military to airline

[BrianNYC]

When transitioning from the military to the airlines, if you were not the pilot of a fixed wing aircraft, what would look better when trying to get an airline job? Being a helo pilot or being a navigator? Is there a specfic type of navigator that would be prefered over another (heavy over fighter)? Also, comming from the military as a helo pilot or navigator, you could only get a job at a regional airline correct?

 

[46Driver]

Regional airlines (some) will count helo time. Nobody counts navigator time that I know of.

 

[JimNtexas]

When transitioning from the military to the airlines, if you were not the pilot of a fixed wing aircraft, what would look better when trying to get an airline job? Being a helo pilot or being a navigator? Is there a specfic type of navigator that would be prefered over another (heavy over fighter)? Also, comming from the military as a helo pilot or navigator, you could only get a job at a regional airline correct?

Navigator time is NOT pilot time, and navigator experience does not qualify a person to be a pilot at any level.

 

[mudkow60]

Wow! Harsh on the 'FO's!

I heard the S-3 guys get some stick time.

 

[JimNtexas]

Wow! Harsh on the 'FO's!

I heard the S-3 guys get some stick time.

I got tons of stick time in F-4s and F-111s. If one has a multiengine rating one can even log it as the famous "sole manipulator" time (given that there is no type rating for F-4s and F-111s).

I certainly think that if the world was fair that airlines and the FAA would recognize my navigator flying time. Certainly an airline would get better pilots if it counted WSO time towards at least some of their hiring minimums.

Unfortunately "fair" is what you pay to get on the bus. In the world in which we actually live nav time is of little value for any civilian purpose.

 

[Dragon's Fire]

S-3 Viking

It is true that S-3B NFOs can log SIC if they have their multiengine rating, they are NATOPs qualifed, and they are in the front right seat. The FAA went around and around with this one in San Diego. There are 2 sets of controls in the S-3, but the Navy decided years ago to put an NFO over there to save money. For all intensive purposes, they do the same thing as a copilot in a 737 does. No PIC time though. I know several S-3 NFOs that fly with the commuters. I know one that is a furloughed Delta guy, that is getting recalled in the fall. Too bad the good old Viking is going away...

 

[vetteracer]

Quote

Certainly an airline would get better pilots if it counted WSO time towards at least some of their hiring minimums.


In what regards? Better navigation abilities?

I think just the opposite as you, I think the military pilots get the breaks. I have 4000+ hours and it is looked at the same as a military pilot with 1500 hours. Is it better time??? I have no one to help me make go no go decisions, no one to sit at the end of the runway and watch to make sure my landing gear is down. No weather specialist to interpret weather for me. Most of my time is single pilot, day not IFR with no autopilot. How many military pilots shoot approaches with only a visibility requirement of 1800 RVR and indefinite ceilings. We have a retired Air Force guy that flies with us and he cannot believe half the stuff we do. The strips we go in and out of, circling approaches, dealing with ice, thunderstorms etc.

Mark

 

[JimNtexas]

Quote

In what regards? Better navigation abilities?

I think just the opposite as you, I think the military pilots get the breaks. I have 4000+ hours and it is looked at the same as a military pilot with 1500 hours. Is it better time??? I have no one to help me make go no go decisions, no one to sit at the end of the runway and watch to make sure my landing gear is down. No weather specialist to interpret weather for me.

Cry me a river.

Go fly an 80,000lb airplane at 400 feet agl at 480-520 knots in mountains at night, then come back and talk to me about "navigation ability". You have no clue what your're talking about.

I told the guy that his nav time counted for nothing. That's the way it is, and we former navs have to accept it. I'd say that a civil trained pilot X number of piston hours and a thousand hours of F-111right seat time would be ever so slightly more qualified to fly a heavy fast swept wing jet aircraft than an identical civil-trained pilot with no jet time. I'd go so far as to say that WSO time is more like pilot time than sitting sideways running the air conditioners. But what do I know? I'm just a nav. That's my opinion. I know nobody agrees with me, and I told the original questioner the hard truth that nav time is of no value in the civilian world.

Even though I was only a navigator I am at least man enough not to engage in one of these poor-me pity parties that so many civilian pilots seem to enjoy so much.

 

[vetteracer]

I re-read my post and see how it came of one sided, that is not what I intended. I wrote off hand and did not articulate my point well.

Let me re-elaborate. I think neither Civ nor Mil has an appreciation for what the other does. We can go back and forth on each other’s experiences and still have no end.

Flying around the mountains at 400 AGL has no application to Airlines. From my experience employers look for PIC time. As this is the only way to gauge how long a person has been making decisions and being responsible for the aircraft. As well as instrument skills and a concrete knowledge of instrument flying. Many airline applications ask for PIC time in 135 or 121. So no 91 time or instruction. Is it fair?

I was not complaining about the situation, just making an observation. I think airlines and many employers prefer military pilots vs. civilian pilots because they know what they are getting.

I am not crying a pity party for myself; I understand the gig and just make my may towards my goal as the rules change. I just get the feeling from some of these posts and from many of the Mil pilots that I have run across that there experience out weights civ experience.

If you are referring to FE time being counted and not NAV time, that does not seem to be an equal standard.

I take it you are an ex-NAV guy and now flying in the civ world. So you will have the experience of both sides and that will put you ahead of an identical applicant with no Mil time, even if you cannot add the time to your app.

Mark

 

[Jim]

I re-read my post and see how it came of one sided, that is not what I intended. I wrote off hand and did not articulate my point well.

Let me re-elaborate. I think neither Civ nor Mil has an appreciation for what the other does. We can go back and forth on each other’s experiences and still have no end.

Flying around the mountains at 400 AGL has no application to Airlines. From my experience employers look for PIC time. As this is the only way to gauge how long a person has been making decisions and being responsible for the aircraft. As well as instrument skills and a concrete knowledge of instrument flying. Many airline applications ask for PIC time in 135 or 121. So no 91 time or instruction. Is it fair?

I was not complaining about the situation, just making an observation. I think airlines and many employers prefer military pilots vs. civilian pilots because they know what they are getting.

I am not crying a pity party for myself; I understand the gig and just make my may towards my goal as the rules change. I just get the feeling from some of these posts and from many of the Mil pilots that I have run across that there experience out weights civ experience.

If you are referring to FE time being counted and not NAV time, that does not seem to be an equal standard.

I take it you are an ex-NAV guy and now flying in the civ world. So you will have the experience of both sides and that will put you ahead of an identical applicant with no Mil time, even if you cannot add the time to your app.

Mark

Actually I think I have a pretty good appreciation as I have done both. My military time was as a NFO ("Navy Nav") and my pilot time is all civilian. Plus I've done the FE thing too.

There is no question that my NFO time made me a better pilot. My NFO time did far more for my pilot skills than my FE time too. NFO/Navs are "big picture" guys. Seeing the big picture is what keeps NFOs/Navs alive when their pilots are zeroed in on the task at hand and forget about the mountain, etc. As part of the big picture, NFOs/Navs are monitoring the approaches, monitoring the fuel, taking care of the radios - all the duties of a non-flying pilot. They know the aircraft systems and capabilities as well as the pilots do. The only thing lacking is the monkey skills of moving the stick and power levers. All these things become second nature and when a NFO/Nav moves into a pilot seat, they are already acquired skills and he can concentrate on getting the stick and power lever part right.

Further, when an NFO/Nav goes to the pilot seat, he take this "big picture" view with him and therefore find making "Captain decisions" easy. Decision making is one of the weakest areas for new pilots and newly upgraded Captains. For the former NFO/Nav, it's a long acquired skill and not a problem.

As far as military pilots go, I was a squadron training officer, worked for the Training Wing in Pensacola and ran a training facility with P-3 and H-60 simulators. I have been deeply involved in both military pilot and NFO/Nav training. On the civilian side, I attended and taught at both part 61 and 141 pilot training schools. I have also completed one part 135, two part 142 and three part 121 training courses. Military pilots (and NFOs/Navs) get their initial edge in that their training is at least the caliber/standard of part 121 civilian training from day one. Civilian training is not. Further, the military pilots (especially the single seat guys) are also taught to maintain the "big picture" from day one. This is necessary because besides being a pilot, they have to be a tactician and maybe an element/flight/strike leader. Multitasking is an everyday part of flying to an extent a civilian pilot does not see until he is a Captain.

Civilian training is fine for airline pilot going from point A to B. Military training gives you that skill plus more. Further, a military pilot has already shown he has what it takes to pass that first 121 training course. With a civilian pilot, an employer is less sure. That is why an employer will take a chance on a military pilot with lower times than a civilian pilot. And yes it was just as frustrating for me as it is for you - like JimNTexas, my NFO time is meaningless to the civilian world and I had to meet the higher pilot times.

As far as the flying around at 400AGL and only counting 135/121 PIC time comments, this too relates the "big picture" thing. Airlines hire Captains, not First Officers. Not killing yourself while flying at 400AGL, completing a complicated mission, shooting an instrument approach to minimums (with no autopilot/flight director and while flying a TACAN needle- much harder than an ILS, more like an NDB) while being physically and mentally exhausted (from pulling 6 g's and leading the strike) shows you can prioritize and maintain the "big picture". In other words, you can be a Captain. The only thing an employer has to gauge a civilian pilot on is his 135/121 PIC time. (Here again, the NFO/Nav does this sort of stuff too - only in the equivalent of non-flying pilot role. But Captains have to be good NFPs too.)

The FAA will allow you to count some FE time towards an ATP. I feel they should allow NFO/Nav time in a similar manner. It is better than FE time. In the mid-1980s, a couple of FAA inspectors out of San Francisco felt the same way and worked with the Navy at Moffet Field to try and get this approved. Unfortunately, FAA legal equated military NFO/Nav time to civilian Flight Navigator time and shot it down. Other than the names being similar, they are as different as night and day.

Bottom-line. It's not that the military pilots are better at flying airliners than civilian pilots; it's that employers have more data points to use when judging their flying skills and potential to be good Captains. Like you said, "they know what they are getting." Like JimNTexas, I believe NFO/Nav time should be allowed in some fashion. It too allows an employer to "know what he is getting". But it will never happen because there is no civilian counterpart to the NFO/Nav and employers will never become educated on what we do.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[gear_guy]

www.aptap.org


Maybe this will help you

 

[MarineKC130]

Are you serious?

When was the last time you had to be concerned not only with flying from point a to point b, but also trying to avoid people who want to kill you; integrating into a larger scheme of maneuver; coordinating with multiple ATC / AWACS agencies as well as ground units at the same time; flying a high-performance aircraft that has to do some feat (drop bombs, drop cargo, employ sensors, etc) other than solely aviating?

When was the last time that you had to temper your go-no go decisions with the fact that other people's lives may depend on you going?

When is the last time you had to fly almost every night for months on end, while trying to get sleep during the day in a tent in 130 degree heat?

When was the last time that you had to operate your aircraft late at night low in some of the most rugged mountains in the world, trying to peer through the suspended dust with night vision goggles, snaking your way through valleys and over ridges, then slowing down from 250KIAS to approach speed in a matter of a few miles at 500', hitting glideslope 1 minute out from touchdown on a 4500' dirt strip at 4500' elevation and 35 degrees celsius, knowing that all your procedures have to be perfect in order to avoid running off the end of the runway into a hill 1000' beyond and igniting your 130,000 lb aircraft that is full of fuel?

While there are wheels watches and LSOs to watch out for military pilots, these safeguards are usually only for training or on aircraft carriers (when's the last time you tried to land your plane on the roof of a building that was pitching, rolling, and moving away from you at 30 knots). Squadrons do have operations sections that work on planning, but that is usually because squadrons fly complex missions that require integration of multiple aircraft into one plan. Every military aircraft commander is responsible for the basic aviation planning you do (performance calcs, preflight planning of departure, route and approach, weather, NOTAMS, etc) in addition to much more in depth planning having to do with the tactical picture.

You have no idea what we do, so keep your mouth shut. Don't even try to shoot back, because I'm in a very hot, unfriendly place and don't have a lot of patience anymore.

 

[vetteracer]

QUOTE


"When was the last time that you had to temper your go-no go decisions with the fact that other People’s lives may depend on you going?"

EVERY DAY!!!!! I am an Air Ambulance pilot, every time I make a go no go decision someone either lives or dies. I have saved over 1000 lives. And on some days, well, we can’t help.

When is the last time you had to fly almost every night for months on end, while trying to get sleep during the day in a tent in 130 degree heat?

We work some pretty rough schedules, day night, VFR-IFR rain, thunderstorms, ¼ mile vis, rain, freezing rain etc.

"When was the last time that you had to operate your aircraft late at night low in some of the most rugged mountains in the world, trying to peer through the suspended dust with night vision goggles, snaking your way through valleys and over ridges, then slowing down from 250KIAS to approach speed in a matter of a few miles at 500', hitting glideslope 1 minute out from touchdown on a 4500' dirt strip at 4500' elevation and 35 degrees celsius, knowing that all your procedures have to be perfect in order to avoid running off the end of the runway into a hill 1000' beyond and igniting your 130,000 lb aircraft that is full of fuel?"


Ever fly a 402 or 310 in freezing rain and intercept the localizer a mile from the airport and never intercept the glideslope because you are below it and can not climb. Or take of in a king air loaded to the gills out of a 3000 foot strip with unaccpetable terrain on either end. We can go round and round. Military pilots are not the only guys that have to peal the seat out of there azz after a flight.

We service some of the most intolarable airfields in the country, with half of the lights working, no app lights etc, and no night vision equipment.

I have flown approaches to ¼ mile indefinite ceilings, with a women giving birth and screaming 3 feet behind me.

Re-read the previous posts and will note that I mentioned I have a respect for military pilots and what they do, and for those that have only flown on one side probably do not have a full appreciation to what each other do.

Your post was purely an attack, it conveyed nothing to the discussion. We have retired military pilots that fly for us. These guys have spent 30 years flying fighters, heavy’s etc. And they think the job they have now is far more stressful then anything in the military. 20 minutes from flight page out to gear up and on the way, so we have to make half of it up as we go.

So how does tactical fighting in an aircraft relate to the airlines? That was the discussion, re-read the post instead of just making an attack. Contribute something.

coordinating with multiple ATC / AWACS agencies as well as ground units at the same time; flying a high-performance aircraft that has to do some feat (drop bombs, drop cargo, employ sensors, etc) other than solely aviating?

WHAT, every day we deal with ATC. Poor airports, no radar coverage, weather issues. Etc.
slowing down from 250KIAS to approach speed in a matter of a few miles at 500',

-We fly 250 to the marker daily.

You have no idea what we do, so keep your mouth shut. Don't even try to shoot back, because I'm in a very hot, unfriendly place and don't have a lot of patience anymore.

I value your opinion as much as 2 cents, and to keep my mouth shut, is that a threat?

I have shot back and if you are unhappy with what you are doing, then resign and come home. I would not bitch one moment about serving my country.

Your venting and verbal assualt will be taken with a grain of salt. If I can be an outlet for you to keep you sanity for one more day than I am glad I could help you.

MARK

 

[Hooverboy]

Chill out

You boys need to chill out. Both of times are good, but different. And all of your points are valid. No need to be so defensive.



My partner when I went through 737 training was an ASA captain with twice the hours I had. Both of us brought different skills to the table. He was a fantastic system manager, and great at CRM. He could fly a great ILS, and knew a lot about how the airlines work. I found that I was a better at the stick and rudder skills. Flying VFR descending turning pattern at the back of the ship really taught me how to put the airplane where I wanted it. I had no problem with the circling to land approach in the 737, but my partner was absolutely terrified of it (and he wasn't very good at it either.) But when it came to flows, flight directors, talking to dispatch, and knowing how airlines work, I was clueless.



I thought all things being equal at that point in time, he would be a much better candidate for the airlines than I was, but I know I'm TRAINABLE. I think that's what the airlines are looking for. I'm not saying that civilian pilots aren't as trainable, just that military pilots are a known quantity. An airline knows exactly what they are getting when they hire military. They know exactly what kind of program an aviator went through to earn their wings. There are so many different ways for a civilian to get their qualifications and hours, it's much more of an unknown.



As far as the hours go, civilians tend to spend a lot more time airborne going from point A to point B. Yes there may be a lot of stress and bad weather on takeoff and landing, but the 3 hours in between is mostly wings level. I have 2150 hours with 1160 sorties. That's an average of 1 hours 50 min per flight, and most of that 1.8 hours I was actually doing something. Bombing pattern, low levels, tanking, formation, etc. Yes, some of it was cross-country wings level time, and some of it was holding overhead of the ship. Any military pilot that tries to sell you that all of their time is high stress is full of crap.



The other bias we have to take into factor is that most of the old guys in the airlines are ex-military. It hasn’t been until recent history that civilians were ever hired is such high quantity. The main reasons are because the military upped it commitment to 8 years, and hasn’t trained as many pilots as it has in decades past.



As for my partner and I, I got called by SWA for an interview first. I don’t know why. He is a great pilot, a fantastic person, and was really easy to work with. I hope he gets called soon.



Arguing who is better, civilian or military is like arguing if creamy peanut butter is better than crunchy. (Everyone knows creamy is better.) It’s not our decision so don’t worry about it.



Can I get a witness?

 

[MarineKC130]

Nowhere in my post did I complain about what we do. I love what we do. I am not going to come home and resign and you trying to twist my words that way is not appreciated. The only part of my job that sucks is being away from family so much (over 14 months in 2 years). Other than that, it is hot, sweaty, tiring, dangerous, thankless work and I wouldn't give it up for anything. I took exception to your post not because I think your hours are worthless or because I expect preferential treatment by airline HR folks (I don't even want to fly airlines) but because you pointed a finger in our direction and basically how you're better than us because you don't have weather specialists, wheels watches, etc. You spoke out of turn with no knowledge of what we do. I have no doubt that air ambulance work is dangerous and trying. But no more so than what we are doing out here so you can sit at home with your family and run your mouth at how your time is better than ours. So, vetteracer, I think your time is probably somewhere close to as trying as ours, but I still think you have no idea what you're talking about.