Mistakes because of Fuel Savings?

[fxbat]

SWA doesn't fly the -800.

Maybe I wasn’t clear. 5400ft is a very adequate amount of runway for a longer and heaver version of the 737.

 

[Count Dracula]

Dude you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Stopping margins on the 5400 rwy can be as high as 2000+ feet depending on the weight of the 737, information made clear with onboard data SWA runs for each landing. The 50 seat CRJs don't have slats and their approach speeds are higher and their stopping capablities less. MDW has 4800 OR LESS ft. available (beyond GS) on their LONGEST runway yet ATA, SWA, Frontier, and others land 737's, A320's, and 757's there around the clock. At BUR the runways are even shorter yet Jet Blue, SWA, and other majors operate there all the time.

I guess professionally responding with regard to your first sentence is out of the question? With all due respect to you as an aviator, I do know how the feds look at things from being an examiner and line pilot. I never said that landing on 35 at PHL was not within the capability of your airplane with regard to weight, speed, runway conditions and weather, etc. What I am saying is that you have the option at PHL of landing on 35 with a 5460' runway versus 27R at 9500.' Even if you have adequate safety margins for the shorter runway, this would call into question the PIC's judgement after an incident or accident. I'm just the messenger. A simple thing like blowing a tire or a steering problem after touchdown could turn a simple, everyday landing on 35 at PHL into a careless and reckless operation. I've seen how some of these Inspectors operate and one of them may have an axe to grind with SWA and you just happen to be the lucky victim.

Chicago MDW and Burbank do not have the option of longer runways available so this is not a pilot judgement call at these particular airports on a normal day. When there are more conservative safety options available, take advantage of them. It may lead to a lot less headaches later.

 

[Weasil]

We have a cool down limit but not a warm up. And the cool down is 2 min.

Don't you work at PSA? Here is direct cut and paste from your POH

"

During all starts, do not exceed 75% N

1 for 2 minutes after start,​

or until all operating indications are in the normal range,

whichever is longer."​

Dude you should read your manual. (page 3-8)​

​

 

[av8er2]

Can you tune your car radio and drive in the right lane?

Your'e in the wrong industry.......

There is always someone isn't there to make unprofessional comments like this. They try to make it sound like they are so perfect and never make mistakes. It is people like this that make the big mistakes.

I agree with you. There is no reason to wait to the last minute. When a pilot rushes they almost always will make at least a small mistake.

 

[flyby]

Starting #2

I challenge you Captains to allow your FOs to start the 2nd engine at their discretion. It will develop their situational awareness. A chimp can start an engine but making the decision when is the important part.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Wow...you're serious.

Is anyone else here thinking "Captain Planet"?

And what's wrong with that?

 

[John Pennekamp]

If the weight and balance and performance numbers were calculated correctley and allowed the T/O and the crew used the correct thrust and flap settings it doesn't legaly matter what "would" have happened.

Uh huh. Tell that to the NTSB and ALJ when you run one off the end of runway... stomp you foot and scream "but it was legal!. That's what sets PICs apart from Captains. The judgement to know book numbers don't always apply to the real world.

 

[ultrarunner]

I used to see SWA land 35 in PHL quite often, less now after their latest overrun accident but I see it every now and then. 5,400 runway, B737...? I've never 'flown' a 737 so I have no idea what you can do safely but in the CR200 it's doable but can get a bit sketchy if you don't pound it in.

I never saw any other operators doing it...maybe someone with some 737 experience can pipe in here but to me it just looks odd, and from a bystanders view it certainly looks like they are forgoing safety to save a few bucks on gas.

At mid weights and a dry runway, 5400 is no sweat. Big huge brakes and low ref's due to leading edge slats do wonders.

I don't have time on the 73, but do have time in some bigger stuff and we could comfortably use 6000 feet with no big issues.

 

[yaya]

Has anyone ever gotten into "trouble" for taxiing out on both engines?

 

[Weasil]

I challenge you Captains to allow your FOs to start the 2nd engine at their discretion. It will develop their situational awareness. A chimp can start an engine but making the decision when is the important part.

well said.

 

[aa73]

I challenge you Captains to allow your FOs to start the 2nd engine at their discretion. It will develop their situational awareness. A chimp can start an engine but making the decision when is the important part.

Is it normal at most airlines for F/Os to start the 2nd engine?

AA's policy is that the CA always starts the engines, with the F/O monitoring the gauges and putting the fuel lever up. I'm not saying that's the right way to do it - in fact, on the MD80 you have to physically hold the start switch the whole time the engine is starting, which the CA has to do even as he is taxiing. On the rest of the fleet, start switches are set and click off on their own. But the CA always does it, regardless.

I can see why it's done this way on the 80, because the start switches are way over on the CA's side of the overhead panel - the F/O would have to lean way over to do it, and thus be heads down the entire time.

Comments/opinions? Just curious.

73

 

[PCL_128]

Is it normal at most airlines for F/Os to start the 2nd engine?

AA's policy is that the CA always starts the engines, with the F/O monitoring the gauges and putting the fuel lever up. I'm not saying that's the right way to do it - in fact, on the MD80 you have to physically hold the start switch the whole time the engine is starting, which the CA has to do even as he is taxiing. On the rest of the fleet, start switches are set and click off on their own. But the CA always does it, regardless.

I can see why it's done this way on the 80, because the start switches are way over on the CA's side of the overhead panel - the F/O would have to lean way over to do it, and thus be heads down the entire time.

Comments/opinions? Just curious.

73

I always have the FO start the engines, whether pushing or taxiing. Only time I start an engine is if we are still in the chocks and pull out rather than getting pushed. I'd rather have the FO start them up so I can keep an eye on what's going on outside. Having the Captain start an engine while he also tries to taxi the airplane doesn't really seem safe to me.

FYI, I jumpseat on Delta's -88s all the time, and the FOs always start the engines. He has to reach over to the other side of the overhead, but at least the Captain can still keep an eye outside.

 

[fxbat]

Have a look at those new Boeing flows; I get to stick my arm pit in the Capt. Face as I do everything on the overhead. As for the start I (FO) turn them, he raises the cutoffs and we both monitor. But we don’t do single engine taxis either.

 

[flyby]

Is it normal at most airlines for F/Os to start the 2nd engine?

AA's policy is that the CA always starts the engines, with the F/O monitoring the gauges and putting the fuel lever up. I'm not saying that's the right way to do it - in fact, on the MD80 you have to physically hold the start switch the whole time the engine is starting, which the CA has to do even as he is taxiing. On the rest of the fleet, start switches are set and click off on their own. But the CA always does it, regardless.

I can see why it's done this way on the 80, because the start switches are way over on the CA's side of the overhead panel - the F/O would have to lean way over to do it, and thus be heads down the entire time.

Comments/opinions? Just curious.

73

The EMB has the start selectors in the middle of the overhead, within easy reach of either pilot. On your plane it wouldn't make sense for the FO to start an engine.

Maybe their (AA) policy is for the cap to do it because of the layout. Or, like the PAs, maybe it's just one of them Captain things. Is it the Captains duty on all the AA airframes?

I appreciate the Captains that trust me to choose when to do it.

 

[flyzjetz]

if SWA lands on 35 at PHL, it is because weight, weather, and the aircraft allow it to do so in a safe manner. SWA lands hundreds of flights daily into runways with total or useable lengths at 5400 ft or LESS all around the country.

They also land on a few taxi ways.

 

[Jetz]

They also land on a few taxi ways.

I like your handle. Where to?

 

[aa73]

I always have the FO start the engines, whether pushing or taxiing. Only time I start an engine is if we are still in the chocks and pull out rather than getting pushed. I'd rather have the FO start them up so I can keep an eye on what's going on outside. Having the Captain start an engine while he also tries to taxi the airplane doesn't really seem safe to me.

FYI, I jumpseat on Delta's -88s all the time, and the FOs always start the engines. He has to reach over to the other side of the overhead, but at least the Captain can still keep an eye outside.

Yeah, it seems like at most other airlines, it is usually an F/O duty for the reasons you stated. AA just seems to have a lot of unusual stuff that the CA does.... guess that's why they call it a Captain's airline. Same thing with the PAs.

As far as it being safe... I don't know. It really doesn't take a lot of effort to hold a start switch with your right finger while keeping your left hand on the tiller... the only problem they run into is when they need to add power to keep taxiing... then you see some pretty neat acrobatic arm maneuvering.

Flyby - the CA starts the engines fleet wide. The F/O puts the fuel levers up fleet wide, as well.

73

 

[CoATP]

To those of you that NEVER S.E. taxi:
Ever had an unexpected hold? A larger than planned headwind? Had a C185 close the "Real" runway at HPN while you are already at 7,000 ft?

You then watch your FOA drop towards decision fuel and realize the job got a lot harder.

I like taxiing on one when I can. I care about what I save .. it's not the $$ for the man [I will never see any of it or ride in the fancy car it will buy] I'm saving my behind sometime when I'll need that extra couple of hundred pounds.

 

[Cappy]

Just a thought but how many people have you flown with are overly concerned with fuel burn?
I flew with this guy and he wouldn't let me start #1 till we were at least 2nd for takeoff, sometimes #1. When we go to airports like LEX we still go out single engine. Then when given the OK the F/O has to do the:
Before Start Delayed Items.
After Start Delayed Items,
Taxi Check,
Before Takeoff Check.

All right before takeoff. And we still has to make sure the Capt is going in the right direction.

So here is my .02, mistakes happen when you rush.

I don't get paid enough to rush. So don't make me.
I don't give a rats ass about the $2 we will save in fuel if we wait till the last second to start the other engine.
Just because you have been to that airport 1000 times doesn't mean that i have.
I will fly per the POH and FOM and if you don't like it then go to Go Jerks.

If you really care about your CEO's bonus then donate 10% of your paycheck to his family.

Fuel savings are somewhat misunderstood by your Captain. It isn't worth the added risk of a rush job just to save some minor coin that you won't see anyway. If you want to save money, load near the aft CG and commit to regular reduced thrust takeoffs. This will save more in fuel and engine overhauls than waiting "til your #1.

I admit that I have found myself with that mentality as a captain for breif periods. Unless some unusual circumstance dictated I typically left the FO to start #2 when they were ready. A new guy might want it right out of the gate. An experienced FO might wait until #3 in line.

You are correct not to be pushed into a rush situation. Next time just go so slow on the after start that when you are #1 the Captain has to cross and do a 180. I would expect it and have done this when it seemed we weren't quite prepared.

You have the right mindset. Now, go forth and fly safely!

Mike