Mesaba

[flap operator]

ASMs are up ONLY because of longer stage lengths on the avro. Not because we're growing... make no mistake - we're still shrinking. We may have recalled all furloughs and have to hire now but it certianly isn't because we're growing. Longer stage lengths = more staff. Since we were understaffed with folks on the street and half the recalls not returning they have to catch up.

21g wasn't intended to take jobs away from anyone, nor was it intended for the reciprocity to be adheared to if the exact same situation was to take place. What happened in 1997 couldn't possibly happen 100% identical. What did happen though, as the LOA states is a net increase in jobs at one company while a net decrese in jobs at the other. Let's not also forget that this has been happening since 2001 - not just this year or last.

I guess we as two pilot groups will agree to disagree on this issue. Time to pick the next battle... like what struck work is when we inevitably go on strike.

FO

 

[DoinTime]

LOA 21 was intended to cover aircraft being moved (transactions) from one Airlink to another such as what happened in '97 and again last year with the B model Saabs moving from 9E to XJ. Shortly after LOA 21 was enacted XJ continued to receive new aircraft while 9E retired all of our J31's and some Saabs. 9E and XJ had about the same size pilot groups pre '97 but what happened in the years after was XJ growing to over 1000 pilots and 9E shrinking down to around 240. If LOA 21 worked as you contend the two pilot groups would have maintained the same size. Even now that 9E has taken deliveries of 60+ airplanes in the past 3 years XJ is still the larger pilot group by about 25% and will continue to be the larger group for another year and a half. Maybe then, when we are at about the same size again, we will talk LOA 21.

ASMs are up ONLY because of longer stage lengths on the avro. Not because we're growing... make no mistake - we're still shrinking. We may have recalled all furloughs and have to hire now but it certianly isn't because we're growing. Longer stage lengths = more staff. Since we were understaffed with folks on the street and half the recalls not returning they have to catch up.

ASM's directly relate to the amount of work that is needed to be done by your pilot group. Your ASM's have been stable for the past three years. I never said you are growing but you certainly aren't shrinking. You said it yourself that you were understaffed, this relates to fewer pilot jobs and perceived shrinking but LOA 21 wasn't meant to compensate for poor management decisions.

 

[sf3boy]

Mesaba is shrinking. We have lost more airplanes than we have gained. This means that we have retired more A models with more scheduled for this fall than we have gained (straight B's from 9E). There are less pilots on the seniority list than there were one year ago and two years ago. But this is all irrelevant.

Northwest decides who will grow and when and how. Mesaba is in talks now and Pinnacle will receive the growth to apply the pressure to us. When Pinnacle is in negotiations, Mesaba will most likely be the heir of good fortunes handed down from NWA.

From what I can tell, most of the 9E guys and gals are a good group of folks. I know their is a little strain on the relationship due to what is going on, but all the 9E people will have XJ pilots' support when it is their turn for another round of contract negotiations.

 

[CWASaab]

I want to start this by letting you know that I truly appreciate and welcome your support. Thank you.

As Flap Operator alluded too, there is little chance we are going to change each others minds, and we are probably going to have to agree to disagree, but I do have a response to your post...

Yet when XJ posted their capacity statistics for May they had a 3.1% INCREASE in ASM's year over year. Where is this shrinking you are talking about???? 9E has also closed domiciles, displaced senior captains out of their chosen domicile, and displaced captains to fo's all in the same timeframe that XJ pilots have had to endure.

Want the real numbers, the facts? Lets turn to the latest 10-K filing from Mesaba Holdings and operations numbers from Mesaba Airlines...
(in thousands)
Fiscal year ASMs
2001 2,948,239
2002 2,739,946
2003 2,822,140

So there you have it, the FACTS, as of the end of march 2003, the end of our fiscal year, we were still operating more than 5% below our 2001 numbers, and in 2002 when we had pilots on furlough we were more than 7% below those numbers. The monthly reports show a positve trend, but not the whole picture, unless you go far enough back. And in the future it is less than certain that our numbers will go up, as we return A model Saabs, that will not be replaced by CRJs in the near future. That is the shrinking I was talking about.

For fun lets look at what has happened at 9E since NOV 2001 (while the rest of us were 'suffering the effects of sept 11' as management loves to say....
Percent increase year-over-year in ASMs (the compound effect is very impressive){this is data is taken from www.nwairlink.com}
2001
Nov 47.8
Dec 64.4
2002
Jan 61.7
Feb 77.3
Mar not found
Apr 61.7
May 46.2
Jun 37.9
Jul 34.7
Aug 35.5
Sep not found
Oct 47.2
Nov 47.9
Dec 35.1
2003
Jan not found
Feb not found
Mar 38.1
Apr not found
May 64.0

With out spending time as a net detective and trying to find the missing numbers the point is still pretty clear. The decrease in size of the numbers in late 2002 accounts for the saab flying, what a shame, only 34.7% percent growth.

ASM's directly relate to the amount of work that is needed to be done by your pilot group. Your ASM's have been stable for the past three years. I never said you are growing but you certainly aren't shrinking.

Actually your post directly insinuated growth (the whoping 3%), you even placed the word increase in bold type, but in reality the ASM numbers (the facts) do show that we shrunk, and that we are still not at our pre-Sep 2001 levels. While 9E has continued to grow at exceptional rates. Sounds like a net change in pilot positions to me.

If you think brotherhood means rolling over and offering a seniority grab or captains seats over your unfortunate situation that nowhere near resembles what went down in '97 you are crazy

No offense, but your whole post proves my point. We had sympathy for your unfortunate situation in '97 and offered help to our brothers, yet now you hide behind a defininition of the word 'transaction'. Seems to me the only transaction that took place in '97 between 9E and XJ was XJ's offer to take pilots with seniority, including into the left seat. The routes and airplanes were not yours to transact with us, the leases and routes are controlled by NWA, and they were reassigned to us by NWA.

And unless I missed it that word, transaction, isn't defind in the LOA at all. And the unwillingness to consider a broarder scope to the intentions of the LOA highlights the point I am driving toward. In my opinon you are behaving like management, hiding behind literal definitions and leagalese, missing the broader strokes of the language and its intentions, because it suits you to do so, and you are only looking out for yourselves, rather than lessoning the impact of NWA whipsaw.

And yeah, I guess doing what we did in '97 is a way to demonstrate botherhood, and your doing the same would have demonstrated yours. Only I would not call it a seniority grab as I doubt anyone whose job was secure here would have transferred, just the very junior and furloughed. I am sure there were folks here who thought us taking captains and FOs with seniority was crazy, luckily we did the right thing anyway.

I guess you prefer that your mother company continue to loose market share to other carriers serving CWA with RJ's

No, actually I would prefer that NWA have the flexibility to always assign the right aircraft to the market based on current conditions, without detrement to any pilot group. The only way to do that would be one list, but the whipsaw works too well for NWA and we won't ever see one list. So instead I would hope that in our red-tail brotherhood we find ways to minimize the wedges driven between us by NWA. We tried in '97.

And talk about insult, instead of LOA 21, you offer 'preferential hiring' where anyone who wanted to could come over and start over, gee thanks, I guess. Can you blame anyone for that, really? What would you have done, given up your time at XJ for 9E where the pay might have been a little better (well maybe not since you would have had to start over), but the work rules still do not compare, or look to another carrier like ARW, CMR or someone else with a better contract and (at the time) a still promising future? Oh, and those MECs, who we are not so closely associated with and who do not work for the same unkind folks in Eagan as we all do set up preferential interviews/hiring for our pilots as well.

As far as base closings at 9E go, yeah, I guess that is what happens when NWA buys the company, installs new management and those new leaders decide to end out-station basing. Bases close. And the bases that closed in the North, due to the transfer of flying, those folks were forced out, but they were also given the chance to come to XJ with seniority.

Your MEC has let this issue idle because it is a dead end road

It is only a dead end because it takes two to tango and we have an unwilling dance partner. I am pretty sure we have a commitee to look into this LOA that is still active. Oh, and our MEC is kind of busy with negotiations, and management's continued disregard for our working agreement and the rlb negotiation process.

With the recall of all of our pilots and impending hiring, this issue will fade, and I would be surprised if anything ever comes of the LOA, ever. I do know however that I am not the only pilot at XJ that feels slighted by the actions of our bothers at 9E. Taking emotion out of the situation would be great, but it is unrealistic, and yeah, I believe in srtiving for the truth also, even to the point of doing a little research to find the truth.

Despite all this disagreement over LOA 21 I am greateful for the support you and others have offered. I look forward to sharing the picket lines with you. Hopefully just the informational, but if need be during the strike. Thank you. And i second what SF3Boy said, you will have my support when the tables are turned.

 

[cathal]

Here's my 2 cents. We're going to settle our contract on day 29 of the 30 day cooling off period. We'll get the high points of Air Wisconsin and Comair's contracts. Our management is in this for themselves. They don't care if their employees can earn a living while making them rich. The pilots, with the exception of a few DTW Avro capt. tarts, are freakin' awesome. As soon as we have our contract, NWA and Pinnacle will be starting their talks. Guess Who's going to be whipsawed against who? While based in MEM, I knew quite a few Pinnacle folks, and they've told me they can see the writing on the wall. They're going to take it where the sun don't shine, and they've hired a number of people who will thank them for it. And, finally, if there's a place that has a chance at a true "one list," this is it. The pilots at these places know how to stick together at all costs.
We're hiring. Apply here, by all means. Things are worse at other places, and this is a great place to have a number at right now. Long term, we'll be better off than most, like we always have been. Short term, it could be tough, but if you stick it out like you have so far, and don't want to sit next to a scab or someone who bought their job, you'll be happier here than most other places.
p.s. to my fellow xj er's, I really miss the autothrottles

 

[flap operator]

Doin' time -

As far as none of the furloughs at XJ looking into 9E... many of the furloughs sent their resumes to our MEC office, who in turn forwarded them to Wake, who in turn forwarded them to HR in MEM. 3-4 months after these transactions (hmmm...) took place they got calls. Not all of them interviewed because they found other work in the stretch of months. The ones that didn't interviewed, but decided to not make the move, for various reasons. So Wakes great efforts were not lost and he shouldn't feel offended or however you described it.

Hope you're enjoying the backdoor NW deal and the Gulfstream deal. They're brotherhood for you...

When you guys come picket with us, just don't forget to wear your ties, hats and uniform. BTW - nice new hat pins for you I noticed! =)

FO

 

[justmeinmsp]

You know, I was actually thinking about buying a hat ( haven't had one since I started). Then....the new hat pin came out, no thanks. Good luck guys.

 

[DoinTime]

As far as none of the furloughs at XJ looking into 9E... many of the furloughs sent their resumes to our MEC office, who in turn forwarded them to Wake, who in turn forwarded them to HR in MEM. 3-4 months after these transactions (hmmm...) took place they got calls.

You guys should know as well as anyone that Union-Company negotiations do not happen overnight. Our company had no interest in hiring any of your guys. Why would they help us show solidarity? It took a great deal of time and effort on the part of our MEC chairman to arrange this deal because you guys said you wanted it. It was a slap in the face when nobody showed any interest. Why would a reciprocal of LOA 21 be any different?

Hope you're enjoying the backdoor NW deal and the Gulfstream deal. They're brotherhood for you...

Neither our MEC, or our company had any role in brokering either of these deals. They were both imposed upon us by mainline NW. Its great to have all these guys and I'm sure our MEC would have pulled hard to get the NW furloughs aboard if it would have been necessary. You can bet than when the tables have turned and you guys are doing significant hiring that you will have these same deals imposed upon you whether you want them or not.

 

[flap operator]

Doin Time -

You must have missed the part in my post where it said that the XJ furloughees indeed showed interest. Many of them interviewed - nobody accepted the positions. The fact that they compiled a resume and sent it through the chain and interviewed shows interest to me. They probably realized they'd be in for it all over again if they joined you all at PCL. I think maybe Wake needs to not have taken it so personally, he of all people, as an MEC member ought to have thick enough skin.

See you on the picket line...


FO

 

[FO for life]

as far as the hiring goes - according to the internal posting, management will first be hiring from within. i also spoke with a chief pilot the other day prior to my trip and he told me that he had a stack of resumes that he sent up to MSP and e-mailed a few resumes up as well for consideration - all from current employees outside of the flight department. he also was instructed to call all of the ex-interns and try to hire them first. we may be doing some hiring for the July and August classes but there may not be many hired from outside the company (at least that's the feeling i got)

p.s. Cathal, isn't CTOT enough of an autothrottle - it's all i've known for 3 years and works fairly well