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Military Jet Trainer and Brand New Crop Duster Collide in TX
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As much info as I can give you...
...in the interest of fighting rumors and speculation.
Ok, now that the official article is posted on the Air Force website (http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?storyID=123009630), I can tell you guys a little more about this. Sorry about being so glib earlier, but the Air Force has a bunch of regs about disclosing information during a safety investigation. I would never want to sacrifice the privacy of the pilots involved or the reputation of the Air Force just to make sure you are all "in the know" (no offense, haha). Of course, nothing I say is official (and I am not a member of the investigation board), so take it all with a grain of salt as one pilot talking to another. Hopefully, the resulting discussion will help us all learn something from this and keep us all safer when operating in the North Texas/Southern Oklahoma area...
Reports say the the crash took place near the town of Hollister, OK, which is located about 7 miles east of Frederick Municipal Airport (http://www.airnav.com/airport/KFDR). The 80th Flying Training Wing uses KFDR for T-37 VFR pattern work to ease the congestion at Sheppard, which is crowded enough as it is. The RSU (Runway Supervisory Unit), callsign "Hacker," is always manned by a couple ENJJPT Instuctor Pilots whenever there are T-37s operating in and around KFDR. These IPs also broadcast traffic advisories on the KFDR UNICOM (122.8) to civillian pilots in the pattern.
Back when I was still a Tweet student here, we used to depart Hacker's pattern to the east (toward the town of Hollister) and climb to a VFR hemispheric altitude (typically 5,500 MSL). While maintaining VFR, we'd contact either Sheppard Approach for vectors home, or contact Sheppard Area Monitor for vectors into the Shep I MOA (which is basically directly above Frederick, Hollister, and several other towns in southern Oklahoma. I'm fairly sure this is the same procedure, but I haven't had my posterior in a Tweet since May of last year. It's possible the procedures have changed.
This looks like a pretty bad example of "wrong place, wrong time" for both crews involved. Look at the factors: 2 crews *probably* both operating VFR, Tweet crew is focusing on training and is accomplishing several tasks simultaneously, civilian pilot is *probably* unfamiliar with the area, civilian pilot is *probably* operating without a transponder (yes, I know it's not required, please don't flame) and traffic is VERY high in the vincinity of Sheppard/Frederick.
Bottom line: if you're a civilian pilot operating VFR in that area, please use a great deal of caution. If possible, contact Sheppard (or Altus) Approach and squawk appropriately. At the very least, PLEASE keep an eye outside the cockpit and look for us military operators. You can be SURE we're looking for you! Hopefully, we'll all learn from this and avoid stuff like it in the future.
God Bless and fly safe!
...in the interest of fighting rumors and speculation.
Ok, now that the official article is posted on the Air Force website (http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?storyID=123009630), I can tell you guys a little more about this. Sorry about being so glib earlier, but the Air Force has a bunch of regs about disclosing information during a safety investigation. I would never want to sacrifice the privacy of the pilots involved or the reputation of the Air Force just to make sure you are all "in the know" (no offense, haha). Of course, nothing I say is official (and I am not a member of the investigation board), so take it all with a grain of salt as one pilot talking to another. Hopefully, the resulting discussion will help us all learn something from this and keep us all safer when operating in the North Texas/Southern Oklahoma area...
Reports say the the crash took place near the town of Hollister, OK, which is located about 7 miles east of Frederick Municipal Airport (http://www.airnav.com/airport/KFDR). The 80th Flying Training Wing uses KFDR for T-37 VFR pattern work to ease the congestion at Sheppard, which is crowded enough as it is. The RSU (Runway Supervisory Unit), callsign "Hacker," is always manned by a couple ENJJPT Instuctor Pilots whenever there are T-37s operating in and around KFDR. These IPs also broadcast traffic advisories on the KFDR UNICOM (122.8) to civillian pilots in the pattern.
Back when I was still a Tweet student here, we used to depart Hacker's pattern to the east (toward the town of Hollister) and climb to a VFR hemispheric altitude (typically 5,500 MSL). While maintaining VFR, we'd contact either Sheppard Approach for vectors home, or contact Sheppard Area Monitor for vectors into the Shep I MOA (which is basically directly above Frederick, Hollister, and several other towns in southern Oklahoma. I'm fairly sure this is the same procedure, but I haven't had my posterior in a Tweet since May of last year. It's possible the procedures have changed.
This looks like a pretty bad example of "wrong place, wrong time" for both crews involved. Look at the factors: 2 crews *probably* both operating VFR, Tweet crew is focusing on training and is accomplishing several tasks simultaneously, civilian pilot is *probably* unfamiliar with the area, civilian pilot is *probably* operating without a transponder (yes, I know it's not required, please don't flame
) and traffic is VERY high in the vincinity of Sheppard/Frederick.Bottom line: if you're a civilian pilot operating VFR in that area, please use a great deal of caution. If possible, contact Sheppard (or Altus) Approach and squawk appropriately. At the very least, PLEASE keep an eye outside the cockpit and look for us military operators. You can be SURE we're looking for you!
Hopefully, we'll all learn from this and avoid stuff like it in the future.God Bless and fly safe!
avbug said:
Things must be different in your neck of the woods, because I have NEVER flown one that had a transponder, and only two of my rides ever had a COMM radio other than a business band unit for talking to ground crews and base. Two pieces of equipment I always had were my Garmin 195 and my handheld NAV/COMM.
Last edited:
DirtyBeech
The Last Starfighter
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tweet trainees, atc trainees, and probably a standard equipped ag plane (i.e. no equipment) is a bad combo. i have flown into shepherd ALOT, and it seems as thought they are routinely trying to spear me with a T-38. it's probably why they have that goofey arrival over the sps vor unless you know the kickapoo visual approach procedure. someone correct me if i'm wrong, but i seem to remember that alot of the time the tweets head over to frederick for pattern work.
anyway, prayers for the ag pilots family.
anyway, prayers for the ag pilots family.
We have three airplanes presently; only one doesn't have a transponder. One has a full IFR panel as it's primary duty is a SEAT.
I've flown operations where the only radio was a CB, nothing wrong with that. However, most ag aircraft that I see these days have at a minimum a radio and usually a transponder. Where you're based makes a difference, but if the aircraft plans on being moved anywhere out of BFE, very often it has a transponder.
Someone mentioned coloring the aircraft orange. I'm not sure this would make much difference. Probably the most common color for ag airplanes is yellow. Our Drom was yellow until a few months ago; my helmet even matched. A high visibility yellow, too. However, we frequently got complaints from ground troops and air attack platforms, as well as leads, saying they had a hard time spotting us.
The new national color scheme requires a white airplane with red wingtips and a red vertical stab. While I question the idea of putting a white airplane in the smoke...the consensus is that this scheme is going to be a lot higher vis. Our airplane is now repainted in the new scheme (the "invasion stripes" are gone), and we'll see this year what happens.
I've flown operations where the only radio was a CB, nothing wrong with that. However, most ag aircraft that I see these days have at a minimum a radio and usually a transponder. Where you're based makes a difference, but if the aircraft plans on being moved anywhere out of BFE, very often it has a transponder.
Someone mentioned coloring the aircraft orange. I'm not sure this would make much difference. Probably the most common color for ag airplanes is yellow. Our Drom was yellow until a few months ago; my helmet even matched. A high visibility yellow, too. However, we frequently got complaints from ground troops and air attack platforms, as well as leads, saying they had a hard time spotting us.
The new national color scheme requires a white airplane with red wingtips and a red vertical stab. While I question the idea of putting a white airplane in the smoke...the consensus is that this scheme is going to be a lot higher vis. Our airplane is now repainted in the new scheme (the "invasion stripes" are gone), and we'll see this year what happens.
DirtyBeech said:
Funny...but as much as you fly in, you still can't seem to spell Sheppard -- haha
DirtyBeech said:
Yeah, if you flew a straight-in to 17, your final approach course would take you directly over T-38s who are in the flare/go around at about 160KIAS. Bad news. They use the SPS VORTAC as a common starting point for unfamiliar aircraft just for that reason. 2300' is your altitude because the T-38s are right over your cranium at 2800' and 300KIAS in the pattern. Makes for some fun traffic calls...
A couple years ago, we had a Cessna fly DIRECTLY over the field at about 2500MSL...SMACK DAB in the middle of everyone's pattern (and through the Class D airspace, I might add). RAPCON/Tower/the RSUs had no contact with the guy. Interesting...
Then there's the story about the guys in the Mexican Air Force, but that's too long to tell...
DirtyBeech said:
You're spot-on. Check my post above for links and stuff, if you're more curious.
Fly safe -- I promise I won't spear you with a Talon.
DirtyBeech
The Last Starfighter
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2004
- Posts
- 782
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