Miracle on the Hudson: brought to you by Union workers

[say again]

http://www.doobybrain.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/big-cups.jpg


A recent photo of an ALPA recruiting event hosted by Rez.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Here's a Disconnect and I really think it's falling on alot of deaf ears at this point. ALPA has little to no control over the issues right here in their own backyard, and they've proven it. While the symbolism of an "International Presence" is wonderful and all, it doesn't address the main issues at the forefront of Pilot Concerns today.

Yeah, sure, but why don't you respond to my post?

Do you hold ALPA responsible for management NOT being like SWA management?

Regardless of economic environment, you feel ALPA should continue to make gains that satisfy individual pilot requirements?

These issues, while important, are lower on the priority list.

Right, because this is about you, the individual. This is not about making the profession better for all pilots, passengers and industry, this is about what is in it for you.. money and QOL.

And the Washington DC presence will help me put little Johnny through College how?

my point... "me, me, me..."

In actuality, do you think your chances of getting braces on your kids teeth and putting them thru college are greater if you bang the me me me drum or you find a collective rope to pull on?

(hint: SWA management works to get everyone on the collective rope)

Rez, who determined this to be a "problem?" Why do you expect people to be something they're not? Besides, isn't this also a collective interest? If Pilot Joe screams for more money and better benefits...and his Union miraculously negotiates a better contract, doesn't every pilot in that group benefit from that?

The selfish, self centered types (you know who they are..) who hate ALPA because ALPA doesn't deliver the money....

Face it.. that is why guys like you hate ALPA.... ALPA doesn't "show you the money"

Lower on the priority list...

Of course it is... just like all the other gains that you take for granted...

What is a priority is money.... right. ALPA suxs until you get more money in your bank.

Maybe my Copilot will help foot the bill for Johnny's education...

Why? Would you help with his needs? This is your elephant in the room.....

You want ALPA or your fellow pilot to help you, but you are willing to do nothing for ALPA or your fellow pilot...

How does that work, when all pilots are taking... asking "where is mine".... and no one is giving.... where does what you want come from...????

They do. As was evidenced by this article:

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=120201

First off, this thread started by you and only one response by an total ALPA hater. There is no discussion or intrest here....

In addition, it shows once again what you are all about: money. You don't care about the profession and being an asset to company, passengers, industry and country... you just want money.

Which suggest that if ALPA provided financials gains via a CBA, in time, the "what have you done for me lately" mantra will creep in and you'll be hating ALPA all over again.....

Again, Rez. It's a poor comparison. Need I explain the Why again?

Can you explain why?

ALPA represented FDX pilots gained a far better contract than in house represented UPS pilots.

 

[GogglesPisano]

The reason we have unions is to make it more difficult to get fired if we mess up. Period.

Unions aren't necessary.

I'm trying to steer through your self-contradiction and find the logic. Either you are expecting to have a perfect, mistake-free career and feel you don't need the "protection," or you realize that pilots are human, make mistakes and need representation before management -- who'll usually sell you down the river to avoid enforecement against the company -- and the FAA.

Unions can't do much in the face of recession, terrorist attacks, criminal management, and low-cost pilots undercutting union wages, but they are better than the alternative.

I'll help you prove your point:
With the exception of JB and Skywest, name another non-union airline -- in the entire history of the commercial airline industry -- that has had better pay and QOL for their pilots than their union counterparts.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I'll help you prove your point:
With the exception of JB and Skywest, name another non-union airline -- in the entire history of the commercial airline industry -- that has had better pay and QOL for their pilots than their union counterparts.

Well, JB is trying to organize... the issue with many JB pilots is a jb pilot=ramper=gate agent=FA. By law the company has to treat all employees the same.

I am not sure that a ramper at jb is really motivated to desire what the jb pilots desire. Sure a ramper would love pilot benefits that non jb pilots enjoy.... However, jb pilots have a valid argument that the training, education and responsibility allow for wages and benefits that reflect.

However, JB management CAN'T give its pilots a consummate compensation package until they organize. Only then can JB management legally provide a different 401k and healthplan. In addtion, jb can also say to their non pilot employees "we are bound by law to give pilots different benefits b/c they have a CBA."



As for Skywest.... they are simply a pilot group that enjoys the gains made by others. The argument made by many OO pilots during the organizing campaign was "why buy the cow, I get the milk for free". FI users like CFIT need to discredit ALPA because it is obvious that they are free loading off the hard work others. Simply put CFIT needs to claim the cow is bad, even though the milk is sweet....

 

[Turtle21]

I'll bite.....

In this case at this point in time, this union is a source of revenue for a few bloated individuals with self serving interests. Not a whole lot different from senior management.

Let me guess... this is where Rez and 128 jump in and blame us with the usual ALPA mantra of "WE are the union".

 

[JungleJett]

Has pilot compensation gone up or down in the past 10 years?

What significant safety enhancements has ALPA been the sole or primary leader on?

Has ALPA National leadership pay gone up or down and what is Praters current pay?

How many people does ALPA National employee?

What is the average salary of a secretary at ALPA National?

When is the last time Prater flew an airplane?

How have the fatigue rules changed in the past 5-10 years?

How did the age 65 rule pass when the membership (remember...ALPA IS its membership) voiced its opinion against it?

Why did Prater IGNORE his own Blue Ribbon Panel recommendations on the age 65 ruling?


​

 

[CopilotDoug]

Yeah, sure, but why don't you respond to my post?

Do you hold ALPA responsible for management NOT being like SWA management??

No. As SWAPA has demonstrated, it's not the Union alone which makes the difference.

Regardless of economic environment, you feel ALPA should continue to make gains that satisfy individual pilot requirements?

No. I expect ALPA to represent the will of the pilots. Certainly we are going into an unprecedented economic downturn and that needs to be taken into cnsideration. However, when Bonuses and Payraises are still being distributed, I expect my Union to come back with my piece of the pie.

Right, because this is about you, the individual. This is not about making the profession better for all pilots, passengers and industry, this is about what is in it for you.. money and QOL.

Yes, me the Individual Employee. SWA's number one priority is their employees. Number Two is the Customer. Happy employees make productive employees.

my point... "me, me, me..."

In actuality, do you think your chances of getting braces on your kids teeth and putting them thru college are greater if you bang the me me me drum or you find a collective rope to pull on?

(hint: SWA management works to get everyone on the collective rope)

Let's not take it out of context, to be sure. I'm not an advocate for the slacker pilot. If the company takes care of me, I'll take care of the company...and vice versa, I'll take care of the company to make sure it's there to take care of me. But to answer your question: Yes, I still do believe it is the collective reult of individual self interest which raise the bar. Tempered with a little moderation, of course.

The selfish, self centered types (you know who they are..) who hate ALPA because ALPA doesn't deliver the money....

Face it.. that is why guys like you hate ALPA.... ALPA doesn't "show you the money"

Hate is too strong a word. If ALPA can't represent my interests...so be it. I don't have any disillusions about ALPA's capabilities.

Of course it is... just like all the other gains that you take for granted...

What is a priority is money.... right. ALPA suxs until you get more money in your bank.

Priorities change and evolve. Yes, in the beginning, Safety was paramount. Today, that's fairly well nipped in the bud and I would even say is a self-perpetuating Industry. Take ALPA away and improvements will continue to be made in the Safety Arena. Money always has been a priority. Always will be. I can appreciate the econmic downturn, but as I said before, when bonuses are being doled out on mahogany row...is it wrong to want to share in the profits?

Why? Would you help with his needs? This is your elephant in the room.....

You want ALPA or your fellow pilot to help you, but you are willing to do nothing for ALPA or your fellow pilot...

How does that work, when all pilots are taking... asking "where is mine".... and no one is giving.... where does what you want come from...????.

I addressed this above, the part about moderation and not being a slacker.

First off, this thread started by you and only one response by an total ALPA hater. There is no discussion or intrest here....

In addition, it shows once again what you are all about: money. You don't care about the profession and being an asset to company, passengers, industry and country... you just want money.

Which suggest that if ALPA provided financials gains via a CBA, in time, the "what have you done for me lately" mantra will creep in and you'll be hating ALPA all over again.....

No discussion or interest? I don't see many people visiting the Union section, there's your lack of interest. Lack of discussion? Easy...it's a widely accepted truth. Again...addressing the whole money issue...refer to the "moderation" part.

Can you explain why?

ALPA represented FDX pilots gained a far better contract than in house represented UPS pilots.

Better? That's a subjective term. Your argument implies that UPS and FedEx are essentially business model twins, right down to the last detail. In actuality, every minute difference between the two companies played a role in the outcome of their respective contracts. One pivital difference between the two are the Management teams. What you're essentially implying is that ALPA would have been able to negotiate a better contract at UPS. That's like me saying SWAPA would negotiate a better contract at UAL. It doesn't hold water.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Has pilot compensation gone up or down in the past 10 years?​

so it is for you about money. You got into this line of work not for the professional status but for the money.

Any changes in compensation were voted upon by ALPA pilots.​

What significant safety enhancements has ALPA been the sole or primary leader on?

Compared to other unions or industry wide?​

Has ALPA National leadership pay gone up or down and what is Praters current pay?

Leadership pay has gone down. Ppraters pay is determined by democratic vote of all LEC officers of whom are elected by a minority number of ALPA pilots. ~35%​

How many people does ALPA National employee?​

Would you like to ba an ALPA employee? They are not hiring rather laying off.

What is the average salary of a secretary at ALPA National?

Do you expect ALPA to fire someone if their pay gets too high?​

When is the last time Prater flew an airplane?

Do you want him flying trips or representing pilots?​

How have the fatigue rules changed in the past 5-10 years?

LAst 8 years. Bush. Any questions?​

How did the age 65 rule pass when the membership (remember...ALPA IS its membership) voiced its opinion against it?

Recall the question... if the law was to change....​

Why did Prater IGNORE his own Blue Ribbon Panel recommendations on the age 65 ruling?​

ask him. I didn't vote for him...

 

[Turtle21]

Any changes in compensation were voted upon by ALPA pilots.

I appreciate that you point out the importance of the vote. After all, that is the expression of the will of the pilots. If ALPA had not repeatedly obstructed the pilot's right to vote, ALPA would still be at USAir.

Your claim that all changes in compensation were voted on is not accurate. The $3 Billion pension was earned compensation of the USAir pilots. ALPA gave it to USAir mngmnt WITHOUT a vote by the pilots.

Even as much money as it was, it is not about the money. It is about the representatives being responsive to those who elected them. ALPA divorced themselves from the pilots long ago at USAir and finally came face to face with a pilot vote (the NMB) that even they could not forgo or manipulate (though they pulled out all the stops and tried their best).

 

[MCDU]

Oh, the ALPA mailings in weeks prior to the NMB vote. Never in my life did I ever get so much spam in my mailbox. It kept on coming and coming and when you thought they could not send anymore, they doubled the output in the last 2-3 weeks. All paid for by ALPA Union dues. They had no chance of wining, but the rational was that we can spam ourselves to victory and keep 5000 dues paying pilots on the payroll. What a waste of money that was. Where was all this concern when our pensions got flushed down the toilet. That should have been done by vote. Instead it got blessed by ALPA and insured that the dues kept coming. ALPA is not run like a Union.

M