When transitioning from the military to the airlines, if you were not the pilot of a fixed wing aircraft, what would look better when trying to get an airline job? Being a helo pilot or being a navigator? Is there a specfic type of navigator that would be prefered over another (heavy over fighter)? Also, comming from the military as a helo pilot or navigator, you could only get a job at a regional airline correct?
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JimNtexas
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I got tons of stick time in F-4s and F-111s. If one has a multiengine rating one can even log it as the famous "sole manipulator" time (given that there is no type rating for F-4s and F-111s).mudkow60 said:
I certainly think that if the world was fair that airlines and the FAA would recognize my navigator flying time. Certainly an airline would get better pilots if it counted WSO time towards at least some of their hiring minimums.
Unfortunately "fair" is what you pay to get on the bus. In the world in which we actually live nav time is of little value for any civilian purpose.
Dragon's Fire
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S-3 Viking
It is true that S-3B NFOs can log SIC if they have their multiengine rating, they are NATOPs qualifed, and they are in the front right seat. The FAA went around and around with this one in San Diego. There are 2 sets of controls in the S-3, but the Navy decided years ago to put an NFO over there to save money. For all intensive purposes, they do the same thing as a copilot in a 737 does. No PIC time though. I know several S-3 NFOs that fly with the commuters. I know one that is a furloughed Delta guy, that is getting recalled in the fall. Too bad the good old Viking is going away...
It is true that S-3B NFOs can log SIC if they have their multiengine rating, they are NATOPs qualifed, and they are in the front right seat. The FAA went around and around with this one in San Diego. There are 2 sets of controls in the S-3, but the Navy decided years ago to put an NFO over there to save money. For all intensive purposes, they do the same thing as a copilot in a 737 does. No PIC time though. I know several S-3 NFOs that fly with the commuters. I know one that is a furloughed Delta guy, that is getting recalled in the fall. Too bad the good old Viking is going away...
vetteracer
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Quote
Certainly an airline would get better pilots if it counted WSO time towards at least some of their hiring minimums.
In what regards? Better navigation abilities?
I think just the opposite as you, I think the military pilots get the breaks. I have 4000+ hours and it is looked at the same as a military pilot with 1500 hours. Is it better time??? I have no one to help me make go no go decisions, no one to sit at the end of the runway and watch to make sure my landing gear is down. No weather specialist to interpret weather for me. Most of my time is single pilot, day not IFR with no autopilot. How many military pilots shoot approaches with only a visibility requirement of 1800 RVR and indefinite ceilings. We have a retired Air Force guy that flies with us and he cannot believe half the stuff we do. The strips we go in and out of, circling approaches, dealing with ice, thunderstorms etc.
Mark
Certainly an airline would get better pilots if it counted WSO time towards at least some of their hiring minimums.
In what regards? Better navigation abilities?
I think just the opposite as you, I think the military pilots get the breaks. I have 4000+ hours and it is looked at the same as a military pilot with 1500 hours. Is it better time??? I have no one to help me make go no go decisions, no one to sit at the end of the runway and watch to make sure my landing gear is down. No weather specialist to interpret weather for me. Most of my time is single pilot, day not IFR with no autopilot. How many military pilots shoot approaches with only a visibility requirement of 1800 RVR and indefinite ceilings. We have a retired Air Force guy that flies with us and he cannot believe half the stuff we do. The strips we go in and out of, circling approaches, dealing with ice, thunderstorms etc.
Mark
JimNtexas
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Cry me a river.vetteracer said:
Go fly an 80,000lb airplane at 400 feet agl at 480-520 knots in mountains at night, then come back and talk to me about "navigation ability". You have no clue what your're talking about.
I told the guy that his nav time counted for nothing. That's the way it is, and we former navs have to accept it. I'd say that a civil trained pilot X number of piston hours and a thousand hours of F-111right seat time would be ever so slightly more qualified to fly a heavy fast swept wing jet aircraft than an identical civil-trained pilot with no jet time. I'd go so far as to say that WSO time is more like pilot time than sitting sideways running the air conditioners. But what do I know? I'm just a nav. That's my opinion. I know nobody agrees with me, and I told the original questioner the hard truth that nav time is of no value in the civilian world.
Even though I was only a navigator I am at least man enough not to engage in one of these poor-me pity parties that so many civilian pilots seem to enjoy so much.
vetteracer
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I re-read my post and see how it came of one sided, that is not what I intended. I wrote off hand and did not articulate my point well.
Let me re-elaborate. I think neither Civ nor Mil has an appreciation for what the other does. We can go back and forth on each other’s experiences and still have no end.
Flying around the mountains at 400 AGL has no application to Airlines. From my experience employers look for PIC time. As this is the only way to gauge how long a person has been making decisions and being responsible for the aircraft. As well as instrument skills and a concrete knowledge of instrument flying. Many airline applications ask for PIC time in 135 or 121. So no 91 time or instruction. Is it fair?
I was not complaining about the situation, just making an observation. I think airlines and many employers prefer military pilots vs. civilian pilots because they know what they are getting.
I am not crying a pity party for myself; I understand the gig and just make my may towards my goal as the rules change. I just get the feeling from some of these posts and from many of the Mil pilots that I have run across that there experience out weights civ experience.
If you are referring to FE time being counted and not NAV time, that does not seem to be an equal standard.
I take it you are an ex-NAV guy and now flying in the civ world. So you will have the experience of both sides and that will put you ahead of an identical applicant with no Mil time, even if you cannot add the time to your app.
Mark
Let me re-elaborate. I think neither Civ nor Mil has an appreciation for what the other does. We can go back and forth on each other’s experiences and still have no end.
Flying around the mountains at 400 AGL has no application to Airlines. From my experience employers look for PIC time. As this is the only way to gauge how long a person has been making decisions and being responsible for the aircraft. As well as instrument skills and a concrete knowledge of instrument flying. Many airline applications ask for PIC time in 135 or 121. So no 91 time or instruction. Is it fair?
I was not complaining about the situation, just making an observation. I think airlines and many employers prefer military pilots vs. civilian pilots because they know what they are getting.
I am not crying a pity party for myself; I understand the gig and just make my may towards my goal as the rules change. I just get the feeling from some of these posts and from many of the Mil pilots that I have run across that there experience out weights civ experience.
If you are referring to FE time being counted and not NAV time, that does not seem to be an equal standard.
I take it you are an ex-NAV guy and now flying in the civ world. So you will have the experience of both sides and that will put you ahead of an identical applicant with no Mil time, even if you cannot add the time to your app.
Mark
Jim
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Actually I think I have a pretty good appreciation as I have done both. My military time was as a NFO ("Navy Nav") and my pilot time is all civilian. Plus I've done the FE thing too.vetteracer said:
There is no question that my NFO time made me a better pilot. My NFO time did far more for my pilot skills than my FE time too. NFO/Navs are "big picture" guys. Seeing the big picture is what keeps NFOs/Navs alive when their pilots are zeroed in on the task at hand and forget about the mountain, etc. As part of the big picture, NFOs/Navs are monitoring the approaches, monitoring the fuel, taking care of the radios - all the duties of a non-flying pilot. They know the aircraft systems and capabilities as well as the pilots do. The only thing lacking is the monkey skills of moving the stick and power levers. All these things become second nature and when a NFO/Nav moves into a pilot seat, they are already acquired skills and he can concentrate on getting the stick and power lever part right.
Further, when an NFO/Nav goes to the pilot seat, he take this "big picture" view with him and therefore find making "Captain decisions" easy. Decision making is one of the weakest areas for new pilots and newly upgraded Captains. For the former NFO/Nav, it's a long acquired skill and not a problem.
As far as military pilots go, I was a squadron training officer, worked for the Training Wing in Pensacola and ran a training facility with P-3 and H-60 simulators. I have been deeply involved in both military pilot and NFO/Nav training. On the civilian side, I attended and taught at both part 61 and 141 pilot training schools. I have also completed one part 135, two part 142 and three part 121 training courses. Military pilots (and NFOs/Navs) get their initial edge in that their training is at least the caliber/standard of part 121 civilian training from day one. Civilian training is not. Further, the military pilots (especially the single seat guys) are also taught to maintain the "big picture" from day one. This is necessary because besides being a pilot, they have to be a tactician and maybe an element/flight/strike leader. Multitasking is an everyday part of flying to an extent a civilian pilot does not see until he is a Captain.
Civilian training is fine for airline pilot going from point A to B. Military training gives you that skill plus more. Further, a military pilot has already shown he has what it takes to pass that first 121 training course. With a civilian pilot, an employer is less sure. That is why an employer will take a chance on a military pilot with lower times than a civilian pilot. And yes it was just as frustrating for me as it is for you - like JimNTexas, my NFO time is meaningless to the civilian world and I had to meet the higher pilot times.
As far as the flying around at 400AGL and only counting 135/121 PIC time comments, this too relates the "big picture" thing. Airlines hire Captains, not First Officers. Not killing yourself while flying at 400AGL, completing a complicated mission, shooting an instrument approach to minimums (with no autopilot/flight director and while flying a TACAN needle- much harder than an ILS, more like an NDB) while being physically and mentally exhausted (from pulling 6 g's and leading the strike) shows you can prioritize and maintain the "big picture". In other words, you can be a Captain. The only thing an employer has to gauge a civilian pilot on is his 135/121 PIC time. (Here again, the NFO/Nav does this sort of stuff too - only in the equivalent of non-flying pilot role. But Captains have to be good NFPs too.)
The FAA will allow you to count some FE time towards an ATP. I feel they should allow NFO/Nav time in a similar manner. It is better than FE time. In the mid-1980s, a couple of FAA inspectors out of San Francisco felt the same way and worked with the Navy at Moffet Field to try and get this approved. Unfortunately, FAA legal equated military NFO/Nav time to civilian Flight Navigator time and shot it down. Other than the names being similar, they are as different as night and day.
Bottom-line. It's not that the military pilots are better at flying airliners than civilian pilots; it's that employers have more data points to use when judging their flying skills and potential to be good Captains. Like you said, "they know what they are getting." Like JimNTexas, I believe NFO/Nav time should be allowed in some fashion. It too allows an employer to "know what he is getting". But it will never happen because there is no civilian counterpart to the NFO/Nav and employers will never become educated on what we do.
Just my 2 cents.
Last edited:
MarineKC130
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Are you serious?
When was the last time you had to be concerned not only with flying from point a to point b, but also trying to avoid people who want to kill you; integrating into a larger scheme of maneuver; coordinating with multiple ATC / AWACS agencies as well as ground units at the same time; flying a high-performance aircraft that has to do some feat (drop bombs, drop cargo, employ sensors, etc) other than solely aviating?
When was the last time that you had to temper your go-no go decisions with the fact that other people's lives may depend on you going?
When is the last time you had to fly almost every night for months on end, while trying to get sleep during the day in a tent in 130 degree heat?
When was the last time that you had to operate your aircraft late at night low in some of the most rugged mountains in the world, trying to peer through the suspended dust with night vision goggles, snaking your way through valleys and over ridges, then slowing down from 250KIAS to approach speed in a matter of a few miles at 500', hitting glideslope 1 minute out from touchdown on a 4500' dirt strip at 4500' elevation and 35 degrees celsius, knowing that all your procedures have to be perfect in order to avoid running off the end of the runway into a hill 1000' beyond and igniting your 130,000 lb aircraft that is full of fuel?
While there are wheels watches and LSOs to watch out for military pilots, these safeguards are usually only for training or on aircraft carriers (when's the last time you tried to land your plane on the roof of a building that was pitching, rolling, and moving away from you at 30 knots). Squadrons do have operations sections that work on planning, but that is usually because squadrons fly complex missions that require integration of multiple aircraft into one plan. Every military aircraft commander is responsible for the basic aviation planning you do (performance calcs, preflight planning of departure, route and approach, weather, NOTAMS, etc) in addition to much more in depth planning having to do with the tactical picture.
You have no idea what we do, so keep your mouth shut. Don't even try to shoot back, because I'm in a very hot, unfriendly place and don't have a lot of patience anymore.
When was the last time you had to be concerned not only with flying from point a to point b, but also trying to avoid people who want to kill you; integrating into a larger scheme of maneuver; coordinating with multiple ATC / AWACS agencies as well as ground units at the same time; flying a high-performance aircraft that has to do some feat (drop bombs, drop cargo, employ sensors, etc) other than solely aviating?
When was the last time that you had to temper your go-no go decisions with the fact that other people's lives may depend on you going?
When is the last time you had to fly almost every night for months on end, while trying to get sleep during the day in a tent in 130 degree heat?
When was the last time that you had to operate your aircraft late at night low in some of the most rugged mountains in the world, trying to peer through the suspended dust with night vision goggles, snaking your way through valleys and over ridges, then slowing down from 250KIAS to approach speed in a matter of a few miles at 500', hitting glideslope 1 minute out from touchdown on a 4500' dirt strip at 4500' elevation and 35 degrees celsius, knowing that all your procedures have to be perfect in order to avoid running off the end of the runway into a hill 1000' beyond and igniting your 130,000 lb aircraft that is full of fuel?
While there are wheels watches and LSOs to watch out for military pilots, these safeguards are usually only for training or on aircraft carriers (when's the last time you tried to land your plane on the roof of a building that was pitching, rolling, and moving away from you at 30 knots). Squadrons do have operations sections that work on planning, but that is usually because squadrons fly complex missions that require integration of multiple aircraft into one plan. Every military aircraft commander is responsible for the basic aviation planning you do (performance calcs, preflight planning of departure, route and approach, weather, NOTAMS, etc) in addition to much more in depth planning having to do with the tactical picture.
You have no idea what we do, so keep your mouth shut. Don't even try to shoot back, because I'm in a very hot, unfriendly place and don't have a lot of patience anymore.
vetteracer
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QUOTE
"When was the last time that you had to temper your go-no go decisions with the fact that other People’s lives may depend on you going?"
EVERY DAY!!!!! I am an Air Ambulance pilot, every time I make a go no go decision someone either lives or dies. I have saved over 1000 lives. And on some days, well, we can’t help.
When is the last time you had to fly almost every night for months on end, while trying to get sleep during the day in a tent in 130 degree heat?
We work some pretty rough schedules, day night, VFR-IFR rain, thunderstorms, ¼ mile vis, rain, freezing rain etc.
"When was the last time that you had to operate your aircraft late at night low in some of the most rugged mountains in the world, trying to peer through the suspended dust with night vision goggles, snaking your way through valleys and over ridges, then slowing down from 250KIAS to approach speed in a matter of a few miles at 500', hitting glideslope 1 minute out from touchdown on a 4500' dirt strip at 4500' elevation and 35 degrees celsius, knowing that all your procedures have to be perfect in order to avoid running off the end of the runway into a hill 1000' beyond and igniting your 130,000 lb aircraft that is full of fuel?"
Ever fly a 402 or 310 in freezing rain and intercept the localizer a mile from the airport and never intercept the glideslope because you are below it and can not climb. Or take of in a king air loaded to the gills out of a 3000 foot strip with unaccpetable terrain on either end. We can go round and round. Military pilots are not the only guys that have to peal the seat out of there azz after a flight.
We service some of the most intolarable airfields in the country, with half of the lights working, no app lights etc, and no night vision equipment.
I have flown approaches to ¼ mile indefinite ceilings, with a women giving birth and screaming 3 feet behind me.
Re-read the previous posts and will note that I mentioned I have a respect for military pilots and what they do, and for those that have only flown on one side probably do not have a full appreciation to what each other do.
Your post was purely an attack, it conveyed nothing to the discussion. We have retired military pilots that fly for us. These guys have spent 30 years flying fighters, heavy’s etc. And they think the job they have now is far more stressful then anything in the military. 20 minutes from flight page out to gear up and on the way, so we have to make half of it up as we go.
So how does tactical fighting in an aircraft relate to the airlines? That was the discussion, re-read the post instead of just making an attack. Contribute something.
coordinating with multiple ATC / AWACS agencies as well as ground units at the same time; flying a high-performance aircraft that has to do some feat (drop bombs, drop cargo, employ sensors, etc) other than solely aviating?
WHAT, every day we deal with ATC. Poor airports, no radar coverage, weather issues. Etc.
slowing down from 250KIAS to approach speed in a matter of a few miles at 500',
-We fly 250 to the marker daily.
You have no idea what we do, so keep your mouth shut. Don't even try to shoot back, because I'm in a very hot, unfriendly place and don't have a lot of patience anymore.
I value your opinion as much as 2 cents, and to keep my mouth shut, is that a threat?
I have shot back and if you are unhappy with what you are doing, then resign and come home. I would not bitch one moment about serving my country.
Your venting and verbal assualt will be taken with a grain of salt. If I can be an outlet for you to keep you sanity for one more day than I am glad I could help you.
MARK
"When was the last time that you had to temper your go-no go decisions with the fact that other People’s lives may depend on you going?"
EVERY DAY!!!!! I am an Air Ambulance pilot, every time I make a go no go decision someone either lives or dies. I have saved over 1000 lives. And on some days, well, we can’t help.
When is the last time you had to fly almost every night for months on end, while trying to get sleep during the day in a tent in 130 degree heat?
We work some pretty rough schedules, day night, VFR-IFR rain, thunderstorms, ¼ mile vis, rain, freezing rain etc.
"When was the last time that you had to operate your aircraft late at night low in some of the most rugged mountains in the world, trying to peer through the suspended dust with night vision goggles, snaking your way through valleys and over ridges, then slowing down from 250KIAS to approach speed in a matter of a few miles at 500', hitting glideslope 1 minute out from touchdown on a 4500' dirt strip at 4500' elevation and 35 degrees celsius, knowing that all your procedures have to be perfect in order to avoid running off the end of the runway into a hill 1000' beyond and igniting your 130,000 lb aircraft that is full of fuel?"
Ever fly a 402 or 310 in freezing rain and intercept the localizer a mile from the airport and never intercept the glideslope because you are below it and can not climb. Or take of in a king air loaded to the gills out of a 3000 foot strip with unaccpetable terrain on either end. We can go round and round. Military pilots are not the only guys that have to peal the seat out of there azz after a flight.
We service some of the most intolarable airfields in the country, with half of the lights working, no app lights etc, and no night vision equipment.
I have flown approaches to ¼ mile indefinite ceilings, with a women giving birth and screaming 3 feet behind me.
Re-read the previous posts and will note that I mentioned I have a respect for military pilots and what they do, and for those that have only flown on one side probably do not have a full appreciation to what each other do.
Your post was purely an attack, it conveyed nothing to the discussion. We have retired military pilots that fly for us. These guys have spent 30 years flying fighters, heavy’s etc. And they think the job they have now is far more stressful then anything in the military. 20 minutes from flight page out to gear up and on the way, so we have to make half of it up as we go.
So how does tactical fighting in an aircraft relate to the airlines? That was the discussion, re-read the post instead of just making an attack. Contribute something.
coordinating with multiple ATC / AWACS agencies as well as ground units at the same time; flying a high-performance aircraft that has to do some feat (drop bombs, drop cargo, employ sensors, etc) other than solely aviating?
WHAT, every day we deal with ATC. Poor airports, no radar coverage, weather issues. Etc.
slowing down from 250KIAS to approach speed in a matter of a few miles at 500',
-We fly 250 to the marker daily.
You have no idea what we do, so keep your mouth shut. Don't even try to shoot back, because I'm in a very hot, unfriendly place and don't have a lot of patience anymore.
I value your opinion as much as 2 cents, and to keep my mouth shut, is that a threat?
I have shot back and if you are unhappy with what you are doing, then resign and come home. I would not bitch one moment about serving my country.
Your venting and verbal assualt will be taken with a grain of salt. If I can be an outlet for you to keep you sanity for one more day than I am glad I could help you.
MARK
Chill out
You boys need to chill out. Both of times are good, but different. And all of your points are valid. No need to be so defensive.
My partner when I went through 737 training was an ASA captain with twice the hours I had. Both of us brought different skills to the table. He was a fantastic system manager, and great at CRM. He could fly a great ILS, and knew a lot about how the airlines work. I found that I was a better at the stick and rudder skills. Flying VFR descending turning pattern at the back of the ship really taught me how to put the airplane where I wanted it. I had no problem with the circling to land approach in the 737, but my partner was absolutely terrified of it (and he wasn't very good at it either.) But when it came to flows, flight directors, talking to dispatch, and knowing how airlines work, I was clueless.
I thought all things being equal at that point in time, he would be a much better candidate for the airlines than I was, but I know I'm TRAINABLE. I think that's what the airlines are looking for. I'm not saying that civilian pilots aren't as trainable, just that military pilots are a known quantity. An airline knows exactly what they are getting when they hire military. They know exactly what kind of program an aviator went through to earn their wings. There are so many different ways for a civilian to get their qualifications and hours, it's much more of an unknown.
As far as the hours go, civilians tend to spend a lot more time airborne going from point A to point B. Yes there may be a lot of stress and bad weather on takeoff and landing, but the 3 hours in between is mostly wings level. I have 2150 hours with 1160 sorties. That's an average of 1 hours 50 min per flight, and most of that 1.8 hours I was actually doing something. Bombing pattern, low levels, tanking, formation, etc. Yes, some of it was cross-country wings level time, and some of it was holding overhead of the ship. Any military pilot that tries to sell you that all of their time is high stress is full of crap.
The other bias we have to take into factor is that most of the old guys in the airlines are ex-military. It hasn’t been until recent history that civilians were ever hired is such high quantity. The main reasons are because the military upped it commitment to 8 years, and hasn’t trained as many pilots as it has in decades past.
As for my partner and I, I got called by SWA for an interview first. I don’t know why. He is a great pilot, a fantastic person, and was really easy to work with. I hope he gets called soon.
Arguing who is better, civilian or military is like arguing if creamy peanut butter is better than crunchy. (Everyone knows creamy is better.) It’s not our decision so don’t worry about it.
Can I get a witness?
You boys need to chill out. Both of times are good, but different. And all of your points are valid. No need to be so defensive.
My partner when I went through 737 training was an ASA captain with twice the hours I had. Both of us brought different skills to the table. He was a fantastic system manager, and great at CRM. He could fly a great ILS, and knew a lot about how the airlines work. I found that I was a better at the stick and rudder skills. Flying VFR descending turning pattern at the back of the ship really taught me how to put the airplane where I wanted it. I had no problem with the circling to land approach in the 737, but my partner was absolutely terrified of it (and he wasn't very good at it either.) But when it came to flows, flight directors, talking to dispatch, and knowing how airlines work, I was clueless.
I thought all things being equal at that point in time, he would be a much better candidate for the airlines than I was, but I know I'm TRAINABLE. I think that's what the airlines are looking for. I'm not saying that civilian pilots aren't as trainable, just that military pilots are a known quantity. An airline knows exactly what they are getting when they hire military. They know exactly what kind of program an aviator went through to earn their wings. There are so many different ways for a civilian to get their qualifications and hours, it's much more of an unknown.
As far as the hours go, civilians tend to spend a lot more time airborne going from point A to point B. Yes there may be a lot of stress and bad weather on takeoff and landing, but the 3 hours in between is mostly wings level. I have 2150 hours with 1160 sorties. That's an average of 1 hours 50 min per flight, and most of that 1.8 hours I was actually doing something. Bombing pattern, low levels, tanking, formation, etc. Yes, some of it was cross-country wings level time, and some of it was holding overhead of the ship. Any military pilot that tries to sell you that all of their time is high stress is full of crap.
The other bias we have to take into factor is that most of the old guys in the airlines are ex-military. It hasn’t been until recent history that civilians were ever hired is such high quantity. The main reasons are because the military upped it commitment to 8 years, and hasn’t trained as many pilots as it has in decades past.
As for my partner and I, I got called by SWA for an interview first. I don’t know why. He is a great pilot, a fantastic person, and was really easy to work with. I hope he gets called soon.
Arguing who is better, civilian or military is like arguing if creamy peanut butter is better than crunchy. (Everyone knows creamy is better.) It’s not our decision so don’t worry about it.
Can I get a witness?
MarineKC130
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Nowhere in my post did I complain about what we do. I love what we do. I am not going to come home and resign and you trying to twist my words that way is not appreciated. The only part of my job that sucks is being away from family so much (over 14 months in 2 years). Other than that, it is hot, sweaty, tiring, dangerous, thankless work and I wouldn't give it up for anything. I took exception to your post not because I think your hours are worthless or because I expect preferential treatment by airline HR folks (I don't even want to fly airlines) but because you pointed a finger in our direction and basically how you're better than us because you don't have weather specialists, wheels watches, etc. You spoke out of turn with no knowledge of what we do. I have no doubt that air ambulance work is dangerous and trying. But no more so than what we are doing out here so you can sit at home with your family and run your mouth at how your time is better than ours. So, vetteracer, I think your time is probably somewhere close to as trying as ours, but I still think you have no idea what you're talking about.
vetteracer
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ORIGINAL POST
Certainly an airline would get better pilots if it counted WSO time towards at least some of their hiring minimums.
In what regards? Better navigation abilities?
I think just the opposite as you, I think the military pilots get the breaks. I have 4000+ hours and it is looked at the same as a military pilot with 1500 hours. Is it better time??? I have no one to help me make go no go decisions, no one to sit at the end of the runway and watch to make sure my landing gear is down. No weather specialist to interpret weather for me. Most of my time is single pilot, day not IFR with no autopilot. How many military pilots shoot approaches with only a visibility requirement of 1800 RVR and indefinite ceilings. We have a retired Air Force guy that flies with us and he cannot believe half the stuff we do. The strips we go in and out of, circling approaches, dealing with ice, thunderstorms etc.
Mark
What was argued here was the function of WSO or NAV time being counted as flight time and accepted for airline applications. That was the indictment, not any argument about military pilots. I spoke out of turn and then I posted-
-I re-read my post and see how it came of one sided, that is not what I intended. I wrote off hand and did not articulate my point well.
Let me re-elaborate. I think neither Civ nor Mil has an appreciation for what the other does. We can go back and forth on each other’s experiences and still have no end.
So the discussion was going some where. –
Then JIM added –
Actually I think I have a pretty good appreciation as I have done both. My military time was as a NFO ("Navy Nav") and my pilot time is all civilian. Plus I've done the FE thing too.
SO I got a lesson on the subject and agreed that sitting sideways was no more qualifying then NFO or WSO or nav time, even less maybe. And that it should be counted.
"Nowhere in my post did I complain about what we do".
-You have no idea what we do, so keep your mouth shut. Don't even try to shoot back, because I'm in a very hot, unfriendly place and don't have a lot of patience anymore.
Sounds like a complaint to me- But, understadable, !
So, vetteracer, I think your time is probably somewhere close to as trying as ours, but I still think you have no idea what you're talking about.
Thanks for the compliment.
I am not trying to make this post about who has the bigger wiener, or who is more of a hero or who is Chuck Yeager or whatever you chose to have peeing rights for.
One of my best friends is an F-16 driver and Sqd Ldr. So I understand all well what the military is like. I have other buddies from college that fly 135’s and speak with the often. We have an air base right on our field. I get this more often my way, then the other way, "Man, your kidding me, you guys went flying today"!
I am proud of our military and do not want to hold them short in any venue.
We can go round and round about being heroes and who is more important if you want to take the post in that direction. But as an officer and a graduate I am sure that you are above that.
I will extend an olive branch and apologies if I, in any way I offended you. I am sure someday if we are in the cockpit together we can settle this over an arm wrestling contest.
Good luck and be safe, and return to your family asap.
Mark
Certainly an airline would get better pilots if it counted WSO time towards at least some of their hiring minimums.
In what regards? Better navigation abilities?
I think just the opposite as you, I think the military pilots get the breaks. I have 4000+ hours and it is looked at the same as a military pilot with 1500 hours. Is it better time??? I have no one to help me make go no go decisions, no one to sit at the end of the runway and watch to make sure my landing gear is down. No weather specialist to interpret weather for me. Most of my time is single pilot, day not IFR with no autopilot. How many military pilots shoot approaches with only a visibility requirement of 1800 RVR and indefinite ceilings. We have a retired Air Force guy that flies with us and he cannot believe half the stuff we do. The strips we go in and out of, circling approaches, dealing with ice, thunderstorms etc.
Mark
What was argued here was the function of WSO or NAV time being counted as flight time and accepted for airline applications. That was the indictment, not any argument about military pilots. I spoke out of turn and then I posted-
-I re-read my post and see how it came of one sided, that is not what I intended. I wrote off hand and did not articulate my point well.
Let me re-elaborate. I think neither Civ nor Mil has an appreciation for what the other does. We can go back and forth on each other’s experiences and still have no end.
So the discussion was going some where. –
Then JIM added –
Actually I think I have a pretty good appreciation as I have done both. My military time was as a NFO ("Navy Nav") and my pilot time is all civilian. Plus I've done the FE thing too.
SO I got a lesson on the subject and agreed that sitting sideways was no more qualifying then NFO or WSO or nav time, even less maybe. And that it should be counted.
"Nowhere in my post did I complain about what we do".
-You have no idea what we do, so keep your mouth shut. Don't even try to shoot back, because I'm in a very hot, unfriendly place and don't have a lot of patience anymore.
Sounds like a complaint to me- But, understadable, !
So, vetteracer, I think your time is probably somewhere close to as trying as ours, but I still think you have no idea what you're talking about.
Thanks for the compliment.
I am not trying to make this post about who has the bigger wiener, or who is more of a hero or who is Chuck Yeager or whatever you chose to have peeing rights for.
One of my best friends is an F-16 driver and Sqd Ldr. So I understand all well what the military is like. I have other buddies from college that fly 135’s and speak with the often. We have an air base right on our field. I get this more often my way, then the other way, "Man, your kidding me, you guys went flying today"!
I am proud of our military and do not want to hold them short in any venue.
We can go round and round about being heroes and who is more important if you want to take the post in that direction. But as an officer and a graduate I am sure that you are above that.
I will extend an olive branch and apologies if I, in any way I offended you. I am sure someday if we are in the cockpit together we can settle this over an arm wrestling contest.
Good luck and be safe, and return to your family asap.
Mark
vetteracer
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Kuma
Happy to be here!
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BrianNYC-
If you want to fly for an airline, you need to have fixed wing time.
Military helo pilots can get slots to be military fixed wing instructors at the UPT level. For many, this is the way they get the required amounts of fixed wing time. Navigators do not have that option.
Both helo pilots and navigators can build their time in the civilian market via CFI etc.
Sometimes, helo flight time counts...my buddy got a job with ASA in 1998 with 1500 rotor hours and 200 fixed wing hours. They needed pilots and they hired him. Now days, all the helo time in the world means nothing for airline hiring. The airlines have plenty of out of work pilots to choose from.
Bottom line is don't expect any of your military flying to count unless it is fixed wing pilot time.
Just like gear_guy said, check out www.aptap.org The website is run by army rotary wing pilots whose goal is to fly for an airline. You'd probably get some good insight.
Good luck with your decisions-
Kuma
If you want to fly for an airline, you need to have fixed wing time.
Military helo pilots can get slots to be military fixed wing instructors at the UPT level. For many, this is the way they get the required amounts of fixed wing time. Navigators do not have that option.
Both helo pilots and navigators can build their time in the civilian market via CFI etc.
Sometimes, helo flight time counts...my buddy got a job with ASA in 1998 with 1500 rotor hours and 200 fixed wing hours. They needed pilots and they hired him. Now days, all the helo time in the world means nothing for airline hiring. The airlines have plenty of out of work pilots to choose from.
Bottom line is don't expect any of your military flying to count unless it is fixed wing pilot time.
Just like gear_guy said, check out www.aptap.org The website is run by army rotary wing pilots whose goal is to fly for an airline. You'd probably get some good insight.
Good luck with your decisions-
Kuma
HueyPilot
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1800 Rvr
We do that, plus fly a jet designed for civil use (Learjet 35) into Iraqi airfields, performing tactical approaches (3000 fpm spiral-down patterns from 15,000 feet to avoid getting hit by ground fire), and operate in an environment where squawking the wrong codes could get you shot down.
We do!
We do that, plus fly a jet designed for civil use (Learjet 35) into Iraqi airfields, performing tactical approaches (3000 fpm spiral-down patterns from 15,000 feet to avoid getting hit by ground fire), and operate in an environment where squawking the wrong codes could get you shot down.
Last edited:
Whidbey
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- 21
Military vs. Civilian
Mark,
I thought your posts were great and they touch on a subject that seems to come up a lot on this website.
Your flying definitely sounds varsity to me, flying an air ambulance. I think a person could scarcely fly a more satisfying mission. Somebody's a$$ is on the line every time you crank the engines, your job is to help people and save lives. I’m sure things like weather mins and minimum equipment for flight have a whole new meaning with someone in desperate need of medical attention in the back.
The things that you discuss in your post are universals in aviation... dealing with emergencies, foul weather, decision making, and flying night after night on little or no sleep. These things also happen in military aviation to quite a great extent, and no matter what rules are published, what SOP's say, etc, we are put in situations where we must bend/break our rules- just as you are.
There was a really great article in IFR magazine some time around 94 to 98 about Carrier aviation. The guy did a great breakdown of the geometry of catching the three wire, and principles such as hook to eye and hook to ramp. There was an inset in the article by a former Tomcat guy turned airline bubba named Jay Bliss. He gave the (high) numbers of aircraft and aircrew lost in his airwing's time at sea. He said that ALL were lost at night or in IMC. So, no matter what us military guys say about our flying, oftentimes the things that kill us are the exact same things that kill our civilian counterparts. This lends credit to your post, and we have a great deal in common.
But I will respectfully submit the following for your consideration. I'm a young, relatively inexperienced guy just reaching my first thousand hours. A basic outline of my flying experiences are as follows- these milestones are typical for my buddies from flight school... and in most respects their experiences are much more demanding and dangerous than mine have been.
My first aerobatic solo was at about 25 hours of experience after countless spins in the old T-34, first formation flights after about 60 hours. Solo in a multiengine jet in less than 100 (less than that for our Air Force buds). Air to air gunnery at 200, dropping bombs at 220 and dogfights/seeing the back of an aircraft carrier for the first time at 250 hours. Wings at around 280, Night CQ at 350 and my first combat / getting shot at- at well below 400. That was as a 25 year old aircraft commander (single pilot) in a multi crew platform. A typical flight would be a 50 minute trip across Saudi at night to find the tanker in the clouds, about an hour and a half in country, tank, another 1.5 in country, backside tank, then back home for a night ILS to a gucci 10k air force runway. (Immeasurably easier than the boat at night).
Weather?... been there. EP's… in an old Grumman the list gets long quick. Engines, Hydraulics, electrical, hung gear, split flaps, explosive d, ruptured fuel cells pumping fuel into the cockpit. Night after night flying- we've all been there. I guarantee JimNTexas could post many more harrowing stories than I have. 400agl at night is the ULTIMATE in CRM/ACT- things I imagine the airlines value.
You said you had nobody helping you to make the right decisions. We'll often have people "helping," pressuring us to make the wrong ones, just as I'm sure you've had bosses do. It takes the same type of leadership for a young LT to stand up to pressure to do unsafe things that it does for a 10,000 hour captain to stand up to dispatch, etc. Military guys learn decision making young.
What does night tanking, or flying through the mountains at 400a have to do with airline flying? How about muliti-tasking skills? (The comms over a foreign country with jets coordinating a strike are far more busy than LA’s class B. I’ve been in both situations many times. Do you know how many different freqs your average tacair guy is on simultaneously? In my jet it’s three and they are all busy as heck. What does fighting another jet have to do with airline flying? How about comfort in a dynamic environment, an appropriate fear threshold, the experience of recovering an aircraft that has departed controlled flight. If I’m in the back of a 737 that has a rudder PCU fail, I'd like a fighter guy at the controls… even if he did scare off all the chicks at the bar.
And at only 1000 hours, 60 or 70 combat missions, with nearly half of my time in type being combat time, I've had it easier than so many other guys in other more demanding platforms, flying off the ship at night, etc.
As for the guys senior to me that are at the 1500-2000 hour mark that get the "easier" treatment from the airlines... They are in charge of 4 jets in a flight, the tactical mission planning (in addition to all standard flight planning), all on top of a ground job that is more than enough to employ a non-flyer full time. And yes, these guys do this in bad weather and at night as well.
I'm not an expert on civilian flying but I do have many civilian friends in the commuters and a couple that have made it big- and most of them got their first 500-1000 teaching stalls in a 152, then another 1500 as a FO.
Sir, with respect, how many of your 4500 hours are turbine PIC? About 700 of my first 1000 are.
Many CFIs and MEI’s wash out of Navy flight school. I’m sure icing up in a Cessna is scary as heck- but many guys with all the civvy experience in the world just can’t think at jet speeds.
Add up the number of cycles a military jet guy flies. Flight time builds slow flying 1.1's teaching in Kingsville or meridian. It would be interesting to compare the number of cycles in a military jet guy's logbook to a high time civilian's. (Hence conversion factors).
One last thing- go to the majors portion of this website and see what all the old military guys have to say about getting on with the airlines- how the stress level and nature of the flying compares to their military experience, and how happy they are to be where they are now. I guess that is something we could all learn something from.
I have not intended to boast on my own experiences, like I said the guys out there right now flying off the boat night at night really earn their money, as do our Air Force, Marine, and Army brothers. Everything I listed is standard for a military guy my age. I certainly have not meant to disrespect or belittle the experiences of civilian aviators. Some of your stories of flying air ambulance don’t sound fun at all, and were certainly challenging.
However, I believe military pilots deal with all the challenges dangers present in civilian aviation and much more- at an earlier age, lower flight time, and with superior training. That being said, I respectfully maintain that military experience warrants a significant hours bias in airline hiring over civilian candidates.
Mark,
I thought your posts were great and they touch on a subject that seems to come up a lot on this website.
Your flying definitely sounds varsity to me, flying an air ambulance. I think a person could scarcely fly a more satisfying mission. Somebody's a$$ is on the line every time you crank the engines, your job is to help people and save lives. I’m sure things like weather mins and minimum equipment for flight have a whole new meaning with someone in desperate need of medical attention in the back.
The things that you discuss in your post are universals in aviation... dealing with emergencies, foul weather, decision making, and flying night after night on little or no sleep. These things also happen in military aviation to quite a great extent, and no matter what rules are published, what SOP's say, etc, we are put in situations where we must bend/break our rules- just as you are.
There was a really great article in IFR magazine some time around 94 to 98 about Carrier aviation. The guy did a great breakdown of the geometry of catching the three wire, and principles such as hook to eye and hook to ramp. There was an inset in the article by a former Tomcat guy turned airline bubba named Jay Bliss. He gave the (high) numbers of aircraft and aircrew lost in his airwing's time at sea. He said that ALL were lost at night or in IMC. So, no matter what us military guys say about our flying, oftentimes the things that kill us are the exact same things that kill our civilian counterparts. This lends credit to your post, and we have a great deal in common.
But I will respectfully submit the following for your consideration. I'm a young, relatively inexperienced guy just reaching my first thousand hours. A basic outline of my flying experiences are as follows- these milestones are typical for my buddies from flight school... and in most respects their experiences are much more demanding and dangerous than mine have been.
My first aerobatic solo was at about 25 hours of experience after countless spins in the old T-34, first formation flights after about 60 hours. Solo in a multiengine jet in less than 100 (less than that for our Air Force buds). Air to air gunnery at 200, dropping bombs at 220 and dogfights/seeing the back of an aircraft carrier for the first time at 250 hours. Wings at around 280, Night CQ at 350 and my first combat / getting shot at- at well below 400. That was as a 25 year old aircraft commander (single pilot) in a multi crew platform. A typical flight would be a 50 minute trip across Saudi at night to find the tanker in the clouds, about an hour and a half in country, tank, another 1.5 in country, backside tank, then back home for a night ILS to a gucci 10k air force runway. (Immeasurably easier than the boat at night).
Weather?... been there. EP's… in an old Grumman the list gets long quick. Engines, Hydraulics, electrical, hung gear, split flaps, explosive d, ruptured fuel cells pumping fuel into the cockpit. Night after night flying- we've all been there. I guarantee JimNTexas could post many more harrowing stories than I have. 400agl at night is the ULTIMATE in CRM/ACT- things I imagine the airlines value.
You said you had nobody helping you to make the right decisions. We'll often have people "helping," pressuring us to make the wrong ones, just as I'm sure you've had bosses do. It takes the same type of leadership for a young LT to stand up to pressure to do unsafe things that it does for a 10,000 hour captain to stand up to dispatch, etc. Military guys learn decision making young.
What does night tanking, or flying through the mountains at 400a have to do with airline flying? How about muliti-tasking skills? (The comms over a foreign country with jets coordinating a strike are far more busy than LA’s class B. I’ve been in both situations many times. Do you know how many different freqs your average tacair guy is on simultaneously? In my jet it’s three and they are all busy as heck. What does fighting another jet have to do with airline flying? How about comfort in a dynamic environment, an appropriate fear threshold, the experience of recovering an aircraft that has departed controlled flight. If I’m in the back of a 737 that has a rudder PCU fail, I'd like a fighter guy at the controls… even if he did scare off all the chicks at the bar.
And at only 1000 hours, 60 or 70 combat missions, with nearly half of my time in type being combat time, I've had it easier than so many other guys in other more demanding platforms, flying off the ship at night, etc.
As for the guys senior to me that are at the 1500-2000 hour mark that get the "easier" treatment from the airlines... They are in charge of 4 jets in a flight, the tactical mission planning (in addition to all standard flight planning), all on top of a ground job that is more than enough to employ a non-flyer full time. And yes, these guys do this in bad weather and at night as well.
I'm not an expert on civilian flying but I do have many civilian friends in the commuters and a couple that have made it big- and most of them got their first 500-1000 teaching stalls in a 152, then another 1500 as a FO.
Sir, with respect, how many of your 4500 hours are turbine PIC? About 700 of my first 1000 are.
Many CFIs and MEI’s wash out of Navy flight school. I’m sure icing up in a Cessna is scary as heck- but many guys with all the civvy experience in the world just can’t think at jet speeds.
Add up the number of cycles a military jet guy flies. Flight time builds slow flying 1.1's teaching in Kingsville or meridian. It would be interesting to compare the number of cycles in a military jet guy's logbook to a high time civilian's. (Hence conversion factors).
One last thing- go to the majors portion of this website and see what all the old military guys have to say about getting on with the airlines- how the stress level and nature of the flying compares to their military experience, and how happy they are to be where they are now. I guess that is something we could all learn something from.
I have not intended to boast on my own experiences, like I said the guys out there right now flying off the boat night at night really earn their money, as do our Air Force, Marine, and Army brothers. Everything I listed is standard for a military guy my age. I certainly have not meant to disrespect or belittle the experiences of civilian aviators. Some of your stories of flying air ambulance don’t sound fun at all, and were certainly challenging.
However, I believe military pilots deal with all the challenges dangers present in civilian aviation and much more- at an earlier age, lower flight time, and with superior training. That being said, I respectfully maintain that military experience warrants a significant hours bias in airline hiring over civilian candidates.
English
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- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 3,374
This reminds me of my 737 type training. My sim partner was a fighter guy and couldn't fly his way out of a paper bag, at least in a 737 sim. I've never made so many altitude. heading and airspeed deviation callouts in my life. And steep turns? He completely lost control. First and only time I've seen red in a simulator and had to have the techs put it back up on hydraulics. I guess most fighter guys don't get much instrument practice? That was his excuse, anyway.Whidbey said:
I surely wouldn't want to be in the back of a 737 with a rudder PCU fail with him at the controls.
I think he is at SWA now.
And, some of my favorite captains (and family) are military, so I'm not bashing. I just disagree with Whidbey's observations.
rcbullock
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- Sep 3, 2002
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- 149
Nav Time
All I'm sayin' is, seems Nav time should count for SOMETHING. I mean, even if you just SAT behind the pilot and co and watched for 1500+ hours (I have at least that much nav time) you couldn't help but learn SOMETHING.
Plus working the FMS, doing the flight plan, cross checking fuel, monitoring the approach etc etc. is worth SOMETHING.
I think we can at least agree on that. What we can't agree on is how much it should count.
Heck, I'd be thrilled to get the FE up to 500 hr for an ATP deal.
I'd be happy with HALF that, say, 250 hrs towards an ATP.
I was going to get the Flight Navigator rating put on my civilian tickets but the FAA wouldn't even give me that. They said there was no military equivalency. And I did learn cel nav.
All I'm sayin' is, seems Nav time should count for SOMETHING. I mean, even if you just SAT behind the pilot and co and watched for 1500+ hours (I have at least that much nav time) you couldn't help but learn SOMETHING.
Plus working the FMS, doing the flight plan, cross checking fuel, monitoring the approach etc etc. is worth SOMETHING.
I think we can at least agree on that. What we can't agree on is how much it should count.
Heck, I'd be thrilled to get the FE up to 500 hr for an ATP deal.
I'd be happy with HALF that, say, 250 hrs towards an ATP.
I was going to get the Flight Navigator rating put on my civilian tickets but the FAA wouldn't even give me that. They said there was no military equivalency. And I did learn cel nav.
vetteracer
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Sir, with respect, how many of your 4500 hours are turbine PIC? About 700 of my first 1000 are.
Total Time 4554
ME- 2508
SE 1989
ME Turbine PIC 1160
CFI TIME 115
X Country 3831
Night 1909
PIC 4250
And I am 28 Years old.
Nice post and very informative. I understand that a lot is expected of military pilots during training. And further more are expected to do it in a short period of time.
How much of your time is solo, PIC without an instructor? Not a flame, just out of curiosity. How many hours a month/day do you fly? How long have you been in the military. Just trying to get a synopsis.
Mark
Total Time 4554
ME- 2508
SE 1989
ME Turbine PIC 1160
CFI TIME 115
X Country 3831
Night 1909
PIC 4250
And I am 28 Years old.
Nice post and very informative. I understand that a lot is expected of military pilots during training. And further more are expected to do it in a short period of time.
How much of your time is solo, PIC without an instructor? Not a flame, just out of curiosity. How many hours a month/day do you fly? How long have you been in the military. Just trying to get a synopsis.
Mark
vetteracer
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Quote
"This reminds me of my 737 type training. My sim partner was a fighter guy and couldn't fly his way out of a paper bag, at least in a 737 sim. I've never made so many altitude. heading and airspeed deviation callouts in my life. And steep turns? He completely lost control. First and only time I've seen red in a simulator and had to have the techs put it back up on hydraulics. I guess most fighter guys don't get much instrument practice? That was his excuse, anyway."
My initial training in the King Air was at Simuflite in Dallas. I was in a class of 8 and I was the only civ guy there. All the guys were Navy. Most were fighter guys moving over to the C-12. One guy left the class for some reason so they paired 3 of us up together. The 2 that I was with were great guys, but had some of the worst instrument skills I had ever seen. And these guys had been pilots for quite a while.
Neither had flown GA nor could not believe that I had 2500+ hours and that I had been flying around 900 a year. One guy had less the 2000 total over 15 years (I think). I attributed the lack of instrument skill to lack of repetition. Both were so far behind the airplane they needed extra sim time. But I bet they were excellent fighter pilots. If they put me in an F-18 sim, it would probably take me a while to get the hang of things.
I kept in touch with one guy for a few years afterwards as I was thinking about joining the Navy, and he was interested in working for our operation if he could not get on an airline. I take it he made it to an airline.
Back to my interest in the Navy. I drove down to Omaha and met with a recruiter. He was a pilot. I told him that I had some flight experience and he told me that my 200-300 hours (I had around 2500 then) of GA time was useless and that it would actually hinder me. And that if I wanted to be in the Navy that I should not mention my flight time at all because as he said it "Civilian time, anybody can do that"!
Mark
"This reminds me of my 737 type training. My sim partner was a fighter guy and couldn't fly his way out of a paper bag, at least in a 737 sim. I've never made so many altitude. heading and airspeed deviation callouts in my life. And steep turns? He completely lost control. First and only time I've seen red in a simulator and had to have the techs put it back up on hydraulics. I guess most fighter guys don't get much instrument practice? That was his excuse, anyway."
My initial training in the King Air was at Simuflite in Dallas. I was in a class of 8 and I was the only civ guy there. All the guys were Navy. Most were fighter guys moving over to the C-12. One guy left the class for some reason so they paired 3 of us up together. The 2 that I was with were great guys, but had some of the worst instrument skills I had ever seen. And these guys had been pilots for quite a while.
Neither had flown GA nor could not believe that I had 2500+ hours and that I had been flying around 900 a year. One guy had less the 2000 total over 15 years (I think). I attributed the lack of instrument skill to lack of repetition. Both were so far behind the airplane they needed extra sim time. But I bet they were excellent fighter pilots. If they put me in an F-18 sim, it would probably take me a while to get the hang of things.
I kept in touch with one guy for a few years afterwards as I was thinking about joining the Navy, and he was interested in working for our operation if he could not get on an airline. I take it he made it to an airline.
Back to my interest in the Navy. I drove down to Omaha and met with a recruiter. He was a pilot. I told him that I had some flight experience and he told me that my 200-300 hours (I had around 2500 then) of GA time was useless and that it would actually hinder me. And that if I wanted to be in the Navy that I should not mention my flight time at all because as he said it "Civilian time, anybody can do that"!
Mark
vetteracer
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Quote
"You said you had nobody helping you to make the right decisions. We'll often have people "helping," pressuring us to make the wrong ones, just as I'm sure you've had bosses do. It takes the same type of leadership for a young LT to stand up to pressure to do unsafe things that it does for a 10,000 hour captain to stand up to dispatch, etc. Military guys learn decision making young."
Yes, we both learn young. Most of the pressure to fly comes from myself.
A few stand out, but one in particular. Night, freezing rain, slick runways, low IFR. Flight pages out for a trauma, 5-year old boy caught in farm equipment. Needed to go to the Mayo clinic. I turned the flight down. Called the hospital 3 hours latter when the wether was better. The response I got, "patient has expired". I was 24 years old.
I am sure the same thing applies in the military when you cannot get to troops or to victims. So there are many similarities in Military and GA. More then we probably realize.
Now, on the other spectrum. There is the guy with 800 hours TT, and has never been IMC by himself gets the RJ job. So as always anything goes in this industry.
My point is that according to some of the previous posts I have no comprehension of having other peoples lives in my hands when making a go – no –go decision. Not that this is important to me or to inflate my ego, but it always seems that SOME Military pilots think that this GA stuff is for trained Monkeys.
Mark
"You said you had nobody helping you to make the right decisions. We'll often have people "helping," pressuring us to make the wrong ones, just as I'm sure you've had bosses do. It takes the same type of leadership for a young LT to stand up to pressure to do unsafe things that it does for a 10,000 hour captain to stand up to dispatch, etc. Military guys learn decision making young."
Yes, we both learn young. Most of the pressure to fly comes from myself.
A few stand out, but one in particular. Night, freezing rain, slick runways, low IFR. Flight pages out for a trauma, 5-year old boy caught in farm equipment. Needed to go to the Mayo clinic. I turned the flight down. Called the hospital 3 hours latter when the wether was better. The response I got, "patient has expired". I was 24 years old.
I am sure the same thing applies in the military when you cannot get to troops or to victims. So there are many similarities in Military and GA. More then we probably realize.
Now, on the other spectrum. There is the guy with 800 hours TT, and has never been IMC by himself gets the RJ job. So as always anything goes in this industry.
My point is that according to some of the previous posts I have no comprehension of having other peoples lives in my hands when making a go – no –go decision. Not that this is important to me or to inflate my ego, but it always seems that SOME Military pilots think that this GA stuff is for trained Monkeys.
Mark
HueyPilot
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- 207
Time breakdown
Vett...
I'm about 31, not much older than you. If you're curious as to a typical military pilot's time breakdown, here's mine:
Army flight time (flew for them for about 2 1/2 years)
Helo turbine total: ~350
Dual: ~130
SIC (2nd in Command): ~220
Air Force flight time (been flying with them for 4 years now)
Total FW: ~1300
ME Turbine: ~1200
ME Turbine PIC: ~600
ME Turbine Instructor: ~100
SEL: ~100
Dual (all types): ~220
Ratings to date, with nearly 1,700 hours: Commercial MEL/Helo, Inst. Airplane/Helo, Private SEL, LRJET type
Locations flown to as LJ35 PIC/Instructor: Greenland (Sondrestromfjord), Iceland (Keflavik), Qatar, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Oman, Bahrain, Alaska, and nearly everywhere in the continental US.
Here's another insight into military experiences: I had about 500 hours in the Learjet, with about 800 hours airplane total time. I had about 30 hours PIC in the airplane, and after one orientation flight, I was flying PIC in a war zone, throughout the middle east, dealing with controllers that spoke poor english, and flying tactical approaches into airfields in the middle of the desert with low vis due to dust.
Vett...
I'm about 31, not much older than you. If you're curious as to a typical military pilot's time breakdown, here's mine:
Army flight time (flew for them for about 2 1/2 years)
Helo turbine total: ~350
Dual: ~130
SIC (2nd in Command): ~220
Air Force flight time (been flying with them for 4 years now)
Total FW: ~1300
ME Turbine: ~1200
ME Turbine PIC: ~600
ME Turbine Instructor: ~100
SEL: ~100
Dual (all types): ~220
Ratings to date, with nearly 1,700 hours: Commercial MEL/Helo, Inst. Airplane/Helo, Private SEL, LRJET type
Locations flown to as LJ35 PIC/Instructor: Greenland (Sondrestromfjord), Iceland (Keflavik), Qatar, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Oman, Bahrain, Alaska, and nearly everywhere in the continental US.
Here's another insight into military experiences: I had about 500 hours in the Learjet, with about 800 hours airplane total time. I had about 30 hours PIC in the airplane, and after one orientation flight, I was flying PIC in a war zone, throughout the middle east, dealing with controllers that spoke poor english, and flying tactical approaches into airfields in the middle of the desert with low vis due to dust.
HueyPilot
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 207
More stuff
Speaking of eye-opening experiences, there are several that I won't forget.
Like landing at KBGR with the weather down to mins, an icy runway, and crosswinds near the max for the runway condition.
Or when I landed at Goose Bay in Canada (CYYR), crosswinds were 25 knot component, but the winds were gusting 40-45 knots. Could have diverted to Gander, but the conditions were likely to be the same there and I would only have enough gas to get it on the ground, no other divert options. In the flare, the airplane caught a gust, banked about 20 degrees left wing down, right as I was about to shove the throttles up for a go around, it settled into a wing level attitude, and I just let it land. After we shut down, I had to lean into the wind to make it to the FBO door.
I had to fly into Telluride once, and if you didn't do your homework, you would land too heavy to take off later. You're groundspeeds are higher at 9,200' PA, and that makes landing on a 6700' runway interesting. That plus the 1,500' cliffs surrounding the airport make for interesting vertical turbulence on final and a pretty astounding visual illusion as well. 14,000' high mountains on the other end pretty much mean go arounds are interesting, if not dangerous.
There are a few more I could go into, but it's all about the same. Low ceilings, gusty winds, you name it. Basically, though, the idea that military pilots get their hands held is nonsense. Part 121 pilots are supported 10 times better than we are. We fly into the same civilian airports you do, plus the military fields. Most military fields don't have a special tower to check your landing gear, only fighter and training bases. And even at that, if you're not a fighter or trainer, you're handled by the regular tower anyways.
Speaking of eye-opening experiences, there are several that I won't forget.
Like landing at KBGR with the weather down to mins, an icy runway, and crosswinds near the max for the runway condition.
Or when I landed at Goose Bay in Canada (CYYR), crosswinds were 25 knot component, but the winds were gusting 40-45 knots. Could have diverted to Gander, but the conditions were likely to be the same there and I would only have enough gas to get it on the ground, no other divert options. In the flare, the airplane caught a gust, banked about 20 degrees left wing down, right as I was about to shove the throttles up for a go around, it settled into a wing level attitude, and I just let it land. After we shut down, I had to lean into the wind to make it to the FBO door.
I had to fly into Telluride once, and if you didn't do your homework, you would land too heavy to take off later. You're groundspeeds are higher at 9,200' PA, and that makes landing on a 6700' runway interesting. That plus the 1,500' cliffs surrounding the airport make for interesting vertical turbulence on final and a pretty astounding visual illusion as well. 14,000' high mountains on the other end pretty much mean go arounds are interesting, if not dangerous.
There are a few more I could go into, but it's all about the same. Low ceilings, gusty winds, you name it. Basically, though, the idea that military pilots get their hands held is nonsense. Part 121 pilots are supported 10 times better than we are. We fly into the same civilian airports you do, plus the military fields. Most military fields don't have a special tower to check your landing gear, only fighter and training bases. And even at that, if you're not a fighter or trainer, you're handled by the regular tower anyways.
Whidbey
Member
- Joined
- May 3, 2004
- Posts
- 21
Great Posts.
English,
I'd never claim that there weren't guys that are goofs flying in the military... in fact, some of them end up with a lot of rank on their shoulder!
I didn't mean I'd ONLY want a fighter guy there, just that I wouldn't mind it. Maybe I should have been more clear. Hopefully after a little more time learning how to fly something big your sim partner did better.
Vette,
Great posts. There are countless guys including me that would give their left one to be 28 with a grand of turbine pic and 4500 total- that's pretty extraordinary! Are you an Embry Riddle guy, have you got your degree? I know I'm not qualified to make the call but It sounds like you could be somewhere flying big jets.
I listen in awe at some of the things my civilian buddies tell me, and I'd never say "that's civilian time, anybody can do that." That's just ridiculous. There are guys everywhere in life that need to say those sort of things to people to feel good about themselves. (Is this the Dr. Phil website or the flying one...) I have a lot of guys on the civilian side that I consider mentors to me in the flying game, that I know have a wealth of knowledge and experience that is of value to any young pilot. With your experience I guarantee you could teach me a thing or three out of the FAR/AIM. It is worthy of note that military guys have numerous tactical manuals and pubs that make the FAR/AIM look like light reading. It's no excuse, but it can lead to dropping knowledge that the civilian guys seem to stay better focused on.
I wish I had a better hack on my exact flight time breakdowns like you do (hey, they own my a$$ for 4 or 5 more years anyways, who cares?) I'm 28 as well. I guess about half, or a bit more than that (and this is a W.A.G.) of my three hundred hours in flight school were solo. When you get to the Prowler RAG you fly one hop on the right of another pilot (the only set of controls is on the left). Then like 6 hops with a pilot on your right, then you start flying with NFO's. Those guys have mission related quals (ie mission commander) but any time you are in the left seat you are the AC and of course the only pilot in the jet.
Get this- between me getting my wings and getting back behind the stick in a Prowler it was a full year of ground school- not a single flight. Not flight related stuff but mission stuff mostly in the ground school. Totally a morale killer! Here's another bummer- the way a Navy guy's commitment timing works, we usually get stuck doing some sort of non flying job on a ship for our last year or two if we get out at our first chance. It kills your skills and your currency for airline interviews if you don't want to stay military.
Any military bubba would kill to get 900 a year. With your flying experience you would be accelerated through the initial 6 months of flight training and be expected to be a top performer. This is standard practice in the VT's. Flight time prior to military experience, as I can attest, is a great advantage in about the first 60-100 hours of flying. After that, as the task load increases, students tend to even out.
I have lots of military buddies who have extensive experience before joining, I had my private. Another buddy has about 5000, has built several airplanes, and has a great deal of experience on the outside. He agrees with the conclusion in my previous post, as I suspect most folks who have flown on both sides would... but-
I think a military guy with more civvy experience (or someone now in the majors) would be more qualified to address this question than I am. Someone who has a load of experience on both sides.
Great posts. You always learn something on flightinfo.
English,
I'd never claim that there weren't guys that are goofs flying in the military... in fact, some of them end up with a lot of rank on their shoulder!
I didn't mean I'd ONLY want a fighter guy there, just that I wouldn't mind it. Maybe I should have been more clear. Hopefully after a little more time learning how to fly something big your sim partner did better.
Vette,
Great posts. There are countless guys including me that would give their left one to be 28 with a grand of turbine pic and 4500 total- that's pretty extraordinary! Are you an Embry Riddle guy, have you got your degree? I know I'm not qualified to make the call but It sounds like you could be somewhere flying big jets.
I listen in awe at some of the things my civilian buddies tell me, and I'd never say "that's civilian time, anybody can do that." That's just ridiculous. There are guys everywhere in life that need to say those sort of things to people to feel good about themselves. (Is this the Dr. Phil website or the flying one...) I have a lot of guys on the civilian side that I consider mentors to me in the flying game, that I know have a wealth of knowledge and experience that is of value to any young pilot. With your experience I guarantee you could teach me a thing or three out of the FAR/AIM. It is worthy of note that military guys have numerous tactical manuals and pubs that make the FAR/AIM look like light reading. It's no excuse, but it can lead to dropping knowledge that the civilian guys seem to stay better focused on.
I wish I had a better hack on my exact flight time breakdowns like you do (hey, they own my a$$ for 4 or 5 more years anyways, who cares?) I'm 28 as well. I guess about half, or a bit more than that (and this is a W.A.G.) of my three hundred hours in flight school were solo. When you get to the Prowler RAG you fly one hop on the right of another pilot (the only set of controls is on the left). Then like 6 hops with a pilot on your right, then you start flying with NFO's. Those guys have mission related quals (ie mission commander) but any time you are in the left seat you are the AC and of course the only pilot in the jet.
Get this- between me getting my wings and getting back behind the stick in a Prowler it was a full year of ground school- not a single flight. Not flight related stuff but mission stuff mostly in the ground school. Totally a morale killer! Here's another bummer- the way a Navy guy's commitment timing works, we usually get stuck doing some sort of non flying job on a ship for our last year or two if we get out at our first chance. It kills your skills and your currency for airline interviews if you don't want to stay military.
Any military bubba would kill to get 900 a year. With your flying experience you would be accelerated through the initial 6 months of flight training and be expected to be a top performer. This is standard practice in the VT's. Flight time prior to military experience, as I can attest, is a great advantage in about the first 60-100 hours of flying. After that, as the task load increases, students tend to even out.
I have lots of military buddies who have extensive experience before joining, I had my private. Another buddy has about 5000, has built several airplanes, and has a great deal of experience on the outside. He agrees with the conclusion in my previous post, as I suspect most folks who have flown on both sides would... but-
I think a military guy with more civvy experience (or someone now in the majors) would be more qualified to address this question than I am. Someone who has a load of experience on both sides.
Great posts. You always learn something on flightinfo.
vetteracer
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 29, 2004
- Posts
- 361
Great Post WhidBey, very informative.
Are you an Embry Riddle guy, have you got your degree? I know I'm not qualified to make the call but It sounds like you could be somewhere flying big jets.
No, not a riddle dude, I went to SDSU (South Dakota State University) BS- Aviation Education. I started flying when I was 14, So half my life ago, (Darn I just noticed that). As far as the big jets, it is anybody’s guess. No 121 time and no JET PIC time so I guess I have one arm and one leg.
It is worthy of note that military guys have numerous tactical manuals and pubs that make the FAR/AIM look like light reading. It's no excuse, but it can lead to dropping knowledge that the civilian guys seem to stay better focused on.
I would believe that. I have a great friend that is a 16 driver full time for the Guard. He flew for ACA for a few years before the guard gig and has great perspective for both. I asked many of these questions to him and his basic answer is they are very different types of flying. What is expected of you in the military as far as academics are incredible. He said he did more work training in the 16 then he did in 4 years of college.
Mark
Are you an Embry Riddle guy, have you got your degree? I know I'm not qualified to make the call but It sounds like you could be somewhere flying big jets.
No, not a riddle dude, I went to SDSU (South Dakota State University) BS- Aviation Education. I started flying when I was 14, So half my life ago, (Darn I just noticed that). As far as the big jets, it is anybody’s guess. No 121 time and no JET PIC time so I guess I have one arm and one leg.
It is worthy of note that military guys have numerous tactical manuals and pubs that make the FAR/AIM look like light reading. It's no excuse, but it can lead to dropping knowledge that the civilian guys seem to stay better focused on.
I would believe that. I have a great friend that is a 16 driver full time for the Guard. He flew for ACA for a few years before the guard gig and has great perspective for both. I asked many of these questions to him and his basic answer is they are very different types of flying. What is expected of you in the military as far as academics are incredible. He said he did more work training in the 16 then he did in 4 years of college.
Mark
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