Miracle on the Hudson: brought to you by Union workers

[Linedriver]

Why do you believe ALPA is a service?

I think ALPA is a service because I give them consideration in the form of dues. Consideration for representation. ALPA wouldn't exist if it weren't for airline pilots, thus the pilots MUST be the benifactor.

I understand what you are saying about relating ALPA and government but that is a falicy. Our nations government was originally organized to represent the people. A concept long since distorted. Taxes were originally imposed to finance a war. Today, our government has become our countrys largest bank. I say that to say that our government has lost it's vision, just like ALPA. They have grown accustom to the huge revenue generated by dues that they think their own existance is a foregone conclusion. It's like they think it's their right to represent us. I don't even have a choice to be a member of ALPA or not. Well, I can choose not to be a member but I still have to pay a fee equal to the amount of dues so I might as well play.

I have always wanted to be an airline pilot, for several reasons. But when my neighbors kid, an enterprising young man, can make more with his yard service than I can my first couple of years at a major airline, something is wrong and I think that is a core issue with the pride, or lack of it, in todays pilots. And guess what, there is something to that.

I work for money. I have invested much financially and emotionally, just like everyone else, to get here and it just makes a guy sit up and question just what the hell is going on. Why are peoples compensation flexible when oil isn't? Why?

Getting a little off subject but bottom line. I think you and I are not that different in our thinking, just about how to go about fixing a broken, whatever. I don't buy into all the dress-up, hype going on at ALPA; I think a lot of it's just a show. I am more of a target the things that work kind of guy.

So I will leave it at that.

 

[pipe]

I disagree. ALPA is the car, map, gas, oil, etc... however, WE have to drive the car. ALPA is a resource not a service.

Good analogy, I couldn't agree more. Now mine.

When we at TWA were asked to make the car payment, we made it. When it needed maintenance, we maintained it. When we asked to use the car, Duane told us to pound sand because he might have a date with 10,000 chicks that night (APA) (by the way, they didn't want anything to do with him -- I guess they weren't into bald dudes).

PIPE

 

[CopilotDoug]

Doubt it..... it seems that most pilots at FL are in favor of ALPA...

Is that a "most" of the roughly 35% who participate?

who is saying ALPA is the end all?

PCL...to be precise.

typical comment of yours when you have nothing to offer... the ratified concessionary TAs are enough.

Percentages are important. Did 35% of the pilot group vote? Or did 80% vote?

neither, I think pilots should man up at any carrier they are at, volunteer to make the place better than the found it...

It's also possible to make the place better without volunteering.

Expecting others to do for you what you are unwilling to do for yourself is weak...

On this we agree. How we go about it is where we disagree. Fair enough? I'll wholeheartedly reject any implication there might be that I "expect others to do for me something I am not willing to do myself" however.

Problem with your failed logic is currently pilots like you and a majority of all pilots operate off self interest... that is what makes union representation weak...

ALPA has played their role in forming an apathetic membership.

Most pilots think they are a Prima Donna A-Rod and ALPA is there personal Boras.

So if that's the case...why do you expect your fellow pilots to be something they are not?

Does that mean stepping on your fellow pilots back to do it? Do you know how to help your company grow and defend the profession?

That depends...are all airlines entitled to growth?

ALPA never intended to have anything to do with that...

Nor did a Union, for that matter. Just an example that Safety is Self Sustainable at this point.

Rather read this:
“Pilot Assistance: Do we even need it today?”
http://www.ntsb.gov/speeches/sumwalt/rls070411.htm

Read it.

Yet you still benefit from the DAL pilots 30MM in dues.

I love free milk...

No. Who are they but monikers. A valid grievance can be done by communicating ones elected officials.

Good point. FI is not a good resource to assist in educating fellow pilots with concerns.

Overall staff pay has been reduced via lay offs.

Sounds like a start!

Your opinion...

And I'm entitled to it. And likewise...you're entitled to yours.

 

[Turtle21]

If ALPA is so damn good, how come after 12 pages not one person is convinced to send them more money to become better? (Rez and 128 don't count. They have always sent ALPA extra money).

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I think ALPA is a service because I give them consideration in the form of dues. Consideration for representation. ALPA wouldn't exist if it weren't for airline pilots, thus the pilots MUST be the benifactor.

representation is via democracy. Not money. If you increased dues to ALPA would that increase effectiveness?

Or would active participation of most if not all members increase effectiveness.

Look at it this way.... during contract negotiations, you and your pilot group wants a better contract. Do you give your union more money or do you picket and strike.

IOW, in your example, pilots wouldn't need to strike, they could just buy a new contract.

I understand what you are saying about relating ALPA and government but that is a falicy. Our nations government was originally organized to represent the people. A concept long since distorted. Taxes were originally imposed to finance a war. Today, our government has become our countrys largest bank. I say that to say that our government has lost it's vision, just like ALPA. They have grown accustom to the huge revenue generated by dues that they think their own existance is a foregone conclusion. It's like they think it's their right to represent us. I don't even have a choice to be a member of ALPA or not. Well, I can choose not to be a member but I still have to pay a fee equal to the amount of dues so I might as well play.

so what is the solution? If our govt and union democracy are fallacies how do we correct it? Money or participatory politics/democracy?

I have always wanted to be an airline pilot, for several reasons. But when my neighbors kid, an enterprising young man, can make more with his yard service than I can my first couple of years at a major airline, something is wrong and I think that is a core issue with the pride, or lack of it, in todays pilots. And guess what, there is something to that.

I don't think the grass is greener on the other side.

I work for money. I have invested much financially and emotionally, just like everyone else, to get here and it just makes a guy sit up and question just what the hell is going on. Why are peoples compensation flexible when oil isn't? Why?

Because pilots think ALPA is a service. They will not participate.

Getting a little off subject but bottom line. I think you and I are not that different in our thinking, just about how to go about fixing a broken, whatever. I don't buy into all the dress-up, hype going on at ALPA; I think a lot of it's just a show. I am more of a target the things that work kind of guy.

So I will leave it at that.

Unity and strength in numbers works. I've seen and history shows it. We've got to get off the consumerism mentality and on to participatory politics.

I suggest:

Consumed

and

Strong Democracy

both by Barber

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Is that a "most" of the roughly 35% who participate?

PCL...to be precise.

we will see.

Percentages are important. Did 35% of the pilot group vote? Or did 80% vote?

voting participation is always high when it directly effects a pilots wallet. Hence my observation that pilots are in this more for the money than the profession.

It's also possible to make the place better without volunteering.

Explain.

On this we agree. How we go about it is where we disagree. Fair enough? I'll wholeheartedly reject any implication there might be that I "expect others to do for me something I am not willing to do myself" however.

yet it is the truth....

ALPA has played their role in forming an apathetic membership.

Agreed... and it is the pilots responsibility to elect leaders that do not form apathy and it is pilots responsibility to not be apathetic themselves.

So if that's the case...why do you expect your fellow pilots to be something they are not?

Then why do they expect ALPA to be something it is not?

That depends...are all airlines entitled to growth?

Air Line Pilots do not run airlines. Pilots help their company grow by flying jets safely.

Nor did a Union, for that matter. Just an example that Safety is Self Sustainable at this point.

a poor example...

Read it.

Did you understand it?

I love free milk...

You flame hotter than a homo in SFO

Good point. FI is not a good resource to assist in educating fellow pilots with concerns.

you are learning....

Sounds like a start!

It's Friday night in SFO baby!

And I'm entitled to it. And likewise...you're entitled to yours.

Of course, however my opinion is based upon experience... yours is based upon ideology

 

[Linedriver]

Look at it this way.... during contract negotiations, you and your pilot group wants a better contract. Do you give your union more money or do you picket and strike.

so what is the solution? If our govt and union democracy are fallacies how do we correct it? Money or participatory politics/democracy?

Because pilots think ALPA is a service. They will not participate.

Wow! Ok, that statement speaks volumes to me. From that I see that you really buy in to the ALPA mentality and that reflects on the actual culture over there.

You can't run a business like that Rez. If you pay an employee a competitive wage to do a job, you shouldn't have to pay him more to do it right; or you shouldn't have to jump in there and help him to do it right either.

The statement you just made proves mine. ALPA thinks they deserve to exist and represent us. Let me ask you this. If ALPA realized there was an actual possibility that the pilots at a given airline could kick them out, would they try harder or decide to become more effective?

ALPA isn't government. There is nothing, absolutely nothing we can do about our government short of overthrowing it. ALPA however, can be fired or voted out. It is THAT easy.

Rez, honestly, you aren't seeing ALPA correctly. I don't know what else to tell you. There are a lot of pilots, like yourself, that are holding out for ALPA and right now are the majority. There is the next generation of pilots coming up and I think ALPA will get voted out eventually. These are competitive times and people are getting more educated and becoming less tolerant for ineffictiveness.

 

[Linedriver]

deleted

 

[CopilotDoug]

Explain.

It's the small stuff. Between legs, you can walk the concourse and help the little old lady find her gate. I watched an ExpressJet FO hop out of the cockpit after pulling to the gate and help the ramper bring planeside bags up to the jetway. Whether you're helping answer passenger concerns about a delay to a mechanical, or making a suggestion to a training captain while on a flight with him/her, there are plenty of ways to improve your work environment while on the clock. You may consider that "volunteering" but I consider it all part of the job.

Then why do they expect ALPA to be something it is not?

Sounds like the "issue" here is with the membership. They want something that ALPA can't provide.

Air Line Pilots do not run airlines. Pilots help their company grow by flying jets safely.

We know ALPA is run by people, and people make mistakes. Does having ALPA representation necessarily ensure that ALPA carrier 'A' won't step on ALPA carrier 'B'?

a poor example...

It's a good example. Had I chosen a safety advancement in the airline industry, there's a chance that an ALPA rep inserted himself among the crowd at a Press Statement regarding the new development and...voila...ALPA releases a news article regarding their involvement.

Did you understand it?

Yes.

You flame hotter than a homo in SFO

Couldn't pass on that opportunity. What is the objective here...to turn ALPA in to an industry wide Martyr? Build them up as an unsung hero?

I'll have to take your word on heat levels emitted by homos in SFO.

you are learning...

I was being sarcastic. While FI.com is 90% entertainment...it is also a medium where good ideas can be kicked around. Your CRM training says to use all available resources.

It's Friday night in SFO baby!

Sounds like you're looking forward to it.

Sorry...couldn't pass that one up!:laugh:

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It's the small stuff. Between legs, you can walk the concourse and help the little old lady find her gate. I watched an ExpressJet FO hop out of the cockpit after pulling to the gate and help the ramper bring planeside bags up to the jetway. Whether you're helping answer passenger concerns about a delay to a mechanical, or making a suggestion to a training captain while on a flight with him/her, there are plenty of ways to improve your work environment while on the clock. You may consider that "volunteering" but I consider it all part of the job.

What you do between your legs is your own business.

The above is standard stuff... many of us it do it...

I am talking about volunteering on a committee where real progress is made....

Sounds like the "issue" here is with the membership. They want something that ALPA can't provide.

So the question is.... are the memberrships expectations realistic...

We know ALPA is run by people, and people make mistakes. Does having ALPA representation necessarily ensure that ALPA carrier 'A' won't step on ALPA carrier 'B'?

Nope.

If carrier is A is ALPA and B is not, what does that mean?

It's a good example. Had I chosen a safety advancement in the airline industry, there's a chance that an ALPA rep inserted himself among the crowd at a Press Statement regarding the new development and...voila...ALPA releases a news article regarding their involvement.

And your opinion is based upon what?

Yes.

no

Couldn't pass on that opportunity. What is the objective here...to turn ALPA in to an industry wide Martyr? Build them up as an unsung hero?

Well I've meet a few flamers and I have always passed on the opportunity, but I understand the 20 something crowd rolls with homosexuality much more freely....


As far as ALPA, the goal is to make the profession better. That isn't necessarily money in your bank.

I'll have to take your word on heat levels emitted by homos in SFO.

My flame retardant suit disgusts them....

I was being sarcastic. While FI.com is 90% entertainment...it is also a medium where good ideas can be kicked around. Your CRM training says to use all available resources.

Yes, I have taken CRM.... have you?

Sounds like you're looking forward to it.

Sorry...couldn't pass that one up!:laugh:

I pass up Friday night in SFO everytime... what is it like?