicant is not required, will not get paid, and will have expenses covered. If the guy logs it-that is his problem. I am sure it will get him more contacts being there than sitting at the flight school. As for the training-well-you said it best when you called him a passenger--passengers do not need much training. I think you get what you pay for-if you pay zero-you can't get pissed when the guy suddenly leaves to go to another operator-it's just expected. After all do you have to quit a job that you don't really have? The training-you are probably right-but we don't know this guy may be looking to rekindle his old CFI skills and pass on his knowledge-who knows.

In these tough times when airline guys are flying C210's. Well the target applicant this guy is trying for still can't apply for a 135 IFR job due to his TT. So the poor guy has to envy the C210 crappy pay freight job and has to settle for free experience in a jet. They got the job at the C210 place because they had the time. I know folks at these gigs and they really don't like hiring airline guys because they know when they get the call to go back-they are gone as quick as they arrived and the freight still has to move. It is a crappy economy with a field of work that promotes shady behavior anyway. I don't expect it to change anytime soon. All the guys I made fun of for PFT and buying zero time type ratings all went on to great jobs. I did not and struggled for every honest hour and hard earned dollar. At least I have my dignity while I drive my Ford and eat my ramen noodles. lol.

 

[Kingairrick]

the misleading parts are the statements about time building and staying current. As a passenger he or she can do neither...

 

[BoilerUP]

the misleading parts are the statements about time building and staying current. As a passenger he or she can do neither...

If the PIC has a current 61.58 and the SIC has received 61.55 training, I do believe the SIC can log that flight time...regardless if the PIC has a single pilot waiver or not.

 

[Kingairrick]

That's been debated to death on this and other forums. I really don't know what the answer is. But, if I were interviewing someone, I'd look at them a little sideways if the bulk of their turbine experience was in the right seat of a single pilot airplane. Also, it means nothing as far as the regs are concerned when you go for a type ride (re: SOE.)
You've got the type in the airplane in question, so I'll defer to you...

 

[K.V.]

That's been debated to death on this and other forums. I really don't know what the answer is. But, if I were interviewing someone, I'd look at them a little sideways if the bulk of their turbine experience was in the right seat of a single pilot airplane. Also, it means nothing as far as the regs are concerned when you go for a type ride (re: SOE.)
You've got the type in the airplane in question, so I'll defer to you...

It's not a single pilot airplane...the dude has a single pilot waiver. There is a difference.

 

[Kingairrick]

Once again. I've not gotten the type in the CE-500. I'll defer to those that have,

 

[flydaddy0499]

I though the chief pilot of the organization in question was lacking in testicular fortitude. So I signed him up for some free internet offers that could "help" him with this issue.

 

[PC12Cowboy]

good bye Kit Darby...the leech is gone

 

[brokeflyer]

the plane is certified for single pilot operation and the pilot is single pilot qualified then the only person that can log anything would be a SIC with the same ratings giving instruction in the airplane with an ATP.

So the above post is correct in that the SIC can't log the time....even SIC time.

This job is a total scam.

 

[BoilerUP]

the plane is certified for single pilot operation and the pilot is single pilot qualified then the only person that can log anything would be a SIC with the same ratings giving instruction in the airplane with an ATP.

So the above post is correct in that the SIC can't log the time....even SIC time.

Incorrect.

As long as the PIC has a current 61.58 (regardless of being single-pilot qualified or not), an appropriately trained SIC may legally and legitimately log SIC time.

 

[Fly91]

Well, I don't see what is misleading. The ad states that the applicant is not required, will not get paid, and will have expenses covered. If the guy logs it-that is his problem. I am sure it will get him more contacts being there than sitting at the flight school. As for the training-well-you said it best when you called him a passenger--passengers do not need much training. I think you get what you pay for-if you pay zero-you can't get pissed when the guy suddenly leaves to go to another operator-it's just expected. After all do you have to quit a job that you don't really have? The training-you are probably right-but we don't know this guy may be looking to rekindle his old CFI skills and pass on his knowledge-who knows.

In these tough times when airline guys are flying C210's. Well the target applicant this guy is trying for still can't apply for a 135 IFR job due to his TT. So the poor guy has to envy the C210 crappy pay freight job and has to settle for free experience in a jet. They got the job at the C210 place because they had the time. I know folks at these gigs and they really don't like hiring airline guys because they know when they get the call to go back-they are gone as quick as they arrived and the freight still has to move. It is a crappy economy with a field of work that promotes shady behavior anyway. I don't expect it to change anytime soon. All the guys I made fun of for PFT and buying zero time type ratings all went on to great jobs. I did not and struggled for every honest hour and hard earned dollar. At least I have my dignity while I drive my Ford and eat my ramen noodles. lol.

You're right.

So pathetic around here. Everyone acts like they support the "brother" pilot man, but when some pilots get off their asses to support themselves and their families in any way they can, they SUCK!!!!

I know BBJ guys who went out and paid for their Learjet types and are flying air ambulance trips for $350/day, most of which are 14 hour duty days and longer. A company I do contract work for just hired two co-pilots, they paid for their own types on the Leajet and are only making $24,000/year. But they're eating and paying rent.

If you sit around and don't take a job for little money just because you care about what idiots think about you....you're the same idiot.

Low-time CFI's....fly for free all day long to get the time and experience you need to get a better gig. If you don't, shut up and don't ever complain.

Only thing that is really messed up is when a high-time jet pilot works for free. But why in the hell would he do that with absolutely NO gain from it.

HEY EVERYONE....
In the worst economic times in history, lets ask for double our regular daily rates for contract work and for salary positions lets demand the highest in the industry. You'll be sitting on the couch jerking off.

 

[brokeflyer]

Incorrect.

As long as the PIC has a current 61.58 (regardless of being single-pilot qualified or not), an appropriately trained SIC may legally and legitimately log SIC time.

neither the plane in this case or the operation require a SIC....so he can't log it. 61.58 dont have anything to do with it. This is no diffrent then flying a king air or other single pilot airplane. You still need to be current but if it's single pilot then it's single pilot. No SIC required.

I've asked this before of the FAA and that is what they told me. Years ago I ran an operation and we had an aztec, the FAA wanted us to have an SIC because it was a new operation. So therefore the SIC was legally able to log SIC because the operation required it. Even though the plane was single-pilot.

In this case neither plane nor pic require an sic.....so for him to log it the SIC would need to be typed and sole manipulator.

but, im just telling you how it is, go do whatever you want though. I'm not gonna be interviewing you....

 

[BoilerUP]

neither the plane in this case or the operation require a SIC....so he can't log it. 61.58 dont have anything to do with it. This is no diffrent then flying a king air or other single pilot airplane. You still need to be current but if it's single pilot then it's single pilot. No SIC required.

I've asked this before of the FAA and that is what they told me. Years ago I ran an operation and we had an aztec, the FAA wanted us to have an SIC because it was a new operation. So therefore the SIC was legally able to log SIC because the operation required it. Even though the plane was single-pilot.

In this case neither plane nor pic require an sic.....so for him to log it the SIC would need to be typed and sole manipulator.

but, im just telling you how it is, go do whatever you want though. I'm not gonna be interviewing you....

You're still incorrect...the operation doesn't matter, its what is written on the Type Certificate Data Sheet that does.

The Citation Bravo type certificate data sheet (just like all CE-500, 550 and 560 aircraft) requires two pilots; a pilot flies such an airplane single-pilot by obtaining a Single Pilot Waiver. The SPW makes the pilot qualified to fly SP in an airplane that isn't certified SP. If a CE500/550 gets converted to a CE501/551, then the TCDS requires only one pilot and a SPW isn't required.

I fly a CJ2+, and its TCDS that says "Required Crew - Minimum One". This means you can fly it with one pilot or two. I hold a CE525S rating, so provided the airplane is properly equipped (boom mic, accessble checklists, working autopilot) I can legally fly it SP...but it does not mean that I have to! In fact, if the autopilot is MEL'd in the CJ then you cannot legally fly it single-pilot even if you hold a 525S rating; you would need a trained SIC and you would need to be 61.58 current in order to legally fly with said SIC.

Contrast this to a King Air 90/200 or Piper Aztec TCDS and it will say "Required Crew - One". The word "minimum" makes all the difference in the world...and is why the kind of operation doesn't matter one iota.

In addition to my S type I have a current 61.58 endorsement in CE-525 aircraft, so I can put any pilot I wish in the right seat, train them in accordance with 61.55 and afterward they can legally and legitimately log every single tenth they fly with me.

I agree with you that the job is a scam...but the simple fact of the matter is as the PIC has a current 61.58, they can fly with an SIC (who is appropriately trained) and that SIC can log all the time they want while being 100% within the FARs.

 

[brokeflyer]

yes that is all true......I didnt see the "(properly trained SIC)"

I thought you were talking about them just taking someone off the street and sticking them over there. They need training to fly a 2 pilot crew.....which this stellar operation most likely laks.

my mistake for not seeing that....sorry.

 

[BoilerUP]

yes that is all true......I didnt see the "(properly trained SIC)"

I thought you were talking about them just taking someone off the street and sticking them over there. They need training to fly a 2 pilot crew.....which this stellar operation most likely laks.

my mistake for not seeing that....sorry.

No worries!

The FARs which apply to crew qualifications don't reflect the reality of modern single-pilot turbojets...I mean really, if the Administrator has approved you to fly a jet by yourself why do they require a 61.58 (achieved by doing the exact same ride as the type, just with a copilot) in order to utilize an SIC? Wouldn't it logically follow that if you can safely operate a jet by yourself the operation would be even safer with a copilot?

But I digress...

 

[brokeflyer]

yes my point was that company just putting "anyone" over there......they can't log that unless they are current. Which this place don't exactly sound like they are setting the world on fire as far as much of anything is concerned.