military to airline

[English]

If I’m in the back of a 737 that has a rudder PCU fail, I'd like a fighter guy at the controls… even if he did scare off all the chicks at the bar.

This reminds me of my 737 type training. My sim partner was a fighter guy and couldn't fly his way out of a paper bag, at least in a 737 sim. I've never made so many altitude. heading and airspeed deviation callouts in my life. And steep turns? He completely lost control. First and only time I've seen red in a simulator and had to have the techs put it back up on hydraulics. I guess most fighter guys don't get much instrument practice? That was his excuse, anyway.

I surely wouldn't want to be in the back of a 737 with a rudder PCU fail with him at the controls.

I think he is at SWA now.

And, some of my favorite captains (and family) are military, so I'm not bashing. I just disagree with Whidbey's observations.

 

[rcbullock]

Nav Time

All I'm sayin' is, seems Nav time should count for SOMETHING. I mean, even if you just SAT behind the pilot and co and watched for 1500+ hours (I have at least that much nav time) you couldn't help but learn SOMETHING.

Plus working the FMS, doing the flight plan, cross checking fuel, monitoring the approach etc etc. is worth SOMETHING.

I think we can at least agree on that. What we can't agree on is how much it should count.

Heck, I'd be thrilled to get the FE up to 500 hr for an ATP deal.

I'd be happy with HALF that, say, 250 hrs towards an ATP.

I was going to get the Flight Navigator rating put on my civilian tickets but the FAA wouldn't even give me that. They said there was no military equivalency. And I did learn cel nav.

 

[vetteracer]

Sir, with respect, how many of your 4500 hours are turbine PIC? About 700 of my first 1000 are.



Total Time 4554

ME- 2508

SE 1989

ME Turbine PIC 1160

CFI TIME 115

X Country 3831

Night 1909

PIC 4250

And I am 28 Years old.



Nice post and very informative. I understand that a lot is expected of military pilots during training. And further more are expected to do it in a short period of time.

How much of your time is solo, PIC without an instructor? Not a flame, just out of curiosity. How many hours a month/day do you fly? How long have you been in the military. Just trying to get a synopsis.

Mark

 

[vetteracer]

Quote

"This reminds me of my 737 type training. My sim partner was a fighter guy and couldn't fly his way out of a paper bag, at least in a 737 sim. I've never made so many altitude. heading and airspeed deviation callouts in my life. And steep turns? He completely lost control. First and only time I've seen red in a simulator and had to have the techs put it back up on hydraulics. I guess most fighter guys don't get much instrument practice? That was his excuse, anyway."

My initial training in the King Air was at Simuflite in Dallas. I was in a class of 8 and I was the only civ guy there. All the guys were Navy. Most were fighter guys moving over to the C-12. One guy left the class for some reason so they paired 3 of us up together. The 2 that I was with were great guys, but had some of the worst instrument skills I had ever seen. And these guys had been pilots for quite a while.

Neither had flown GA nor could not believe that I had 2500+ hours and that I had been flying around 900 a year. One guy had less the 2000 total over 15 years (I think). I attributed the lack of instrument skill to lack of repetition. Both were so far behind the airplane they needed extra sim time. But I bet they were excellent fighter pilots. If they put me in an F-18 sim, it would probably take me a while to get the hang of things.

I kept in touch with one guy for a few years afterwards as I was thinking about joining the Navy, and he was interested in working for our operation if he could not get on an airline. I take it he made it to an airline.

Back to my interest in the Navy. I drove down to Omaha and met with a recruiter. He was a pilot. I told him that I had some flight experience and he told me that my 200-300 hours (I had around 2500 then) of GA time was useless and that it would actually hinder me. And that if I wanted to be in the Navy that I should not mention my flight time at all because as he said it "Civilian time, anybody can do that"!

Mark

 

[vetteracer]

Quote

"You said you had nobody helping you to make the right decisions. We'll often have people "helping," pressuring us to make the wrong ones, just as I'm sure you've had bosses do. It takes the same type of leadership for a young LT to stand up to pressure to do unsafe things that it does for a 10,000 hour captain to stand up to dispatch, etc. Military guys learn decision making young."



Yes, we both learn young. Most of the pressure to fly comes from myself.

A few stand out, but one in particular. Night, freezing rain, slick runways, low IFR. Flight pages out for a trauma, 5-year old boy caught in farm equipment. Needed to go to the Mayo clinic. I turned the flight down. Called the hospital 3 hours latter when the wether was better. The response I got, "patient has expired". I was 24 years old.

I am sure the same thing applies in the military when you cannot get to troops or to victims. So there are many similarities in Military and GA. More then we probably realize.

Now, on the other spectrum. There is the guy with 800 hours TT, and has never been IMC by himself gets the RJ job. So as always anything goes in this industry.

My point is that according to some of the previous posts I have no comprehension of having other peoples lives in my hands when making a go – no –go decision. Not that this is important to me or to inflate my ego, but it always seems that SOME Military pilots think that this GA stuff is for trained Monkeys.

Mark

 

[HueyPilot]

Time breakdown

Vett...

I'm about 31, not much older than you. If you're curious as to a typical military pilot's time breakdown, here's mine:

Army flight time (flew for them for about 2 1/2 years)

Helo turbine total: ~350
Dual: ~130
SIC (2nd in Command): ~220

Air Force flight time (been flying with them for 4 years now)

Total FW: ~1300
ME Turbine: ~1200
ME Turbine PIC: ~600
ME Turbine Instructor: ~100
SEL: ~100
Dual (all types): ~220

Ratings to date, with nearly 1,700 hours: Commercial MEL/Helo, Inst. Airplane/Helo, Private SEL, LRJET type

Locations flown to as LJ35 PIC/Instructor: Greenland (Sondrestromfjord), Iceland (Keflavik), Qatar, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Oman, Bahrain, Alaska, and nearly everywhere in the continental US.

Here's another insight into military experiences: I had about 500 hours in the Learjet, with about 800 hours airplane total time. I had about 30 hours PIC in the airplane, and after one orientation flight, I was flying PIC in a war zone, throughout the middle east, dealing with controllers that spoke poor english, and flying tactical approaches into airfields in the middle of the desert with low vis due to dust.

 

[HueyPilot]

More stuff

Speaking of eye-opening experiences, there are several that I won't forget.

Like landing at KBGR with the weather down to mins, an icy runway, and crosswinds near the max for the runway condition.

Or when I landed at Goose Bay in Canada (CYYR), crosswinds were 25 knot component, but the winds were gusting 40-45 knots. Could have diverted to Gander, but the conditions were likely to be the same there and I would only have enough gas to get it on the ground, no other divert options. In the flare, the airplane caught a gust, banked about 20 degrees left wing down, right as I was about to shove the throttles up for a go around, it settled into a wing level attitude, and I just let it land. After we shut down, I had to lean into the wind to make it to the FBO door.

I had to fly into Telluride once, and if you didn't do your homework, you would land too heavy to take off later. You're groundspeeds are higher at 9,200' PA, and that makes landing on a 6700' runway interesting. That plus the 1,500' cliffs surrounding the airport make for interesting vertical turbulence on final and a pretty astounding visual illusion as well. 14,000' high mountains on the other end pretty much mean go arounds are interesting, if not dangerous.

There are a few more I could go into, but it's all about the same. Low ceilings, gusty winds, you name it. Basically, though, the idea that military pilots get their hands held is nonsense. Part 121 pilots are supported 10 times better than we are. We fly into the same civilian airports you do, plus the military fields. Most military fields don't have a special tower to check your landing gear, only fighter and training bases. And even at that, if you're not a fighter or trainer, you're handled by the regular tower anyways.

 

[Whidbey]

Great Posts.

English,

I'd never claim that there weren't guys that are goofs flying in the military... in fact, some of them end up with a lot of rank on their shoulder!

I didn't mean I'd ONLY want a fighter guy there, just that I wouldn't mind it. Maybe I should have been more clear. Hopefully after a little more time learning how to fly something big your sim partner did better.


Vette,

Great posts. There are countless guys including me that would give their left one to be 28 with a grand of turbine pic and 4500 total- that's pretty extraordinary! Are you an Embry Riddle guy, have you got your degree? I know I'm not qualified to make the call but It sounds like you could be somewhere flying big jets.

I listen in awe at some of the things my civilian buddies tell me, and I'd never say "that's civilian time, anybody can do that." That's just ridiculous. There are guys everywhere in life that need to say those sort of things to people to feel good about themselves. (Is this the Dr. Phil website or the flying one...) I have a lot of guys on the civilian side that I consider mentors to me in the flying game, that I know have a wealth of knowledge and experience that is of value to any young pilot. With your experience I guarantee you could teach me a thing or three out of the FAR/AIM. It is worthy of note that military guys have numerous tactical manuals and pubs that make the FAR/AIM look like light reading. It's no excuse, but it can lead to dropping knowledge that the civilian guys seem to stay better focused on.

I wish I had a better hack on my exact flight time breakdowns like you do (hey, they own my a$$ for 4 or 5 more years anyways, who cares?) I'm 28 as well. I guess about half, or a bit more than that (and this is a W.A.G.) of my three hundred hours in flight school were solo. When you get to the Prowler RAG you fly one hop on the right of another pilot (the only set of controls is on the left). Then like 6 hops with a pilot on your right, then you start flying with NFO's. Those guys have mission related quals (ie mission commander) but any time you are in the left seat you are the AC and of course the only pilot in the jet.

Get this- between me getting my wings and getting back behind the stick in a Prowler it was a full year of ground school- not a single flight. Not flight related stuff but mission stuff mostly in the ground school. Totally a morale killer! Here's another bummer- the way a Navy guy's commitment timing works, we usually get stuck doing some sort of non flying job on a ship for our last year or two if we get out at our first chance. It kills your skills and your currency for airline interviews if you don't want to stay military.

Any military bubba would kill to get 900 a year. With your flying experience you would be accelerated through the initial 6 months of flight training and be expected to be a top performer. This is standard practice in the VT's. Flight time prior to military experience, as I can attest, is a great advantage in about the first 60-100 hours of flying. After that, as the task load increases, students tend to even out.

I have lots of military buddies who have extensive experience before joining, I had my private. Another buddy has about 5000, has built several airplanes, and has a great deal of experience on the outside. He agrees with the conclusion in my previous post, as I suspect most folks who have flown on both sides would... but-

I think a military guy with more civvy experience (or someone now in the majors) would be more qualified to address this question than I am. Someone who has a load of experience on both sides.

Great posts. You always learn something on flightinfo.

 

[vetteracer]

Great Post WhidBey, very informative.

Are you an Embry Riddle guy, have you got your degree? I know I'm not qualified to make the call but It sounds like you could be somewhere flying big jets.

No, not a riddle dude, I went to SDSU (South Dakota State University) BS- Aviation Education. I started flying when I was 14, So half my life ago, (Darn I just noticed that). As far as the big jets, it is anybody’s guess. No 121 time and no JET PIC time so I guess I have one arm and one leg.


It is worthy of note that military guys have numerous tactical manuals and pubs that make the FAR/AIM look like light reading. It's no excuse, but it can lead to dropping knowledge that the civilian guys seem to stay better focused on.

I would believe that. I have a great friend that is a 16 driver full time for the Guard. He flew for ACA for a few years before the guard gig and has great perspective for both. I asked many of these questions to him and his basic answer is they are very different types of flying. What is expected of you in the military as far as academics are incredible. He said he did more work training in the 16 then he did in 4 years of college.

Mark

 

[mmase7]

Military Minimums

We do!

We do that, plus fly a jet designed for civil use (Learjet 35) into Iraqi airfields, performing tactical approaches (3000 fpm spiral-down patterns from 15,000 feet to avoid getting hit by ground fire), and operate in an environment where squawking the wrong codes could get you shot down.

Naval Aviators (multi-piloted aircraft) can shoot approaches down to 0/0 as well as Special Instrument card holders can take off 0/0...