military to airline

[vetteracer]

ORIGINAL POST

Certainly an airline would get better pilots if it counted WSO time towards at least some of their hiring minimums.


In what regards? Better navigation abilities?

I think just the opposite as you, I think the military pilots get the breaks. I have 4000+ hours and it is looked at the same as a military pilot with 1500 hours. Is it better time??? I have no one to help me make go no go decisions, no one to sit at the end of the runway and watch to make sure my landing gear is down. No weather specialist to interpret weather for me. Most of my time is single pilot, day not IFR with no autopilot. How many military pilots shoot approaches with only a visibility requirement of 1800 RVR and indefinite ceilings. We have a retired Air Force guy that flies with us and he cannot believe half the stuff we do. The strips we go in and out of, circling approaches, dealing with ice, thunderstorms etc.

Mark


What was argued here was the function of WSO or NAV time being counted as flight time and accepted for airline applications. That was the indictment, not any argument about military pilots. I spoke out of turn and then I posted-

-I re-read my post and see how it came of one sided, that is not what I intended. I wrote off hand and did not articulate my point well.

Let me re-elaborate. I think neither Civ nor Mil has an appreciation for what the other does. We can go back and forth on each other’s experiences and still have no end.


So the discussion was going some where. –

Then JIM added –

Actually I think I have a pretty good appreciation as I have done both. My military time was as a NFO ("Navy Nav") and my pilot time is all civilian. Plus I've done the FE thing too.


SO I got a lesson on the subject and agreed that sitting sideways was no more qualifying then NFO or WSO or nav time, even less maybe. And that it should be counted.

"Nowhere in my post did I complain about what we do".

-You have no idea what we do, so keep your mouth shut. Don't even try to shoot back, because I'm in a very hot, unfriendly place and don't have a lot of patience anymore.

Sounds like a complaint to me- But, understadable, !

So, vetteracer, I think your time is probably somewhere close to as trying as ours, but I still think you have no idea what you're talking about.

Thanks for the compliment.

I am not trying to make this post about who has the bigger wiener, or who is more of a hero or who is Chuck Yeager or whatever you chose to have peeing rights for.

One of my best friends is an F-16 driver and Sqd Ldr. So I understand all well what the military is like. I have other buddies from college that fly 135’s and speak with the often. We have an air base right on our field. I get this more often my way, then the other way, "Man, your kidding me, you guys went flying today"!

I am proud of our military and do not want to hold them short in any venue.

We can go round and round about being heroes and who is more important if you want to take the post in that direction. But as an officer and a graduate I am sure that you are above that.

I will extend an olive branch and apologies if I, in any way I offended you. I am sure someday if we are in the cockpit together we can settle this over an arm wrestling contest.

Good luck and be safe, and return to your family asap.

Mark

 

[vetteracer]

HoverBoy, well versed post.


I think it would be a good idea to turn this post into something positive, and maybe educate each other on what we do. How we got to where we are at, and what are goals are.

Mark

 

[Kuma]

BrianNYC-

If you want to fly for an airline, you need to have fixed wing time.

Military helo pilots can get slots to be military fixed wing instructors at the UPT level. For many, this is the way they get the required amounts of fixed wing time. Navigators do not have that option.

Both helo pilots and navigators can build their time in the civilian market via CFI etc.

Sometimes, helo flight time counts...my buddy got a job with ASA in 1998 with 1500 rotor hours and 200 fixed wing hours. They needed pilots and they hired him. Now days, all the helo time in the world means nothing for airline hiring. The airlines have plenty of out of work pilots to choose from.

Bottom line is don't expect any of your military flying to count unless it is fixed wing pilot time.

Just like gear_guy said, check out www.aptap.org The website is run by army rotary wing pilots whose goal is to fly for an airline. You'd probably get some good insight.

Good luck with your decisions-
Kuma

 

[HueyPilot]

1800 Rvr

How many military pilots shoot approaches with only a visibility requirement of 1800 RVR and indefinite ceilings

We do!

We do that, plus fly a jet designed for civil use (Learjet 35) into Iraqi airfields, performing tactical approaches (3000 fpm spiral-down patterns from 15,000 feet to avoid getting hit by ground fire), and operate in an environment where squawking the wrong codes could get you shot down.

 

[Whidbey]

Military vs. Civilian

Mark,



I thought your posts were great and they touch on a subject that seems to come up a lot on this website.



Your flying definitely sounds varsity to me, flying an air ambulance. I think a person could scarcely fly a more satisfying mission. Somebody's a$$ is on the line every time you crank the engines, your job is to help people and save lives. I’m sure things like weather mins and minimum equipment for flight have a whole new meaning with someone in desperate need of medical attention in the back.



The things that you discuss in your post are universals in aviation... dealing with emergencies, foul weather, decision making, and flying night after night on little or no sleep. These things also happen in military aviation to quite a great extent, and no matter what rules are published, what SOP's say, etc, we are put in situations where we must bend/break our rules- just as you are.



There was a really great article in IFR magazine some time around 94 to 98 about Carrier aviation. The guy did a great breakdown of the geometry of catching the three wire, and principles such as hook to eye and hook to ramp. There was an inset in the article by a former Tomcat guy turned airline bubba named Jay Bliss. He gave the (high) numbers of aircraft and aircrew lost in his airwing's time at sea. He said that ALL were lost at night or in IMC. So, no matter what us military guys say about our flying, oftentimes the things that kill us are the exact same things that kill our civilian counterparts. This lends credit to your post, and we have a great deal in common.



But I will respectfully submit the following for your consideration. I'm a young, relatively inexperienced guy just reaching my first thousand hours. A basic outline of my flying experiences are as follows- these milestones are typical for my buddies from flight school... and in most respects their experiences are much more demanding and dangerous than mine have been.



My first aerobatic solo was at about 25 hours of experience after countless spins in the old T-34, first formation flights after about 60 hours. Solo in a multiengine jet in less than 100 (less than that for our Air Force buds). Air to air gunnery at 200, dropping bombs at 220 and dogfights/seeing the back of an aircraft carrier for the first time at 250 hours. Wings at around 280, Night CQ at 350 and my first combat / getting shot at- at well below 400. That was as a 25 year old aircraft commander (single pilot) in a multi crew platform. A typical flight would be a 50 minute trip across Saudi at night to find the tanker in the clouds, about an hour and a half in country, tank, another 1.5 in country, backside tank, then back home for a night ILS to a gucci 10k air force runway. (Immeasurably easier than the boat at night).



Weather?... been there. EP's… in an old Grumman the list gets long quick. Engines, Hydraulics, electrical, hung gear, split flaps, explosive d, ruptured fuel cells pumping fuel into the cockpit. Night after night flying- we've all been there. I guarantee JimNTexas could post many more harrowing stories than I have. 400agl at night is the ULTIMATE in CRM/ACT- things I imagine the airlines value.



You said you had nobody helping you to make the right decisions. We'll often have people "helping," pressuring us to make the wrong ones, just as I'm sure you've had bosses do. It takes the same type of leadership for a young LT to stand up to pressure to do unsafe things that it does for a 10,000 hour captain to stand up to dispatch, etc. Military guys learn decision making young.



What does night tanking, or flying through the mountains at 400a have to do with airline flying? How about muliti-tasking skills? (The comms over a foreign country with jets coordinating a strike are far more busy than LA’s class B. I’ve been in both situations many times. Do you know how many different freqs your average tacair guy is on simultaneously? In my jet it’s three and they are all busy as heck. What does fighting another jet have to do with airline flying? How about comfort in a dynamic environment, an appropriate fear threshold, the experience of recovering an aircraft that has departed controlled flight. If I’m in the back of a 737 that has a rudder PCU fail, I'd like a fighter guy at the controls… even if he did scare off all the chicks at the bar.



And at only 1000 hours, 60 or 70 combat missions, with nearly half of my time in type being combat time, I've had it easier than so many other guys in other more demanding platforms, flying off the ship at night, etc.



As for the guys senior to me that are at the 1500-2000 hour mark that get the "easier" treatment from the airlines... They are in charge of 4 jets in a flight, the tactical mission planning (in addition to all standard flight planning), all on top of a ground job that is more than enough to employ a non-flyer full time. And yes, these guys do this in bad weather and at night as well.



I'm not an expert on civilian flying but I do have many civilian friends in the commuters and a couple that have made it big- and most of them got their first 500-1000 teaching stalls in a 152, then another 1500 as a FO.



Sir, with respect, how many of your 4500 hours are turbine PIC? About 700 of my first 1000 are.



Many CFIs and MEI’s wash out of Navy flight school. I’m sure icing up in a Cessna is scary as heck- but many guys with all the civvy experience in the world just can’t think at jet speeds.



Add up the number of cycles a military jet guy flies. Flight time builds slow flying 1.1's teaching in Kingsville or meridian. It would be interesting to compare the number of cycles in a military jet guy's logbook to a high time civilian's. (Hence conversion factors).



One last thing- go to the majors portion of this website and see what all the old military guys have to say about getting on with the airlines- how the stress level and nature of the flying compares to their military experience, and how happy they are to be where they are now. I guess that is something we could all learn something from.



I have not intended to boast on my own experiences, like I said the guys out there right now flying off the boat night at night really earn their money, as do our Air Force, Marine, and Army brothers. Everything I listed is standard for a military guy my age. I certainly have not meant to disrespect or belittle the experiences of civilian aviators. Some of your stories of flying air ambulance don’t sound fun at all, and were certainly challenging.



However, I believe military pilots deal with all the challenges dangers present in civilian aviation and much more- at an earlier age, lower flight time, and with superior training. That being said, I respectfully maintain that military experience warrants a significant hours bias in airline hiring over civilian candidates.

 

[English]

If I’m in the back of a 737 that has a rudder PCU fail, I'd like a fighter guy at the controls… even if he did scare off all the chicks at the bar.

This reminds me of my 737 type training. My sim partner was a fighter guy and couldn't fly his way out of a paper bag, at least in a 737 sim. I've never made so many altitude. heading and airspeed deviation callouts in my life. And steep turns? He completely lost control. First and only time I've seen red in a simulator and had to have the techs put it back up on hydraulics. I guess most fighter guys don't get much instrument practice? That was his excuse, anyway.

I surely wouldn't want to be in the back of a 737 with a rudder PCU fail with him at the controls.

I think he is at SWA now.

And, some of my favorite captains (and family) are military, so I'm not bashing. I just disagree with Whidbey's observations.

 

[rcbullock]

Nav Time

All I'm sayin' is, seems Nav time should count for SOMETHING. I mean, even if you just SAT behind the pilot and co and watched for 1500+ hours (I have at least that much nav time) you couldn't help but learn SOMETHING.

Plus working the FMS, doing the flight plan, cross checking fuel, monitoring the approach etc etc. is worth SOMETHING.

I think we can at least agree on that. What we can't agree on is how much it should count.

Heck, I'd be thrilled to get the FE up to 500 hr for an ATP deal.

I'd be happy with HALF that, say, 250 hrs towards an ATP.

I was going to get the Flight Navigator rating put on my civilian tickets but the FAA wouldn't even give me that. They said there was no military equivalency. And I did learn cel nav.

 

[vetteracer]

Sir, with respect, how many of your 4500 hours are turbine PIC? About 700 of my first 1000 are.



Total Time 4554

ME- 2508

SE 1989

ME Turbine PIC 1160

CFI TIME 115

X Country 3831

Night 1909

PIC 4250

And I am 28 Years old.



Nice post and very informative. I understand that a lot is expected of military pilots during training. And further more are expected to do it in a short period of time.

How much of your time is solo, PIC without an instructor? Not a flame, just out of curiosity. How many hours a month/day do you fly? How long have you been in the military. Just trying to get a synopsis.

Mark

 

[vetteracer]

Quote

"This reminds me of my 737 type training. My sim partner was a fighter guy and couldn't fly his way out of a paper bag, at least in a 737 sim. I've never made so many altitude. heading and airspeed deviation callouts in my life. And steep turns? He completely lost control. First and only time I've seen red in a simulator and had to have the techs put it back up on hydraulics. I guess most fighter guys don't get much instrument practice? That was his excuse, anyway."

My initial training in the King Air was at Simuflite in Dallas. I was in a class of 8 and I was the only civ guy there. All the guys were Navy. Most were fighter guys moving over to the C-12. One guy left the class for some reason so they paired 3 of us up together. The 2 that I was with were great guys, but had some of the worst instrument skills I had ever seen. And these guys had been pilots for quite a while.

Neither had flown GA nor could not believe that I had 2500+ hours and that I had been flying around 900 a year. One guy had less the 2000 total over 15 years (I think). I attributed the lack of instrument skill to lack of repetition. Both were so far behind the airplane they needed extra sim time. But I bet they were excellent fighter pilots. If they put me in an F-18 sim, it would probably take me a while to get the hang of things.

I kept in touch with one guy for a few years afterwards as I was thinking about joining the Navy, and he was interested in working for our operation if he could not get on an airline. I take it he made it to an airline.

Back to my interest in the Navy. I drove down to Omaha and met with a recruiter. He was a pilot. I told him that I had some flight experience and he told me that my 200-300 hours (I had around 2500 then) of GA time was useless and that it would actually hinder me. And that if I wanted to be in the Navy that I should not mention my flight time at all because as he said it "Civilian time, anybody can do that"!

Mark

 

[vetteracer]

Quote

"You said you had nobody helping you to make the right decisions. We'll often have people "helping," pressuring us to make the wrong ones, just as I'm sure you've had bosses do. It takes the same type of leadership for a young LT to stand up to pressure to do unsafe things that it does for a 10,000 hour captain to stand up to dispatch, etc. Military guys learn decision making young."



Yes, we both learn young. Most of the pressure to fly comes from myself.

A few stand out, but one in particular. Night, freezing rain, slick runways, low IFR. Flight pages out for a trauma, 5-year old boy caught in farm equipment. Needed to go to the Mayo clinic. I turned the flight down. Called the hospital 3 hours latter when the wether was better. The response I got, "patient has expired". I was 24 years old.

I am sure the same thing applies in the military when you cannot get to troops or to victims. So there are many similarities in Military and GA. More then we probably realize.

Now, on the other spectrum. There is the guy with 800 hours TT, and has never been IMC by himself gets the RJ job. So as always anything goes in this industry.

My point is that according to some of the previous posts I have no comprehension of having other peoples lives in my hands when making a go – no –go decision. Not that this is important to me or to inflate my ego, but it always seems that SOME Military pilots think that this GA stuff is for trained Monkeys.

Mark

 

[HueyPilot]

Time breakdown

Vett...

I'm about 31, not much older than you. If you're curious as to a typical military pilot's time breakdown, here's mine:

Army flight time (flew for them for about 2 1/2 years)

Helo turbine total: ~350
Dual: ~130
SIC (2nd in Command): ~220

Air Force flight time (been flying with them for 4 years now)

Total FW: ~1300
ME Turbine: ~1200
ME Turbine PIC: ~600
ME Turbine Instructor: ~100
SEL: ~100
Dual (all types): ~220

Ratings to date, with nearly 1,700 hours: Commercial MEL/Helo, Inst. Airplane/Helo, Private SEL, LRJET type

Locations flown to as LJ35 PIC/Instructor: Greenland (Sondrestromfjord), Iceland (Keflavik), Qatar, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Oman, Bahrain, Alaska, and nearly everywhere in the continental US.

Here's another insight into military experiences: I had about 500 hours in the Learjet, with about 800 hours airplane total time. I had about 30 hours PIC in the airplane, and after one orientation flight, I was flying PIC in a war zone, throughout the middle east, dealing with controllers that spoke poor english, and flying tactical approaches into airfields in the middle of the desert with low vis due to dust.

 

[HueyPilot]

More stuff

Speaking of eye-opening experiences, there are several that I won't forget.

Like landing at KBGR with the weather down to mins, an icy runway, and crosswinds near the max for the runway condition.

Or when I landed at Goose Bay in Canada (CYYR), crosswinds were 25 knot component, but the winds were gusting 40-45 knots. Could have diverted to Gander, but the conditions were likely to be the same there and I would only have enough gas to get it on the ground, no other divert options. In the flare, the airplane caught a gust, banked about 20 degrees left wing down, right as I was about to shove the throttles up for a go around, it settled into a wing level attitude, and I just let it land. After we shut down, I had to lean into the wind to make it to the FBO door.

I had to fly into Telluride once, and if you didn't do your homework, you would land too heavy to take off later. You're groundspeeds are higher at 9,200' PA, and that makes landing on a 6700' runway interesting. That plus the 1,500' cliffs surrounding the airport make for interesting vertical turbulence on final and a pretty astounding visual illusion as well. 14,000' high mountains on the other end pretty much mean go arounds are interesting, if not dangerous.

There are a few more I could go into, but it's all about the same. Low ceilings, gusty winds, you name it. Basically, though, the idea that military pilots get their hands held is nonsense. Part 121 pilots are supported 10 times better than we are. We fly into the same civilian airports you do, plus the military fields. Most military fields don't have a special tower to check your landing gear, only fighter and training bases. And even at that, if you're not a fighter or trainer, you're handled by the regular tower anyways.

 

[Whidbey]

Great Posts.

English,

I'd never claim that there weren't guys that are goofs flying in the military... in fact, some of them end up with a lot of rank on their shoulder!

I didn't mean I'd ONLY want a fighter guy there, just that I wouldn't mind it. Maybe I should have been more clear. Hopefully after a little more time learning how to fly something big your sim partner did better.


Vette,

Great posts. There are countless guys including me that would give their left one to be 28 with a grand of turbine pic and 4500 total- that's pretty extraordinary! Are you an Embry Riddle guy, have you got your degree? I know I'm not qualified to make the call but It sounds like you could be somewhere flying big jets.

I listen in awe at some of the things my civilian buddies tell me, and I'd never say "that's civilian time, anybody can do that." That's just ridiculous. There are guys everywhere in life that need to say those sort of things to people to feel good about themselves. (Is this the Dr. Phil website or the flying one...) I have a lot of guys on the civilian side that I consider mentors to me in the flying game, that I know have a wealth of knowledge and experience that is of value to any young pilot. With your experience I guarantee you could teach me a thing or three out of the FAR/AIM. It is worthy of note that military guys have numerous tactical manuals and pubs that make the FAR/AIM look like light reading. It's no excuse, but it can lead to dropping knowledge that the civilian guys seem to stay better focused on.

I wish I had a better hack on my exact flight time breakdowns like you do (hey, they own my a$$ for 4 or 5 more years anyways, who cares?) I'm 28 as well. I guess about half, or a bit more than that (and this is a W.A.G.) of my three hundred hours in flight school were solo. When you get to the Prowler RAG you fly one hop on the right of another pilot (the only set of controls is on the left). Then like 6 hops with a pilot on your right, then you start flying with NFO's. Those guys have mission related quals (ie mission commander) but any time you are in the left seat you are the AC and of course the only pilot in the jet.

Get this- between me getting my wings and getting back behind the stick in a Prowler it was a full year of ground school- not a single flight. Not flight related stuff but mission stuff mostly in the ground school. Totally a morale killer! Here's another bummer- the way a Navy guy's commitment timing works, we usually get stuck doing some sort of non flying job on a ship for our last year or two if we get out at our first chance. It kills your skills and your currency for airline interviews if you don't want to stay military.

Any military bubba would kill to get 900 a year. With your flying experience you would be accelerated through the initial 6 months of flight training and be expected to be a top performer. This is standard practice in the VT's. Flight time prior to military experience, as I can attest, is a great advantage in about the first 60-100 hours of flying. After that, as the task load increases, students tend to even out.

I have lots of military buddies who have extensive experience before joining, I had my private. Another buddy has about 5000, has built several airplanes, and has a great deal of experience on the outside. He agrees with the conclusion in my previous post, as I suspect most folks who have flown on both sides would... but-

I think a military guy with more civvy experience (or someone now in the majors) would be more qualified to address this question than I am. Someone who has a load of experience on both sides.

Great posts. You always learn something on flightinfo.

 

[vetteracer]

Great Post WhidBey, very informative.

Are you an Embry Riddle guy, have you got your degree? I know I'm not qualified to make the call but It sounds like you could be somewhere flying big jets.

No, not a riddle dude, I went to SDSU (South Dakota State University) BS- Aviation Education. I started flying when I was 14, So half my life ago, (Darn I just noticed that). As far as the big jets, it is anybody’s guess. No 121 time and no JET PIC time so I guess I have one arm and one leg.


It is worthy of note that military guys have numerous tactical manuals and pubs that make the FAR/AIM look like light reading. It's no excuse, but it can lead to dropping knowledge that the civilian guys seem to stay better focused on.

I would believe that. I have a great friend that is a 16 driver full time for the Guard. He flew for ACA for a few years before the guard gig and has great perspective for both. I asked many of these questions to him and his basic answer is they are very different types of flying. What is expected of you in the military as far as academics are incredible. He said he did more work training in the 16 then he did in 4 years of college.

Mark

 

[mmase7]

Military Minimums

We do!

We do that, plus fly a jet designed for civil use (Learjet 35) into Iraqi airfields, performing tactical approaches (3000 fpm spiral-down patterns from 15,000 feet to avoid getting hit by ground fire), and operate in an environment where squawking the wrong codes could get you shot down.

Naval Aviators (multi-piloted aircraft) can shoot approaches down to 0/0 as well as Special Instrument card holders can take off 0/0...