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Midwest or stay at Eagle

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miles otoole said:
So,
1) You'll move straight into the left seat?
2) You'll make $60K right away (living overseas, will you have double the QOL?)
3) No scab's fly overseas? (Funny how someone else's job choice years ago somehow forces you to work half way around the world.)
4) No unhappy F/As, gate agents, rampers overseas? (Funny how an unhappy F/A, gate agent or ramper forces you to work half way around the world. "I don't like my co-workers. I am moving to Hong Kong.")
5) Again, you'll be moving directly into the left seat? If not, what's the expected upgrade time?

I admire your optimsm, but really, are you being realistic? It might be cheaper to move to Detroit and be a CFI. FWIW, I know 2 guys who tried the overseas thing and came crawling back last year (hated the locals who hated Americans).

Yes I'm being realistic,
1. No, but at least the upgrade is shorter(5 to 6 years on A330)
2. No, the starting pay is $70,000 plus housing (QOL is better because I don't have to pay anything except food)
3. No scabs because they don't have unioun (good or bad, who cares?)
4. Yes there's a few unhappy workers there but at least they don't talk back to you(they can't speak english:p )
5. Again, right seat with a possibility of upgrade.
 
AA717driver said:
MED said "scAAbs". I believe he's referring to the AA furloughees who have flowed back to Eagle and deprived him of "his" Captain upgrade.

Apparently he disagrees with the arbitrator who ruled those furloughees were contractually permitted to flow back to Eagle. Guess the Eagle MEC should have taken APA's offer to cap flowbacks at 125...TC

AA717driver, you can't be serious, right?

I will admit I am not really qualified to comment on this topic of the AA flow-back dilemma but my Eagle buddies told me that the APA negotiated a JFJ deal without consent of the Eagle MEC, and they got it! How can that be fair? Just because a judge or arbitrator rules on the issue it makes it right? Get outta' here. With that mentality I suppose you agree with all the bankcruptcy judges in this country who are giving management a free pass to subrogate pilot CBAs. I mean, hey, if the judge ruled in the company's favor that must mean labor was demanding too much, right? Yeah, tell that to the pilots of DAL, NW or even take a look at AQ. They are actually making money and the company is still asking the judge overseeing the 1113 filing to completely cancel their contract AND cancel their FULLY FUNDED pension! But hey, if the judge says it's ok it must be! Right!?! Come on, the judges in the country are polluted with bias influence from big business. The largest lobby groups in Washington are the Lawyer Associations. Where do you think judges come from? Most of Congress and the Senate are former lawyers. You can't sue a judge. So who gets to make decisions with impunity? Judges/ arbitrators. They know their people in Washington have their back. Just because they rule on a case doesn't mean it was right. But this is our justice system so we're stuck with this process.

Approx 2 months ago I exchanged some chit-chat with an Eagle Captain at the Starbucks in Midland. He gave me the usual rant about how sh!tty moral is over there. What surprised me though was the latest gripe among the pilots that flow-back pilots were reporting First Officers with to management! What? That's what this captain told me. He went on to say the F/Os weren't doing anything wrong, it was just payback by the flow-backs for bad blood or something like that. If it's true, that kind of treatment is pathetic. If you can't settle your differences in the cockpit handle it within the union. Going to management is something only a spineless individual would do... unless the union and pilot's simply can't get over their differences. Even then, come on... whats up with all the "telling on each other?" In my entire career (15 + years) I have NEVER reported another pilot to mgmt. It's always settled between us or with the input of the union. I always try to keep issues i"n-house", i.e. between pilots. Of course, if I thought it affected safety of flight I would not hesitate to go to mgmt but I wouldn't strech the "safety of flight" caveat just to settle a score either.

I know a couple of flow-backs at Eagle as well and they seem to fit the mold of what this Captain was telling me.
 
Eagle

MED said:
I've been here at Eagle for 6 years and I'm in the process of leaving to work overseas, I don't like to leave the country but I'll work anywhere just to get out of here(Eagle). Here are the reasons why I want to leave:
1. No upgrade
2. No money for FO ($30,000/year for a 6 year FO)
3. You have to fly with scAAbs
4. Unhappy co-workers (gate agents, FAs, rampers, etc.
5. The flight time I'm getting are not valuable to any major airlines. (SIC on a regional jet)
To the guy that post about Eagle going into "BANKRUPTSY" next year, you must know something I don't know, so tell us what it is.
That sounds the same as working at American Airlines!
 
I'll be the first to admit i don't understand the flow-back policy at AMR. A good friend of mine is a flow back to AE. The way he explained it that when times were good, there was a flow through arrangement that allowed eagle guys to move onto mainline, and there were no complaints. The agreement was a 2 way streak, but no one cared since, everything was good and people were moving to bigger and better things. Now that things have changed, things are happenning in reverse and everyone is sore about it. So my question is why are the guys going to Eagle "scAAbs"? Does that title also apply to the pilots who went from Eagle to mainline?
If my understanding of the agreement is wrong, i apologize in advance.
 
str8upflyrght said:
The agreement was a 2 way streak

When you streak your neigborhood one direction, then turn around and run in the opposite direction, ala Will Farrell. "We're goin' streaking!!!"
 
str8upflyrght said:
I'll be the first to admit i don't understand the flow-back policy at AMR. A good friend of mine is a flow back to AE. The way he explained it that when times were good, there was a flow through arrangement that allowed eagle guys to move onto mainline, and there were no complaints. The agreement was a 2 way streak, but no one cared since, everything was good and people were moving to bigger and better things. Now that things have changed, things are happenning in reverse and everyone is sore about it. So my question is why are the guys going to Eagle "scAAbs"? Does that title also apply to the pilots who went from Eagle to mainline?
If my understanding of the agreement is wrong, i apologize in advance.

it was far from a 2 way streak.....

there was supposed to be an eagle pilot for every street hire at american after letter 3 was implemented (a 1-1 ratio). the real ratio came to 15-1 and something like 150 pilots have AA numbers. there are close to 450 flow backs at eagle now.

flow thrus start at 1st year AA pay
flow backs start at their AMR service pay (some TWA flowbacks are being paid 16+ yr captain pay)

the biggest deal to eagle pilots is the "spirit" of the letter was not followed, which the numbers do not lie.

on the other hand the overall treatment of flowbacks by some senior FO's is absolutely unprofessional and wrong. some flowbacks complained to their old APA leaders who went to management on their behalf. the only direct flowback to AE mgmt stories i have heard were "personality" conflicts with FO's to their respective CP.
 
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My $0.02...

Not that it means much...

Stay at AE. The Cookie Palace has no future. Midwest is only hiring because they have to. Boeing wouldn't let them defer the 717. Ask Embraer if the 140s have been shored up for SYX? Yeah, I was at SYX when those were ordered. Then I moved up to MidEx. "You'll all be CA in two years. We want to double our pilot staff." Uh-huh. When I was there, I heard all the promises, all of the rhetoric. Staying at AE will at least give you more employment security that MidEx. Yeah, no commute is nice, but being at the bottom of their senority list is even worse than that. Trust me! I've been there. The only way I would go there is if I didn't have a job at all.

Note: This post does contain some emotional overtones. I personaly DESPISE MidEx management. They are the biggest pieces of cow dung out there. When you find out that you are losing your job from the press watching the evening news BEFORE you get a call from Flight ops is BS. When you get a speech from TH "that we all have to feel the pain" with furloughs, etc., then goes and puts up $70,000 custom-made copper gutters on his house is BS. Don't tell me about pain. When FOs were putting in requests for open time trips the SAME DAY as I returning my ID because I WAS GETTING FURLOUGHED showed great support for their furloughed bretheren. Please!

But I digress....

Stay at Eagle.
 
PacoPollo said:
Which they have NO business to be there in the first place...

i would take you seriously if your info didn't say your current position is "hunting your mom, wife, girlfriend".

i would imagine a twa flowbie could say, "hey an AA guy has my seat."
 
I must reply to 1800 RVR's emotional banter. MidEx is not as bad as he is obviously trying to make it out to be. Yes I heard the 2year upgrade talk, and interestingly when I got hired they had a 21/2 year captain upgrade going through training. Unfortunately what 1800 RVR seems to forget is a little thing called September 11. I was furloughed for 31/2 years and I am now back. Am I at the bottom of the senority.....well I am down there a bit. I don't really mind it actually. It's like being at the bottom of amy senority list. I fly quite a bit, but isn't that why we chose this career? I have been treated very nice and with much respect. As far as management.....well, I personally don't agree with all of their decisions, but they like every other management has had to make some very difficult and painful decisions. Until I am put in a position to run an airline I will not be so quick to HATE management in everything they do. I certainly can have an opinion, but 1800 RVR seems to be especially bitter or maybe he is just an angry person in general. Anyway, I don't know the future of Midwest, but as long as I am here I am going to enjoy the ride. I love it here and I do not commute. My personal opinion is take the job, but I don't know all your circumstances so good luck no matter what you decide.
 
CitationLover said:
i would take you seriously if your info didn't say your current position is "hunting your mom, wife, girlfriend".

i would imagine a twa flowbie could say, "hey an AA guy has my seat."

Why, exactly, could they say this? I guess they could say it, but they would be lying.
 
miles otoole said:
Why, exactly, could they say this? I guess they could say it, but they would be lying.

my guess is there are 5-6yr FO's still at AA in STL, while 15+yr ex-TWA captains are at eagle.
 
Not bitter...

Hey magneticmd80,

Yes, I do remember 9-11. And management did what they had to do at that time. HOWEVER, for a company that espouses "The best care in the air", they sure don't show it to their employees. When I find out that I'm losing my job FROM THE PRESS before I even hear it from my boss, that is pathetic. When they force MR to resign from chief pilot because he took care of HIS pilots, that is pathetic.

Listen, I liked most of the people that I flew with, and most were stand-up guys and gals. I have no respect, though, for those people that were scarfing up the open time for April 2003 as I and countless others were being FURLOUGHED. That is just wrong.

I wish you well. I truly hope that management there has changed, and that their business model comes to fruition. As I said in my post, there was some emotion wrapped into the post, but I was giving my opinion of MidEx. I was letting people know that the grass isn't always greener on the other side. I enjoyed my 5+ years in the Midwest family of airlines on the flying side, but when it comes down to management, forget it. There is no love lost.
 
You will know in five years if you made the right move no matter what you do or do not do.
 
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