Midwest attacks Airtran

[Lear70]

so, Lear 70, it is not competition if it is not in the same Aircraft type, ???come on, It does not matter what type of Aircraft it is that is competing against you, seats in the market are seats...

OK, you're just not getting it, so I guess I'll have to explain more.

Northwest didn't operate that market to make a profit.

Northwest operated that market in an attempt to drive Midwest out of business.

The reason it didn't work is that it was never PLANNED to be a long-term competitive operation. It was believed you guys would cave LONG before they filed Bankruptcy. You didn't. They filed. Then they pulled out.

I mentioned the aircraft type to point out the aircraft/fare combination Northwest was using was a money-loser and they knew it would be that way going in.

WE at AirTran, however, can compete with you directly in the MKE because our CASM is so much lower. Not that I think a war is a good thing (it's not), but you were stating that Midwest somehow "beat" Northwest and AirTran out. You didn't. Northwest beat themselves, and we're INCREASING service.

Lear70, I believe you work in the airline industry, you should know that senority is everything. Even if you can make a few $ more at another place, you do not just give up seniority, life style, good contract and stabilty, maybe move to a new domicile, unless your company is going down the drain and they are shutting the doors.

Ummm... I believe you work in the industry as well, but that statement simply isn't true.

I worked at Pinnacle. I don't think they are going out of business anytime soon (in fact, they just bought another airline and announced a new codeshare with a bunch of new airplanes).

I took a pay CUT and a quality of life loss (short-term) to leave there to come to AirTran for a better long-term investment in my career earnings and eventual better quality of life.

Less than a year later, my quality of life is 10 times better than it was, and the money will come.

Thousands of pilots do that every year jumping from regionals to majors. By your comparison they should stay put?

Incidentally, a pilot leaving AirTran going to work for FedEx would make more than FOUR times the income than they would here over a career plus their pension which is in no danger of going away.

I think you're WAY off-base here.

But you seem to agree there is more stability at SWA or fedex vs. AAI. 2 years ago nobody would have considered AAI unstable, maybe it is a sign that things are not going to well.

Maybe it is a sign that you don't like AirTran. Your opinions are very openly biased.

FedEx is the epitome of stability. People will always need to ship packages, and their profit margins are EXTREMELY good.

SWA is arguably more stable, but with no argument in long-terms earnings potential being better than AAI by almost 3 times potential career earnings for 25+ year careers.

Maybe YOU'D be content to stay put making half what you could somewhere else with the same or better QOL.

I believe you're in the minority.

Nobody is running out the door...pleeeeez ...maybe real junior newhires that had iron's in the fire prior to AirTran .. ...who can blame em...good luck.. I just want to make it to 60..

Actually, almost ALL the guys who have left are senior to me, and I'm just over the 1,000 mark. Moved up just under 40 numbers in 3 months.

If you're not a Captain here and you get a call from FedEx or SWA, unless you just happen to live in ATL, you'd be crazy from a $$$ standpoint to stay.

 

[likeitis]

Wow Lear, so much inside info on NWA. When did you give up your seat on the board? Must have been because you were a Captain at Pinnacle that marketing let you in on all their brainstorming. Were all their ideas printed out on your dispatch release so you could approve? You know, after the airport condition report they would ask something like Captain xxxx, we are thinking of purchasing B787's. If you agree send a secret code 6918 through acars. If you disagree send secret code 1896. And if you like Kelly the best on American Idol send code 7369. Just giving you sh*t.

You guys just don't get it. Midwest is Tim's little love child. He isn't trying to hold onto his job. He told all the employees 3 years ago that he was planning on retiring in 3-4 years. If this FL deal didn't come along I would have been willing to bet anything that he was planning on retiring this summer. What this is really about to Tim is a little more money and some guarantees that MKE doesn't become a customer service nightmare like ATL. Show him that FL is going to send all customer contact employees through YX's customer service training and use YX's hiring principles for future customer contact employees. Tim really doesn't give a rats ass about the initial job loss. It is his ego you need to stroke. He doesn't want to be known as the CEO who sold the last real customer oriented airline and see his baby turned into a low care carrier.

 

[Eagle757shark]

On March 8th we will see how many shares have been tendered. It is a little childish to watch a CEO come out and make such childish statements. What is Tim afraid of? If he believes in his product and the shareholders do to, then March 8th will probable be his day. If the shareholders don't believe in his product and his business plan, then it will be AirTran's day on March 8th. Either way both companies will probable be ok. This is business and the shareholders will eventually decide.
I will say, this guy sounds a little nervous with his actions this week. But the shareholders will soon decide.

 

[instructordude]

If you're not a Captain here and you get a call from FedEx or SWA, unless you just happen to live in ATL, you'd be crazy from a $$$ standpoint to stay.[/quote]

It can go wither way too. I was talking to a couple of PHoenix based FedEx pilots who were both leaving for Airtran. It can happen.

 

[Lear70]

If you're not a Captain here and you get a call from FedEx or SWA, unless you just happen to live in ATL, you'd be crazy from a $$$ standpoint to stay.[/quote]

It can go wither way too. I was talking to a couple of PHoenix based FedEx pilots who were both leaving for Airtran. It can happen.

*cough* BULL********************!

Seriously though, I MIGHT believe that, IF they were both military guys with government pensions who were tired of cargo.

Can't imagine anyone else taking a 70-80% pay cut and making less than 1/3 over your career DELIBERATELY.

Most people who pass FedEx's testing procedure don't qualify in the "inanely stupid" category...

Wow Lear, so much inside info on NWA. When did you give up your seat on the board? Must have been because you were a Captain at Pinnacle that marketing let you in on all their brainstorming. Were all their ideas printed out on your dispatch release so you could approve? You know, after the airport condition report they would ask something like Captain xxxx, we are thinking of purchasing B787's. If you agree send a secret code 6918 through acars. If you disagree send secret code 1896. And if you like Kelly the best on American Idol send code 7369. Just giving you sh*t.

I don't watch American Idol. Actually, except for movies and BSG, I don't watch TV at all...

Thanks for the kudos,,, Seriously, NWA's strategy wasn't apparent until they exited the market. Everything is obvious once they played their hand.

Incidentally, I hate this Piece of sh*T server... post once, nothing shows. Wait 5 minutes, refresh, wait 5 minutes, refresh again, wait 5 minutes, repost and voila'... double post.

You'd think with all this ad revenue they could afford a REAL server.

 

[FlyWolf]

Thursday the 8th is the big day, it will be very interesting to know how many shares are tendered.

 

[metroplex]

Tim being childish....?It was forklift Joe who pissed everybody off with his out- off- line remarks...

 

[EX_CV580FR8Dawg]

wasnt it less than 1% ~38K shares when the last deadline came and passed?

 

[bestpilot]

If you're not a Captain here and you get a call from FedEx or SWA, unless you just happen to live in ATL, you'd be crazy from a $$$ standpoint to stay.

I aintz goin nowherez unlesss ole Ty Guy be moovin, cawz hee's dat crazy cat dat getz me da hook up wit all hiz left overs an stuff. Datz why I aintz evvver gonna be a Cappin at da Tranny. I getz too much luvvin from ole Ty Guys scraps an stuff.

Da Tranny iz da shizzy! Da Middies aintz knowin dat yet but purdy soon, I jus gotz ta be showin yoo luv, caws yoo dudes are like TRANNIES FROM ANUDDER GRANNIE!

AWWWWW YYEAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

 

[bestpilot]

Tim being childish....?It was forklift Joe who pissed everybody off with his out- off- line remarks...

Duuude! Ole Joe be makin all dem good bizznizz decissins. Ole Dougie Parker dun thoughtt dat ifn hee be tanked on da swill dat maybe he couldz be like smart like ole Joey.

Gesss not, I jus wunder if like ole Dougie had somma dat up close an personal in da slammer?

Yoo evver been in da Turkish prisn, ole Metroplexual dude?

 

[tico]

If you're not a Captain here and you get a call from FedEx or SWA, unless you just happen to live in ATL, you'd be crazy from a $$$ standpoint to stay.[/quote]

It can go wither way too. I was talking to a couple of PHoenix based FedEx pilots who were both leaving for Airtran. It can happen.

What you meant to say was that you were talking to a couple of Empire pilots that are phoenix based flying the caravans/f-27/atr-42.....There are no Phoenix based Fed Ex pilots

 

[WalterSobchak]

This little thing is spot on about the DFW operation. I was an agent in DFW when all that went down and it was business as usual for the 'Tran.

Just a little insight on AirTran ground ops for perspective.

AirTran loves to try to expand stations without hiring any extra help...then they run down and run off their best employees leaving only a handful of folks who are committed to the task at hand, all while having to pull the weight of the rest of the crappy employees you have left.

Then, when those few employees can't make performance goals and have essentially pissed off every potential customer in a market because of lack of staffing...AirTran essentially tells the employees they suck, pull all of their flights, and suddenly hire 5 warm bodies and new equipment that they could have used when they actually had the flights.

There were days during the summer that DFW went to 18 flights a day where we had 3 people on the ramp...4 including the lone bagroom agent getting his arse kicked...with a few 3-4 flight banks in the afternoons. Doesn't sound like much, but with summer loads, we literally spent 4-6 hours straight running around like chickens with our heads cut off 'til we just couldn't do it anymore. All because we took a little pride in getting the flights off on-time.

For several weeks, it wasn't a normal day if you weren't completely soaked in sweat and puking on the ramp by the last push. I lost 60 lbs. that summer from non-stop go, go, go...granted I needed to lose the weight, 60 lbs. in 2 and a half months just isn't healthy. I stuck it out because wanted to be in this industry and wanted to pay my dues and was trying to set myself up with a little more operations experience to get a dispatch job.

The customer service agents in the afternoons were left out to dry because the only good supervisors in the station worked mornings and the PM shift sups hid in an office all day because many of the passenger issues were just too much for them to handle. Tack that onto the fact that half the customer service agents had ZERO customer service skills and no knowledge of how an airline operates (I was regularly called from the ramp to explain ATL flow control to passengers because our gate agents were borderline retarded)...and the crap regularly hit the fan.

AirTran has some great folks working for them...the pilot group and dispatch are top notch (given the chance, I'd go to Orlando), and there are some great agents and F/A's there as well. Sadly, so many of those good agents and supervisors are passed over repeatedly for promotions in favor of people from the outside (most often times NWA rejects/"retirees"). Therefore, AirTran can't seem to keep the good ones and are left with folks with single-digit IQ's.

All in all, I can see where Midwest would be worried about AirTran making promises to expand MKE...only to throw up the white flag like they have in so many other expansion attempts. They shoot themselves in the foot by not providing the stations with the resources it needs to be successful and then wondering why it's not working.

 

[75M]

Walt...good post. It sounds an awful lot like Indy to me. Work you to death and have massive turnover. On another note, the promises being made by AAI to the people of Milwaukee sound a lot like the promises made by AMR to the people of Saint Louis during the TWA acquisition. The difference is I think AAI is more intent on growing MKE that AMR was about growing STL.

Incidentally, I hate this Piece of sh*T server... post once, nothing shows. Wait 5 minutes, refresh, wait 5 minutes, refresh again, wait 5 minutes, repost and voila'... double post.

You'd think with all this ad revenue they could afford a REAL server.

C'mon Lear...a good craftsman never blames his tools

 

[FlyWolf]

This little thing is spot on about the DFW operation. I was an agent in DFW when all that went down and it was business as usual for the 'Tran.

Just a little insight on AirTran ground ops for perspective.

AirTran loves to try to expand stations without hiring any extra help...then they run down and run off their best employees leaving only a handful of folks who are committed to the task at hand, all while having to pull the weight of the rest of the crappy employees you have left.

Then, when those few employees can't make performance goals and have essentially pissed off every potential customer in a market because of lack of staffing...AirTran essentially tells the employees they suck, pull all of their flights, and suddenly hire 5 warm bodies and new equipment that they could have used when they actually had the flights.

There were days during the summer that DFW went to 18 flights a day where we had 3 people on the ramp...4 including the lone bagroom agent getting his arse kicked...with a few 3-4 flight banks in the afternoons. Doesn't sound like much, but with summer loads, we literally spent 4-6 hours straight running around like chickens with our heads cut off 'til we just couldn't do it anymore. All because we took a little pride in getting the flights off on-time.

For several weeks, it wasn't a normal day if you weren't completely soaked in sweat and puking on the ramp by the last push. I lost 60 lbs. that summer from non-stop go, go, go...granted I needed to lose the weight, 60 lbs. in 2 and a half months just isn't healthy. I stuck it out because wanted to be in this industry and wanted to pay my dues and was trying to set myself up with a little more operations experience to get a dispatch job.

The customer service agents in the afternoons were left out to dry because the only good supervisors in the station worked mornings and the PM shift sups hid in an office all day because many of the passenger issues were just too much for them to handle. Tack that onto the fact that half the customer service agents had ZERO customer service skills and no knowledge of how an airline operates (I was regularly called from the ramp to explain ATL flow control to passengers because our gate agents were borderline retarded)...and the crap regularly hit the fan.

AirTran has some great folks working for them...the pilot group and dispatch are top notch (given the chance, I'd go to Orlando), and there are some great agents and F/A's there as well. Sadly, so many of those good agents and supervisors are passed over repeatedly for promotions in favor of people from the outside (most often times NWA rejects/"retirees"). Therefore, AirTran can't seem to keep the good ones and are left with folks with single-digit IQ's.

All in all, I can see where Midwest would be worried about AirTran making promises to expand MKE...only to throw up the white flag like they have in so many other expansion attempts. They shoot themselves in the foot by not providing the stations with the resources it needs to be successful and then wondering why it's not working.

I guess that explain this article: (Airtran Embraces new cost Metric)

http://www.thestreet.com/_yahoo/new...39750.html?cm_ven=YAHOO&cm_cat=FREE&cm_ite=NA

 

[WalterSobchak]

I guess that explain this article: (Airtran Embraces new cost Metric)

http://www.thestreet.com/_yahoo/new...39750.html?cm_ven=YAHOO&cm_cat=FREE&cm_ite=NA

I don't care if you're trying to impress the shareholders...I just don't understand how that's something to be proud of.

It's one thing the staff PROPERLY and not have alot of extra people standing around doing nothing. There's nothing wrong with hard work. It is another thing entirely to work your people to the bone, have them hate their jobs, and lose good people.

I was at DFW the other day and stopped to visit a few of my old AirTran coworkers. One of them told me something that kinda bothered me:

"Everytime we see someone who has left here, they just look so much more calm and at peace than they did when they were here."