Military Jet Trainer and Brand New Crop Duster Collide in TX

[FN FAL]

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/military/20050118-1424-aircraftcollision.html

 

[Rook]

Grew up at SPS. Sorry about the crop-duster pilot. See and avoid of course but was he flying in a MOA? Or along a known Training route?


Rook

 

[avbug]

When I was in Kansas, a B-1 route cut through our area. I used to joke about oging to whiteman and putting bumperstickers on the nose of the B-1's that said, "If you can read this, you're too **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** close." (Never did, of course).

Several times while coming out of a field I saw them comr by very close, very low, very fast. Always figured sooner or later.

The news blurb notes that apparently this collision occured at five thousand feet. Ag aircraft seldom ferry above 500', when working. Possibly they were repositioning somewhere long distance, because five grand is well above nosebleed altitudes for most ag airplanes. A new airplane is a turbine airplane (excepting some of the dromaders), that would really be the only reason for climbing up there.

Glad that at least the tweet crew got out okay. Sorry to hear about the ag driver.

 

[TonyC]

When I was in Kansas, a B-1 route cut through our area. I used to joke about oging to whiteman and putting bumperstickers on the nose of the B-1's that said, "If you can read this, you're too **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** close." (Never did, of course).

Good thing ya never did, since Whiteman had B-2s.

Your culprit was likely McConnell AFB in Wichita, or perhaps Ellsworth AFB, SD.

 

[GravityHater]

I always worry when these things happen if they will eventually convert all MOAs Alert areas etc to R-airspace. If you were to see a chart of how much a/s the military has already in use, it may boggle your mind from a simple 'national freedom to move about' standpoint.
I suspect that it will happen with a creeping gradualness so that no one will notice until we are stuck in a bunch of little corridors. I fully appreciate the military needs training space but it is hard to balance our freedoms vs our security needs, just like we are experiencing in airline passenger travel these days.
Maybe they won't do anything, the military guys usually only lose a little hardware in these things anyway.

 

[TonyC]

I always worry when these things happen if they will eventually convert all MOAs Alert areas etc to R-airspace. If you were to see a chart of how much a/s the military has already in use, it may boggle your mind from a simple 'national freedom to move about' standpoint.

I doubt, given the altitude of 5,000', that there was any use of military airspace involved. My guess - - pure speculation based solely on my own experience in the Tweet - - is this was a VFR leg of a cross country, the route was chosen by the student based upon landmarks selected between the departure and destination airports to rpovide an opportunity to practice chart reading and dead reckoning skills. Measure distance and course from point 1 to point 2, set a heading corrected for winds, set a groundspeed, hack the clock, check the groundspeed, adjust the heading, adjust the speed, check the timing, adjust the groundspeed, and so on. When you reach the timing you should be at point 2, hack the clock, turn to point 3, adjust the groundspeed, and so on. No military route, just the good ole U.S. of A. The hardest part of teaching this part of the syllabus was getting the student to get his eyes off the chart and clock, and into the sky.

See and avoid - - there is NO substitute.

 

[EagleRJ]

SPS is a good place to get killed when the Wing is training. Zoomies in the pattern, trainees in the tower, and hot dogs arriving and departing the area. I've had several close calls in the area, usually with Talons. When you have a two-ship or a four-ship, you have just one pilot looking for traffic, and three pilots just trying to stay in formation. Those T-38s were hard enough to spot when they were white- whoever decided to have them painted camo grey was an idiot.

I'm surprised this sort of thing doesn't happen more often!

 

[RJP]

SPS is a good place to get killed when the Wing is training. Zoomies in the pattern, trainees in the tower, and hot dogs arriving and departing the area. I've had several close calls in the area, usually with Talons. When you have a two-ship or a four-ship, you have just one pilot looking for traffic, and three pilots just trying to stay in formation. Those T-38s were hard enough to spot when they were white- whoever decided to have them painted camo grey was an idiot.

I'm surprised this sort of thing doesn't happen more often!

Ruins the "Big Sky Theory".

SPS is extremely busy. You're correct about changing the paint scheme to the shamu crap. It's more "tactical". The white ones were hard to see, the blue ones were invisible and the gray ones must disappear when it's overcast too.

 

[avbug]

Dunno about today (I believe Whiteman is the B2's only operational base, today), but when I was working in Kansas, there were no operational B2's. It wasn't even rolled out for the public then, let alone based at whiteman.

I might be mistaken, but I thought I recalled the Lancers operating then as coming out of whiteman. Am I wrong?


--never mind. I checked. Minuteman prior to the B-2. Ah well. They say memory is the first to go (I think. I don't remember), but I hope not, because a whole lot of other things have already gone...

 

[agpilot34]

This was a brand spankin new Air Tractor 502B, just picked up from the plant in Olney, TX, being ferried to the new owners in South Dakota. That is the reason it was at 5,000 ft. when the mid air occured. The pilot was from Arkansas. Fro what I've heard this evening, he was a guy that Air Tractor occasionally hired to ferry new aircraft to their owners. I've had a couple of close calls with tweets and T-38s a few years back when I was cropdusting, and a few more in the last year or so flying pipeline patrol. I know exactly what Avbug is saying about popping up out of a field at the end of a pass and all of a sudden, you've got a fast mover in your windscreen. I've got a pipeline I fly that runs East to West about 3 miles off the South end of Shepard's runways, plus there are several MTR's that run through some of the gathering systems I fly. See and avoid is a must out there, but sooner or later, the worst happens. Glad the tweet crew made it out, and my prayers go out to the 502 pilot's family.

 

[Fury220]

I doubt, given the altitude of 5,000', that there was any use of military airspace involved. My guess - - pure speculation based solely on my own experience in the Tweet - - is this was a VFR leg of a cross country, the route was chosen by the student based upon landmarks selected between the departure and destination airports to rpovide an opportunity to practice chart reading and dead reckoning skills. Measure distance and course from point 1 to point 2, set a heading corrected for winds, set a groundspeed, hack the clock, check the groundspeed, adjust the heading, adjust the speed, check the timing, adjust the groundspeed, and so on. When you reach the timing you should be at point 2, hack the clock, turn to point 3, adjust the groundspeed, and so on. No military route, just the good ole U.S. of A. The hardest part of teaching this part of the syllabus was getting the student to get his eyes off the chart and clock, and into the sky.

See and avoid - - there is NO substitute.

It was a local training sortie -- not a cross country.

And, about the grey T-38s....they're actually EASIER to see with the contrasting paint jobs. Try picking up a white jet against a white cloudy background and you'll see what I mean. The 50/50 grey/white scheme lets you pick one up against clouds or against ground clutter, so you have a statistically better chance of seeing the Talon.

And to the GA pilots in here: I know that a transponder/radio aren't required, but, if you have the use of those devices, please use them to their max extent. I can't tell you much about the accident (USAF controlls the info until the safety board finishes up), but maybe this would have helped a little bit.

Who knows. Our prayers go out to the pilots/families/friends. Fly safe everyone and God Bless.

 

[agpilot34]

From my own personal experience, I beg to differ with you about the grey T-38's being easier to spot. I could pick the white ones up much faster, but maybe that's just me. You are correct about the transponder and radio use, but the Air Tractor probably wasnt equipped with either one. Radio, maybe...Transponder, I seriously doubt it. It's an option, but usually the only guys I've seen with them in Ag aircraft are guys that either do some USFS fire suppression contract work (required equipment), or guys that do alot of spraying in or around controlled airspace. Other than that, it just isnt needed. This just goes to show that things like this can happen anywhere. I could see this happening down on the deck, with an ag aircraft ferrying out on a load or popping up out of a field to turn at the end of a run, coliding with a jet on an active MTR, but at 5,000 ft in basically the middle of nowhere, it's just a sad, freak accident. Be safe and keep your eyes outside.

 

[TonyC]

It was a local training sortie -- not a cross country.

I didn't look up the location of the crash before. Now I see it was about 40 NM NNW of Sheppard, about halfway between Sheppard and Altus. I'm not familiar with the area (ask me about Enid), but I'm guessing there was a MOA in the neighborhood, and perhaps they were enroute to or from the areas?


CLEAR, CLEAR, CLEAR !

And to the GA pilots in here: I know that a transponder/radio aren't required, but, if you have the use of those devices, please use them to their max extent. I can't tell you much about the accident (USAF controlls the info until the safety board finishes up), but maybe this would have helped a little bit.

Unless the Tweet got TCAS since I left, the only help it would have been is to the controller who might have seen him and been able to provide traffic calls to the Tweet. A radio would have been even better.

A word to the wise - - treat MOAs with respect.

 

[414Flyer]

Grew up at SPS. Sorry about the crop-duster pilot. See and avoid of course but was he flying in a MOA? Or along a known Training route?


Rook

I grew up there too, did my flight training there

 

[RJP]

I didn't look up the location of the crash before. Now I see it was about 40 NM NNW of Sheppard, about halfway between Sheppard and Altus. I'm not familiar with the area (ask me about Enid), but I'm guessing there was a MOA in the neighborhood, and perhaps they were enroute to or from the areas?

Did the article say what altitude they were at? Could've been a low level route. Lots of them West of SPS.

 

[PropsForward]

Unless they start painting them safety orange, there will always be a time of day and/or weather condition that will let just about any paint job blend with the horizon or terrain.

What is the recommendation? 16 outside looking for traffic, 4 inside.

 

[RightPedal]

My thoughts and prayers go out to the family who morn this great loss. No Thanks to the internet I could know this person. I hurt when I get news like this.
We all have questions about these things and mine is what in the world is a crop duster doing flying around at 5000ft. Most agpilots get scared when they get much over 300ft.

 

[TonyC]

Did the article say what altitude they were at?

The article says, "He [Sheppard spokesman Master Sgt. Jeff Szczechowski ] said he did not know what caused the collision, which happened at about 5,000 feet."

Too high to be a low level route. Fury220 said, "It was a local training sortie." I'll take it then it was a local training sortie. From my look at the map and the description of the location given in an article linked from the other thread, I'd say the crash site is at about the Sheppard VORTAC (if there is one, I'm just makin' it up) 345 degree radial at 40 DME. That looks to me like a good place to put a T-37 practice area.

If I were a bit more resourceful, I could drag out some charts and find the real Navaid and the MOA along with altitudes, but at the moment, I'm not. Knowing any of this changes little.

Condolences to the family of the Ag pilot.

I wouldn't forget, too, that although the Tweet pilots survived the crash, their ordeal has only begun. There will be plenty of questions to answer, and not all will come from external sources. The most difficult part will be living with themselves knowing that someone else isn't.

 

[RJP]

The poor bastards in the Tweet are at least an inch shorter after ejecting in those seats.

5000' seems a bit low for the practice area but I can't recall any details from UPT.

Shame this happened but it's hard to believe it doesn't happen more often.

 

[TonyC]

5000' seems a bit low for the practice area but I can't recall any details from UPT.

That's how you might get TO or FROM the areas?

 

[agpilot34]

My thoughts and prayers go out to the family who morn this great loss. No Thanks to the internet I could know this person. I hurt when I get news like this.
We all have questions about these things and mine is what in the world is a crop duster doing flying around at 5000ft. Most agpilots get scared when they get much over 300ft.

Again, the Air Tractor had been picked up in Olney, TX at the factory, and was being ferried to South Dakota to the buyer. That's why it was at 5,000 ft. Be kinda hard to ferry almost 2,000 miles at application altitude!!

 

[Fury220]

As much info as I can give you...

...in the interest of fighting rumors and speculation.

Ok, now that the official article is posted on the Air Force website (http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?storyID=123009630), I can tell you guys a little more about this. Sorry about being so glib earlier, but the Air Force has a bunch of regs about disclosing information during a safety investigation. I would never want to sacrifice the privacy of the pilots involved or the reputation of the Air Force just to make sure you are all "in the know" (no offense, haha). Of course, nothing I say is official (and I am not a member of the investigation board), so take it all with a grain of salt as one pilot talking to another. Hopefully, the resulting discussion will help us all learn something from this and keep us all safer when operating in the North Texas/Southern Oklahoma area...

Reports say the the crash took place near the town of Hollister, OK, which is located about 7 miles east of Frederick Municipal Airport (http://www.airnav.com/airport/KFDR). The 80th Flying Training Wing uses KFDR for T-37 VFR pattern work to ease the congestion at Sheppard, which is crowded enough as it is. The RSU (Runway Supervisory Unit), callsign "Hacker," is always manned by a couple ENJJPT Instuctor Pilots whenever there are T-37s operating in and around KFDR. These IPs also broadcast traffic advisories on the KFDR UNICOM (122.8) to civillian pilots in the pattern.

Back when I was still a Tweet student here, we used to depart Hacker's pattern to the east (toward the town of Hollister) and climb to a VFR hemispheric altitude (typically 5,500 MSL). While maintaining VFR, we'd contact either Sheppard Approach for vectors home, or contact Sheppard Area Monitor for vectors into the Shep I MOA (which is basically directly above Frederick, Hollister, and several other towns in southern Oklahoma. I'm fairly sure this is the same procedure, but I haven't had my posterior in a Tweet since May of last year. It's possible the procedures have changed.

This looks like a pretty bad example of "wrong place, wrong time" for both crews involved. Look at the factors: 2 crews *probably* both operating VFR, Tweet crew is focusing on training and is accomplishing several tasks simultaneously, civilian pilot is *probably* unfamiliar with the area, civilian pilot is *probably* operating without a transponder (yes, I know it's not required, please don't flame) and traffic is VERY high in the vincinity of Sheppard/Frederick.

Bottom line: if you're a civilian pilot operating VFR in that area, please use a great deal of caution. If possible, contact Sheppard (or Altus) Approach and squawk appropriately. At the very least, PLEASE keep an eye outside the cockpit and look for us military operators. You can be SURE we're looking for you! Hopefully, we'll all learn from this and avoid stuff like it in the future.

God Bless and fly safe!

 

[avbug]

Most ag airplanes have transponders. Not all, but most.

Mine does.

 

[agpilot34]

Most ag airplanes have transponders. Not all, but most.

Mine does.

Things must be different in your neck of the woods, because I have NEVER flown one that had a transponder, and only two of my rides ever had a COMM radio other than a business band unit for talking to ground crews and base. Two pieces of equipment I always had were my Garmin 195 and my handheld NAV/COMM.

 

[DirtyBeech]

tweet trainees, atc trainees, and probably a standard equipped ag plane (i.e. no equipment) is a bad combo. i have flown into shepherd ALOT, and it seems as thought they are routinely trying to spear me with a T-38. it's probably why they have that goofey arrival over the sps vor unless you know the kickapoo visual approach procedure. someone correct me if i'm wrong, but i seem to remember that alot of the time the tweets head over to frederick for pattern work.

anyway, prayers for the ag pilots family.

 

[avbug]

We have three airplanes presently; only one doesn't have a transponder. One has a full IFR panel as it's primary duty is a SEAT.

I've flown operations where the only radio was a CB, nothing wrong with that. However, most ag aircraft that I see these days have at a minimum a radio and usually a transponder. Where you're based makes a difference, but if the aircraft plans on being moved anywhere out of BFE, very often it has a transponder.

Someone mentioned coloring the aircraft orange. I'm not sure this would make much difference. Probably the most common color for ag airplanes is yellow. Our Drom was yellow until a few months ago; my helmet even matched. A high visibility yellow, too. However, we frequently got complaints from ground troops and air attack platforms, as well as leads, saying they had a hard time spotting us.

The new national color scheme requires a white airplane with red wingtips and a red vertical stab. While I question the idea of putting a white airplane in the smoke...the consensus is that this scheme is going to be a lot higher vis. Our airplane is now repainted in the new scheme (the "invasion stripes" are gone), and we'll see this year what happens.

 

[Fury220]

i have flown into shepherd ALOT...

Funny...but as much as you fly in, you still can't seem to spell Sheppard -- haha

why they have that goofey arrival over the sps vor unless you know the kickapoo visual approach procedure...

Yeah, if you flew a straight-in to 17, your final approach course would take you directly over T-38s who are in the flare/go around at about 160KIAS. Bad news. They use the SPS VORTAC as a common starting point for unfamiliar aircraft just for that reason. 2300' is your altitude because the T-38s are right over your cranium at 2800' and 300KIAS in the pattern. Makes for some fun traffic calls...

A couple years ago, we had a Cessna fly DIRECTLY over the field at about 2500MSL...SMACK DAB in the middle of everyone's pattern (and through the Class D airspace, I might add). RAPCON/Tower/the RSUs had no contact with the guy. Interesting...

Then there's the story about the guys in the Mexican Air Force, but that's too long to tell...

someone correct me if i'm wrong, but i seem to remember that alot of the time the tweets head over to frederick for pattern work.

You're spot-on. Check my post above for links and stuff, if you're more curious.

Fly safe -- I promise I won't spear you with a Talon.

 

[RJP]

Ah, Hacker. Forgot about that place.

 

[DirtyBeech]

gotta love the grammar police. keep bringing it strong buddy.

 

[Fury220]

gotta love the grammar police. keep bringing it strong buddy.

You mean "spelling police?" haha