Micro Manager Sir Captains.

[Flyer1015]

[deleted].....

 

[huncowboy]

I contributed to this post with just a little jab and you went and took the gloves off so allow me to retort. First, I DID work for Mesa a long long time ago when we were still flying nothing but 1900’s & a few dash 8’s. Before that, I threw bags, worked cargo, operations you name it. So I've been in the business for a while, whats your experience buddy?

Reread my post again, the one you call “terrible advice” and you’ll see nothing in there about me expecting my f/o’s to smile as I yell “yeehaa” punching holes in clouds flying non-SOP breaking every reg. Everything in there is old-school, from an era you know nothing about. I meant everything I wrote in the post you quoted and stand by it. Believe it or not there is a chain of command in the cockpit and you aint anywhere near the top. As an f/o, its your job to be a chameleon and adapt to whatever style or tone the CA sets. AGAIN, if you aren’t going to break a reg or become a brown spot in a mountain adapt, shut your mouth and stop making a big deal out of everything.

I tell you to look at yourself and suddenly you become defensive(look at your last post in all caps). Did I touch a nerve little boy? You are the perfect micro-managing right-seat captain. It all looks easy from the right seat doesn’t it. You get to sit there and watch your experienced captain make all the hard decisions and wonder “why is this idiot not doing it this way?” One day you will learn, but lets hope you never occupy the left seat for safety’s sake.

Now news for you; your summary is way off base, I obviously touched a nerve with you & got to watch you go into a full meltdown. Reread your own thread again, all of this is really about you. BTW, you still never answered my question, have you ever been a CA for a 121 carrier? Thanks for the laughs payaso.

Well... who took the gloves off? You posted one line, I did another. Then you had a full post of assumptions and _crap about me. Go to page one, it is still right there. With every single post you make an assumption or two. There is not one post that you wrote in this thread that does not have some kind of a statement about me all based on nothing else but your anger. This above is your very first post that actually has some sort of a discussion. Of course you did not fail to determine that I am not for the left seat... Bro. I was making comments like these when I was in highschool.

You have never asked me if I was a CA. You stated I wasn't. At least that one was correct. I wasn't. I walked away from an upgrade to take the job I have now, the job I wanted for the last two years. I took seniority over upgrade. Regardless though, I do not have the CA experience and I am aware that it is very valuable.
The problem is that everyone, including you, who got offended here didn't realize that I was not questioning the CA's authority or chain of command.

Since you’ve mentioned it. I have learned chain of command, and how to shut it in the military as an officer a long time ago while I was working alongside American troops. Probably around the time when you were throwing bags… But let me tell you something: Just because you shut your mouth, it doesn't always mean you are wrong! Just because you do your _sh_i_t in quiet it doesn't mean the guy who is above you is doing a great job. Good commanders lead, they hardly ever need to order! They also make it sure their communication is clear. That way the order might be executed the way it was meant. Airlines have SOPs for that reason. It is not because we can only do it this or the other way, but because we don't have to guess what the other guy is going to do next. It cuts down on explaining/questioning. When you are new on a plane you are hanging on to SOP because that is all you have. You know nothing about technique because technique = experience = time in type. You don't have that. Technique is mostly not thought in the sim. Now you fly with someone who does not explain what his techniques is, but expects you to do it anyways. Very soon you'll start second guessing everything you do because you are doing stuff that you are not, or not yet comfortable with. Why? Because you have not seen it done yet. Now this guy gets visibly upset and starts flying his technique through you. Not safe because it eliminates checking. I, as the FO, am still responsible for that flight it does not matter for the FAA that I only have so little time in the plane. My license is on it anytime yours is. If you keep me in the dark about what is next, then I can't double check what is going on. I am not part of the plan anymore, I am only another knob on the panel. You have just reduced your margin of safety. If you don't consider that counter productive as a Captain, than I have no clue what to tell you.

I told him I was new. "New FO" should send red flags to any healthy captain's mind. No problems here. But even w/o that PIC experience I can assure you the correct course of action is not to micro manage and leave SOP. Had he done it according to SOPs it would have been fine. But we were doing his own descent profiles, approach profiles, speed break policy, when to retard TLs in the flare, how to rotate, how much reverse to use etc... ALL different from everyone I have flown so far including IOE. How is this right? It isn’t. It is Bull and it will wear you down. So stop defending it.

 

[huncowboy]

You should drop to your knees and thank whatever higher power you answer to that you have one of these "micro manager sir captains" and not one of the captains that came from the generation before them. Try spending a 4 day trip with someone who sees everything you do as wrong, and makes sure you know it. Try sharing a cockpit with someone who sees you as nothing more than a low-life mouth breather, and makes sure you know it. Try flying with someone who gets 3 inches from your face and dresses you down at the top of his lungs for making an honest minor mistake, and he does it in front of the flight attendants AND the passengers. Try sitting next to someone who knows they are the Lord Almighty Himself in that left seat and will not accept any information to the contrary. Try to deal with someone who can and WILL get you fired in an instant if you screw up the slightest little bit, or have a contrary opinion, or if god forbid you correct them or otherwise "make them look bad."

Do that, and then tell me how awful those micro manager sir captains are.

Prince,

You know I am indeed glad I will not have to do that. But just because that was worse, it does not mean this is right. We all should look forward.

 

[huncowboy]

Allow me to sum up the last 4 pages ...


It's not what you say, but how you say it. A lot of old-timers have a problem with the last part.

That is all.

I think you are right. This would have been 2-3 page shorter had I done a proper, calm opening post. What can I say? I was very pissed, mostly venting. It did make me feel better. As a reward, now I can babysit my own 5 page creation. It is all good... it fits into fi well LOL.

 

[huncowboy]

I agree with you that micro-managing CAs are a pain in the ass, and I've had the misfortune of flying with one or two of them since coming to the Tran, but what you've described above isn't micro-managing, IMO. Configuring early burns extra fuel. Starting down early burns extra fuel. Slowing down too early messes up ATC's flow. These are legitimate gripes from the CA. Maybe he was a jerk outside of the above examples, but I don't think he was out of line to question you on these items.

PCL,

It is hard to explain 4 days in a few lines. It really was micro management. Taking a "start down now" comment is fine, but when you look at it in comparison to what other things we were doing it suddenly made no sense anymore.

I.e. he will chew you out for going down 2 min too soon, but he will taxi on 2 engine most the time when it is policy now to taxi on one as often as possible. He chew me out for burning the fuel that he already burned twice that leg. He will make you use full reverse on a long runway, because it is Airbus' policy, but then you will have to taxi with two engines in on idle for some time before you can shut one down. Wasted fuel again.

About the slowing down on downwind part. It is part of the profile to slow down and start to throw in flaps to get ready, for example, on a short approach. But he keeps me flying 250 instead and makes me use my gear almost all the time. It makes no sense. It also does not save fuel. Stuff like that... Like I said. I can't really paint you the whole picture.

 

[PCL_128]

About the slowing down on downwind part. It is part of the profile to slow down and start to throw in flaps to get ready, for example, on a short approach. But he keeps me flying 250 instead and makes me use my gear almost all the time. It makes no sense. It also does not save fuel. Stuff like that... Like I said. I can't really paint you the whole picture.

Based on the rest of your post, the guy sounds like a jerk, but I'm still going to disagree with you on this. Every airline has profiles for approaches that call for slowing down on downwind and throwing in some slats and flaps. But that isn't really expected to be uses on the line. That's sim stuff. Try that in Chicago or DTW before you've been told to slow below 250 and get ready for ATC to start screaming at you. You're expected to keep the speed up unless assigned something slower at least until turning base. Don't be one of the guys clogging up the airspace.

 

[:-)]

About this micro manager Captain issue........

Success in the right seat is tricky, you are NOT in charge, the Captain IS in charge. The aircraft IS his/her airplane. When you fly, you do so on the Captains signature.

Therefore, the first step in right seat flying is: to recognize the Captains needs. The Captain needs to know that you're there to help ensure his/her success and to make him/her look good. The Captain needs to know that you aren't going to do something outside of his/her comfort level.

The second step is to find a way to communicate your understanding of his/her needs to that Captain. Once the Captain begins to feel that you're his/her partner in his/her success, then the Captain will usually let you do as you please.

For your own mental health, never forget this stark reality: The Captain IS in command and you are NOT. To some, this reality is unpleasant, but it is what it is. The FO can either rage against the machine, or find a way to work with it. One way is easier than the other - take your pick.

The alternative would be unsafe and legally confusing. There must be one, and only one, person in command and the Captain needs to know that the FO will respect that when the chips are down.

If the FO expects the Captain to respect the FO's input and that input could be life or death in an emergency, the FO must develop and nuture the Captains respect.

Also, don't forget that the Captain may well be communicating his/her discontent toward the FO to the CP, the safety dept, or to ProStds. In these cases, the Captain is usually given the benefit of the doubt and you don't want your name on a list of troublemakers. Think about it and find a way to get along.

That is all for now!

 

[Benhuntn]

Hopefully he is a good pilot because he sucks as a writer.

 

[Caspian27]

The captain was thrusting you.......you ended up being his bitch. That's pretty funny.

That was the funniest thing I've read all day.