Midwest will Cease all 717 Ops Nov 3, 2009

[GOULET!]

Republic sucks and ALPA sucks even worse.

 

[NuGuy]

That would be awesome, but the fact is that we are still near 700. I cannot see us dumping 500 jets in two years. Maybe down by 200 to 500, but that would be the extent of it.

To do any more we would have to see a WO parked, and two FFD contracts voided. It is quite possible as there are a few that are up next fall, but it would take a lot of work.

Here is to hoping!

Heyas ACL,

The 50 seaters are done. From what I understand, some of the leases are up prior to the end of the DCI provider contracts, and DAL will no longer subsidize the leases. It will be up to the individual lift provider to provide the airfames, which most will be unable to do at current market rates.

So either the wet lease provider (Skywest, RAH, etc) provides the lift at a much lower cost to Delta, or they terminate the lift contract, either of which is a big win for mama Delta.

The wholly owneds are toast from their current size. They're gonna do to Mesaba and Comair what USair did to Piedmont and Allegheny. They're gonna mush them together, shed a lot of lift, and you're going to wind up with an operator that is around 50-60 airframes that is designed to operate short notice schedule changes (hard to do with contracted lift) and nitch markets (someone has to fly to International Falls).

The only lift remaining out of this is the 76 seaters, which is presently capped.

You're dealing with fNWA management. They're like a Casino...win or lose, they're going to put the screws to you...the only question is how much.

Nu

 

[10nCLR]

They not only screwed the pilots and FAs, but also those loyal passengers. Most of all don't forget about all those wonderful customer service agents that worked the frontline. They lost their jobs too, with no real incentive to relocate. They were the first employees who made contact with the passengers. The CS agents were the ones who initially made them feel important when they first checked in. They're the ones who gave out the first impression of that hometown feeling. Then you also have the dispatchers and airport ops working behind the scenes trying to keep the flights running ontime. Then once boarding started, it was the CA, FO and the FAs job to maintain that hometown feel and a wonderful job they did. Their slogan, "Best Care in the Air" died June 23,2009.
I have a indirect but personal connection with Midwest. My mom worked for Kimberly-Clark Corp back in the day and so I was around the culture of K-C Aviation and the early Midwest Express in the late 70's and early to mid 80's at a young age. Sellout Timothy Sucks Hoeksema lived down the street from us in a very modest neighborhood out in the countryside(boondocks)of tiny old Neenah, Wis. I flew on them quite often during those growing years and never had a problem. The company always treated their employees and passengers like family. I have many fond memories but now even though I'm not affected by it directly, I feel bad for all those employees who worked for the past 20 plus yrs building up an airline reputation like no other, one that was born from where I grew up. Then 40 yrs later along comes RAH and its all downhill from here. They sure screwd over the MKE employees. The funny part is, is that they think they can maintain that Hometown airline persona. Good luck. Losers.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Heyas ACL,

The 50 seaters are done. From what I understand, some of the leases are up prior to the end of the DCI provider contracts, and DAL will no longer subsidize the leases. It will be up to the individual lift provider to provide the airfames, which most will be unable to do at current market rates.

So either the wet lease provider (Skywest, RAH, etc) provides the lift at a much lower cost to Delta, or they terminate the lift contract, either of which is a big win for mama Delta.

The wholly owneds are toast from their current size. They're gonna do to Mesaba and Comair what USair did to Piedmont and Allegheny. They're gonna mush them together, shed a lot of lift, and you're going to wind up with an operator that is around 50-60 airframes that is designed to operate short notice schedule changes (hard to do with contracted lift) and nitch markets (someone has to fly to International Falls).

The only lift remaining out of this is the 76 seaters, which is presently capped.

You're dealing with fNWA management. They're like a Casino...win or lose, they're going to put the screws to you...the only question is how much.

Nu

And that takes time. I do not see this being done it two years. I agree that DCI is going to get it handed to them, but I cannot see them shedding 500 airframes in two years. I would be great if they did, as long as we keep our back bone and do not allow one more pound, one more seat or one more airframe! (BTW I think we have the fortitude to do this and will, this is a different Delta and I like it)

As for DCI, I know there are a lot of aircraft that are coming up on their lease terms. Some of them this month! There is little market for 50 seat lift. I agree. It is going to get ugly down at DCI. I forecast a little more than 200 jets in two years. I was thinking we would see 350-425 depending on if the DCI operators played ball and paid for the leases. Some will have to to stay afloat. The question is how long can they successfully do it. I am thinking two years unless some lease companies give them the jets for pennies on the dollar, which may happen because some money is better than no money.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Yes this industry is in the state it is today because of the decisions pilots made back in the early 90's. When Delta pilots allowed Comair to fly 50-seat jets for them, the door was kicked wide open. Back in the mid 90's most major carriers (now known as Legacy Carriers) hired mostly military pilots. The majority of the pilots at the legacy carriers at the time were former military. It was not natural for them to accept a 50-seat airplane on property for their pilots to fly. The leaders at ALPA and APA were among the Legacy Carriers. Hmmm, see a trend here.

ALL JETS should have been flown by the mainline carrier regardless of seats. We will fall over each other to get a 747, 777, 767, 757 or Airbus on property. But we will farm off and run like hell from the EMB-145,170,190 type aircraft. WHY? Greed and a lack of vision and the "its all about me" has come back to haunt this industry. Pilots we are our own worst enemy.

Remember what was going on in the minds of mainline negotiators during the late 80's and early 90's: They were interested in eliminating the B-scales, protecting their pensions, and securing the top end of their pay scales and they thought that scope was an expendable part of their contract. Funny how all the parts of a contract work together somehow and when you jettison one, you leave the rest vulnerable.

 

[nwaredtail]

Ummmmm, doubt it. DL RJ numbers will be at around 200 total within 2 years from now from what I hear. I think it is going the right direction if that is the case.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Put down the pipe General. They may be parking some 50 seaters as the leases/contracts come due, but they are utilizing the 76 seaters more for an actual INCREASE in block hours. Add in the eventual relief "joke" will gibe them and you will see the 9's and 88's go away very quickly.

 

[mynameisjim]

...I forecast a little more than 200 jets in two years. I was thinking we would see 350-425 depending on if the DCI operators played ball and paid for the leases. Some will have to to stay afloat. The question is how long can they successfully do it. I am thinking two years unless some lease companies give them the jets for pennies on the dollar, which may happen because some money is better than no money.

So do you think Delta will be growing during that two year period, or will they remain the same while total ASMs drop?

 

[eaglesview]

Remember what was going on in the minds of mainline negotiators during the late 80's and early 90's: They were interested in eliminating the B-scales, protecting their pensions, and securing the top end of their pay scales and they thought that scope was an expendable part of their contract. Funny how all the parts of a contract work together somehow and when you jettison one, you leave the rest vulnerable.

That is absolutely correct.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

So do you think Delta will be growing during that two year period, or will they remain the same while total ASMs drop?

I think we will see a flat to slight decline in mainline ASM's YOY until this next fall. If the economy is still in the tank, DAL will reassess. Looking at the world economy, Asia is starting to rise so we should see a positive uptick here.

Look at the Asian carriers traffic reports. There is some positive news out there finally.

Going in to 2011. If the economy is good we will see some decent growth.

 

[Monster Buck]

What's the topic of this thread?