Midwest or stay at Eagle

[CitationLover]

I'll be the first to admit i don't understand the flow-back policy at AMR. A good friend of mine is a flow back to AE. The way he explained it that when times were good, there was a flow through arrangement that allowed eagle guys to move onto mainline, and there were no complaints. The agreement was a 2 way streak, but no one cared since, everything was good and people were moving to bigger and better things. Now that things have changed, things are happenning in reverse and everyone is sore about it. So my question is why are the guys going to Eagle "scAAbs"? Does that title also apply to the pilots who went from Eagle to mainline?
If my understanding of the agreement is wrong, i apologize in advance.

it was far from a 2 way streak.....

there was supposed to be an eagle pilot for every street hire at american after letter 3 was implemented (a 1-1 ratio). the real ratio came to 15-1 and something like 150 pilots have AA numbers. there are close to 450 flow backs at eagle now.

flow thrus start at 1st year AA pay
flow backs start at their AMR service pay (some TWA flowbacks are being paid 16+ yr captain pay)

the biggest deal to eagle pilots is the "spirit" of the letter was not followed, which the numbers do not lie.

on the other hand the overall treatment of flowbacks by some senior FO's is absolutely unprofessional and wrong. some flowbacks complained to their old APA leaders who went to management on their behalf. the only direct flowback to AE mgmt stories i have heard were "personality" conflicts with FO's to their respective CP.

 

[1800 RVR]

My $0.02...

Not that it means much...

Stay at AE. The Cookie Palace has no future. Midwest is only hiring because they have to. Boeing wouldn't let them defer the 717. Ask Embraer if the 140s have been shored up for SYX? Yeah, I was at SYX when those were ordered. Then I moved up to MidEx. "You'll all be CA in two years. We want to double our pilot staff." Uh-huh. When I was there, I heard all the promises, all of the rhetoric. Staying at AE will at least give you more employment security that MidEx. Yeah, no commute is nice, but being at the bottom of their senority list is even worse than that. Trust me! I've been there. The only way I would go there is if I didn't have a job at all.

Note: This post does contain some emotional overtones. I personaly DESPISE MidEx management. They are the biggest pieces of cow dung out there. When you find out that you are losing your job from the press watching the evening news BEFORE you get a call from Flight ops is BS. When you get a speech from TH "that we all have to feel the pain" with furloughs, etc., then goes and puts up $70,000 custom-made copper gutters on his house is BS. Don't tell me about pain. When FOs were putting in requests for open time trips the SAME DAY as I returning my ID because I WAS GETTING FURLOUGHED showed great support for their furloughed bretheren. Please!

But I digress....

Stay at Eagle.

 

[PacoPollo]

it was far from a 2 way streak.....


(some TWA flowbacks are being paid 16+ yr captain pay)

Which they have NO business to be there in the first place...

 

[CitationLover]

Which they have NO business to be there in the first place...

i would take you seriously if your info didn't say your current position is "hunting your mom, wife, girlfriend".

i would imagine a twa flowbie could say, "hey an AA guy has my seat."

 

[magneticmd80]

I must reply to 1800 RVR's emotional banter. MidEx is not as bad as he is obviously trying to make it out to be. Yes I heard the 2year upgrade talk, and interestingly when I got hired they had a 21/2 year captain upgrade going through training. Unfortunately what 1800 RVR seems to forget is a little thing called September 11. I was furloughed for 31/2 years and I am now back. Am I at the bottom of the senority.....well I am down there a bit. I don't really mind it actually. It's like being at the bottom of amy senority list. I fly quite a bit, but isn't that why we chose this career? I have been treated very nice and with much respect. As far as management.....well, I personally don't agree with all of their decisions, but they like every other management has had to make some very difficult and painful decisions. Until I am put in a position to run an airline I will not be so quick to HATE management in everything they do. I certainly can have an opinion, but 1800 RVR seems to be especially bitter or maybe he is just an angry person in general. Anyway, I don't know the future of Midwest, but as long as I am here I am going to enjoy the ride. I love it here and I do not commute. My personal opinion is take the job, but I don't know all your circumstances so good luck no matter what you decide.

 

[miles otoole]

i would take you seriously if your info didn't say your current position is "hunting your mom, wife, girlfriend".

i would imagine a twa flowbie could say, "hey an AA guy has my seat."

Why, exactly, could they say this? I guess they could say it, but they would be lying.

 

[CitationLover]

Why, exactly, could they say this? I guess they could say it, but they would be lying.

my guess is there are 5-6yr FO's still at AA in STL, while 15+yr ex-TWA captains are at eagle.

 

[1800 RVR]

Not bitter...

Hey magneticmd80,

Yes, I do remember 9-11. And management did what they had to do at that time. HOWEVER, for a company that espouses "The best care in the air", they sure don't show it to their employees. When I find out that I'm losing my job FROM THE PRESS before I even hear it from my boss, that is pathetic. When they force MR to resign from chief pilot because he took care of HIS pilots, that is pathetic.

Listen, I liked most of the people that I flew with, and most were stand-up guys and gals. I have no respect, though, for those people that were scarfing up the open time for April 2003 as I and countless others were being FURLOUGHED. That is just wrong.

I wish you well. I truly hope that management there has changed, and that their business model comes to fruition. As I said in my post, there was some emotion wrapped into the post, but I was giving my opinion of MidEx. I was letting people know that the grass isn't always greener on the other side. I enjoyed my 5+ years in the Midwest family of airlines on the flying side, but when it comes down to management, forget it. There is no love lost.

 

[bluejuice787]

1800 RVR-

Thanks for the info. I don't think you sound bitter.

Are you at UPS now?

 

[pilotyip]

You will know in five years if you made the right move no matter what you do or do not do.

 

[1800 RVR]

Hey bluejuice,

Yes, I'm at UPS. I am very fortunate to have gotten here. I count my blessings every day.

I'm sorry that I did let emotion into my original post. Every company has its bad elements. Even UPS. The point that I was try to show is that if you have senority at Eagle, think long and hard about leaving that behind. Senority is the difference between getting furloughed and staying employed with a paycheck. To me, that's what counts. Not commuting and being based in your hometown is a HUGE plus. I just think that the industry is just too volatile to make this kind of a jump. If it was Airtran or Jetblue, I would say go in a heartbeat. Personally, I don't think MidEx is out of the woods by any stretch of the imagination. I think that there are too many ?'s still in their biz plan. For the sake of all my friends that are still there, I hope they make it. I hate to see fellow pilots get the shaft for managment decisions not to increase fares to a sustainable level. (oops, sorry, that emotion thing is coming out again).

Good luck in your decision. This is a tough one. If you have any questions, let me know.

 

[Taildragon]

Bluejuice,
Midwest had their 3Q earnings webcast, you can access it though their website. About us/ investors-to access it

 

[HowlinMadMurdoc]

Bluejuice,
Midwest had their 3Q earnings webcast, you can access it though their website. About us/ investors-to access it

Not exactly correct...

Midwest's Q3 Earnings Conference call is scheduled for Thursday, October 27th at 2pm ET.

HMM

 

[Paul R. Smith]

Live in base
no commute
bigger,more employable aircraft for the future.

For me, not to commute, fly from my home town or town of my residence. I would do it for the QOL alone. Plus, the money is the same or better and schedule will be better than AE, especially sleeping in your own master bedroom with no roomates. Just think about it, you go out for a long trip, come back and there is still milk and toilet paper in the house,. Priceless!

I say go for Midwest.
Fresh cookies and more money is where its at.:nuts:

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

This is a tough call. I would have advised said friend to be careful to who and when he applies. Midwest is still not out of the woods and I would advise anyone looking at them now to sit and wait until next year. But it all depends on your situation. The analyst expectations for Midwest are for losses next year but the debt to equity ratio looks good. If your friend turns down Midwest now he burns that bridge.

 

[Capt. Over]

to ME or not to ME....that is the question

Well, here goes...for what it's worth.

I was hired in 2001 and heard the same things everyone else heard. "We are doubling our pilot group and you'll most likely upgrade in 2 years." Guess what, this was all true at the time. One of my best friends upgraded in 18 months on the 9 and I would have been not far behind him had it not been for our industry taking a nasty turn 6 months after I was hired. We all know that the whole industry, no matter where you work, is a day to day venture. Having said that I can't see as how waiting until next year will do you any good. Hell, next year ain't gonna be any "tell tale" year. We won't see anything major changing for a LONG time. We could file chapter 11 tomorrow and, like everyone else in bankruptcy, still be flying for a long time after that.

As far as "taking a look around and seeing who is hiring" to make a decision as to where to go. News flash....there's like a handful of places hiring. If you were getting an interview at UPS or FedEx or Southwest fine, but for many folks the opportunites aren't out there very often. I personally don't think JetBlue is going to be any golden ticket. Those who say we aren't out of the woods yet, which I would agree with, need to realize that with very few exceptions the whole industry is camped out in those same "woods" and I think JetBlue is going to join the picnic sometime soon.

I do know that the money is not the same here as at Eagle. And as far as furlough protection, yeah you may have some better staying power at Eagle but I know lots of people flying at different regionals that are hearing the "F word" which, up until recently, was only heard at the mainline carriers. I just had three friends interview and get hired that are all currently Captains with high seniority at the regional I was at and they can't wait to start class. They just don't want to be stuck at a regional their whole career without giving it a shot. Who knows what the hell will happen at any carrier these days.

Having said all that, I was furloughed for 3.5 years and am back now. I love it here and have always been treated extraordinarily well by the entire company. Management problems? Sure, but show me a company that doesn't have those and I'll join you in Fantasy Land! It's a good place to work and I'll be here as long as they let me stay. Good luck with your decision, I just want to tell you, we're all counting on you.

 

[AA717driver]

WhatMeworry--You are getting wrong info on the flowthrough/flowback agreement.

The agreement is a four-party agreement between AA management, APA, Eagle management and Eagle ALPA. It is part of both parties' working agreements.

The flowthrough was intended to allow Eagle pilots to reserve a seniority number at AA when they upgraded at Eagle and eventually (I know one requirement is for a newhire class at AA to be held) move to AA. I doubt anyone at the time could have envisioned stagnation on the scale we are seeing at AA (couldn't happen here, right? ).

The flowback was meant to mitigate a small number of furloughs like in the early '90's. Again, no one intended for AE to absorb the huge number of furloughs we have seen in the past 5 years.

BUT, despite what was thought at the time, the agreement exists and has been interpreted to allow for as many flowbacks to Eagle as there are "new" captain seats available. Unfortunately for the Eagle guys, the flowbacks started at exactly the same time as a major expansion at Eagle. Yet another of those "harmonic convergences" in aviation that can really f-up your career.

On the issue of APA and AMR negotiating a JFJ deal without consulting Eagle, that is true. With the concessions of 2003 were coming down the pike, the APA nego. comm. was instructed to work out an agreement that would benefit ALL parties involved.

In Nov. 2002, APA knew the furloughs would continue and that the arbitrary "required qualifications" imposed by Eagle management would be met by those soon to be hitting the street so EA could no longer reject those without the "required" amount of flight time.

At this point, APA tried to contact the Eagle MEC with the intent of negotiating a "soft landing" for both groups (the interpretation of the flowback agreement by APA legal advisors indicated an unlimited number of flowbacks would be allowed).

The Eagle MEC refused to return APA's phone calls. In fact, it came down to Eagle telling APA they'd see them in court--"you won't get ANY flowbacks". One of the offers from APA was to limit the number of flowbacks to 125. I believe that's when the Eagle MEC made the above comment.

In any event, after that, APA was determined to secure as many flowback positions as possible and the rest is history. The issue went to a neutral arbitrator and he ruled in favor of APA.

The next big event is when the four-party agreement expires in the next year or two. Do those not on the property retain their seniority numbers after the agreement drops dead? Must Eagle keep the flowbacks in their positions despite having bottom of the list seniority numbers. It's going to be interesting.TC

P.S.--I was at most of the APA BOD meetings from Nov. '02 until the concessionary agreement was signed in Mar. '03. The rest of the time I got my info from a friend on the APA Nego. Comm. I'm sure many won't like my recitation of the events above but that's what I saw and what my friend has seen.

I have no dog in this fight. I didn't take the flowback and only one person I know is not counting the seconds until they can get out of Eagle.

And, yes, the TWA guys are getting their years of service for pay purposes. To a man, they regret that this had to happen and treat their FO's as professionals. If they don't, they get a blanket party in the parking lot. That's how WE do things.

 

[English]

TC, I'm usually on board with what you write, but, as the someone who was very close to a member of the Eagle MEC during that time, I think you have some of your facts skewed. Specifically the part about the Eagle MEC not returning phone calls.

Anyway, no matter which side of the fence one chooses (APA v AE ALPA), I think the original poster should jump ship. I've never met a single pilot who voluntarily left Eagle and wasn't in a better place.

 

[Captain Overs]

I've been here at Eagle for 6 years and I'm in the process of leaving to work overseas, I don't like to leave the country but I'll work anywhere just to get out of here(Eagle). Here are the reasons why I want to leave:
1. No upgrade
2. No money for FO ($30,000/year for a 6 year FO)
3. You have to fly with scAAbs
4. Unhappy co-workers (gate agents, FAs, rampers, etc.
5. The flight time I'm getting are not valuable to any major airlines. (SIC on a regional jet)
To the guy that post about Eagle going into "BANKRUPTSY" next year, you must know something I don't know, so tell us what it is.

He does know something we don't. A different spelling for bankruptcy.

 

[Swaayze]

We should meet sometime English..........