OneTuffGuy
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Mesa upgrades
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3585CuRRenT
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Get in touch with [email protected]...they're hiring!
Don't be a sell out
Here is yet another reason why JO and his cronies can continue to reduce our profession to the poor state we find ourselves in.
Sled why not ask yourself this simple question
Can you look at yourself in the mirror every day and be proud to have taken the only job that was out there right now?
Why not wait until something comes around with class and a pilot group with big balls.
DONT BE A SELLOUT
Here is yet another reason why JO and his cronies can continue to reduce our profession to the poor state we find ourselves in.
Sled why not ask yourself this simple question
Can you look at yourself in the mirror every day and be proud to have taken the only job that was out there right now?
Why not wait until something comes around with class and a pilot group with big balls.
DONT BE A SELLOUT
2
210FR8DOG
alright you terdheads, I'm sick of this crap. I'm in the same position as sled only with more hours. Sent resumes to every Tom, Dick and Harry-A$$ (except Pinnacle, don't get me started)airline as soon as I got 200 multi.(in April) update by faxing, e-mailing and snail mail every 100 hours. NO RESPONSES FROM ANYONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So am I suppose to keep flyin these 27,000 hour Barons for 20k with my ankles and knees burnin and my fingers and ears froze cause the **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** heater works great under the panel but its so drafty you have to wear a snow suit? And all of this at 3am!! $300 bucks a month to send my daughter home to see her real mom cause I got NO FLIGHT BENEFITS other than the joy of landing in LUK every night. You little frick and fracks have all the answers don't you!! I know, I'll just wait here til ASA comes callin' next week! YEAH RIGHT!! Oh, did I mention a 10-year captain at Comair walked my resume in there? That was 2 months ago. Still waiting. "Air Wisconsin is hiring with as little as 1500 hours" hahahahah if your frickin' dad works there and you know at least 3 other pilots with LORs!! "don't use a regional to gain experience for another regional" Why the hell not? Do you think they'll be impressed with 3000 hours of Baron time? SURE THEY WILL!! Whatever. Yeah, I'll just keep flyin freight for a few more years and wait for my dream airline to come callin'. Or I could try to go to Mesa, fly some turbine equipment for the same 20k I'm making anyway, get some 121 experience and keep applying at ASA or wherever. Does anyone start out as a manager just because they want to real bad? NO!!! First you make crew leader, then assistant manager, then manager. "do whatever it takes to get on with a company you can be proud of" You mean like getting some 121/turbine time to be competitive? If you wise guys have a better idea for a freight dog to make it happen, I'm all ears. Until then I'll see you at Mesa!!!!(If I get the interview and pass it) It pisses me off all the simplistic answers everyone has from the outside. Mostly from people who are already flying jets and have a little leverage to use on a resume. I'm done. UUUUUUUGGGGGGHHHH!!!!!!!
yufhdb
Very nice. I am sure a lot of these guys have not done the time like you have heck some of them are probably paid for training. How many of you were cfi's prior to ......They can't mind their own business. You go!!!!!!!!!!!Some of these guys probably have not had to see some of these operations that are way worse than mesa will ever be but they don't know cause if they did...they would keep quiet. Go fr8do!!!g
Very nice. I am sure a lot of these guys have not done the time like you have heck some of them are probably paid for training. How many of you were cfi's prior to ......They can't mind their own business. You go!!!!!!!!!!!Some of these guys probably have not had to see some of these operations that are way worse than mesa will ever be but they don't know cause if they did...they would keep quiet. Go fr8do!!!g
acaTerry
SAPM
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2001
- Posts
- 2,393
The Mesa Pilots are not your problem. Never have been, never will be.
Yes, Mesa IS the problem. Like it or not, Mesa is a CANCER and you are a cancer cell.
but yet an INCREASE for us post 9-11)
Meager increase in salary + a lower monthly (ooooh, excuse me! BID gaurantee--2 day difference = pathetic excuse to try to sell as a pay increase. At least thats how it was explained to me by a Mesa pilot.
BTW, your BE1900 CA max pay is lower than a several year FO at CMR. Way to negotiaite pal.....
I think Mr. Skeen is leading you on a pipe dream.
I'd rather be part of a pipe dream than a living nightmare.....read that Mesa takeover.
SO, let's ride this thing out, let's stick together as PILOTS regardless of who we work for, and work to improve our profession as a WHOLE....
Oh, now after all you have to say to those of us who think a pilot is worth more than an a$$ pounding with a little sand sprinkled on......now you want to be everyones buddy and leader. Go away and climb back in bed with JO. How dare you chew us out and then come on talking about IMPROVING the profession. After you ruined it. Can you possibly be more hypocritical?
Yes, Mesa IS the problem. Like it or not, Mesa is a CANCER and you are a cancer cell.
but yet an INCREASE for us post 9-11)
Meager increase in salary + a lower monthly (ooooh, excuse me! BID gaurantee--2 day difference = pathetic excuse to try to sell as a pay increase. At least thats how it was explained to me by a Mesa pilot.
BTW, your BE1900 CA max pay is lower than a several year FO at CMR. Way to negotiaite pal.....
I think Mr. Skeen is leading you on a pipe dream.
I'd rather be part of a pipe dream than a living nightmare.....read that Mesa takeover.
SO, let's ride this thing out, let's stick together as PILOTS regardless of who we work for, and work to improve our profession as a WHOLE....
Oh, now after all you have to say to those of us who think a pilot is worth more than an a$$ pounding with a little sand sprinkled on......now you want to be everyones buddy and leader. Go away and climb back in bed with JO. How dare you chew us out and then come on talking about IMPROVING the profession. After you ruined it. Can you possibly be more hypocritical?
Yes, some of us have "PAID OUR DUES". How about 2000 hours of dual given? How about being told "If you won't do it, we can always get somebody else". How about hiring minimums of 2000 hours total and 500 multi. Yea I know, "I've walked 15 miles through blowing snow, without any shoes on, to go to school".
Aviation is cyclical, at certain times, it is easier to get a job. That is the nature of the industry. When there is a glut of pilots, everybodies hiring minimums go up and the snakes roll out their "Neat Little cost reduction programs" (Like pay for training, training contracts, aviation "Flight Academies"). I would much rather work with somebody who had the "INTEGRITY" to stick out a lower paying position, than to work with some one who compromised their values in order to get "Turbine Time". Life is hard- once you get past that, it gets easier. Don't sell yourself short. Maintain your integrity and don't compromise your values or your standards. In the end, You will feel better for it.
Aviation is cyclical, at certain times, it is easier to get a job. That is the nature of the industry. When there is a glut of pilots, everybodies hiring minimums go up and the snakes roll out their "Neat Little cost reduction programs" (Like pay for training, training contracts, aviation "Flight Academies"). I would much rather work with somebody who had the "INTEGRITY" to stick out a lower paying position, than to work with some one who compromised their values in order to get "Turbine Time". Life is hard- once you get past that, it gets easier. Don't sell yourself short. Maintain your integrity and don't compromise your values or your standards. In the end, You will feel better for it.
ChinaClipper
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 4, 2002
- Posts
- 460
Gonna P my pants
Good god, the high and mighty speak. Usually coming from a guy who thinks "selling out" and "lowering the Bar" doesn't include flying RJ's to replace a 737 or similar mainline A/C. Even funnier is a guy who PROBABLY BOUGHT HIS JOB to begin with. PFT ho's telling others to be brave..... Ki$$ my A$$! Sell out, you gotta be kidding....BTW Where is the "gotta hold the line" BS? Did PSA sell out to get jets where F28's/100's and 732 once flew?????
Good god, the high and mighty speak. Usually coming from a guy who thinks "selling out" and "lowering the Bar" doesn't include flying RJ's to replace a 737 or similar mainline A/C. Even funnier is a guy who PROBABLY BOUGHT HIS JOB to begin with. PFT ho's telling others to be brave..... Ki$$ my A$$! Sell out, you gotta be kidding....BTW Where is the "gotta hold the line" BS? Did PSA sell out to get jets where F28's/100's and 732 once flew?????
Trolling for flamers 'Eh,
If your gonna "Walk the Walk" you had better be able to back it. Have you ever quit a job for safety reasons? Have you ever been involved in a Unionization effort? Have you ever volunteered for your union? How many funerals have you gone to? How many times have you been merged (And yes I'm talking about seniority integration without the "Whipsaw")? How many times have you refused an airplane? Have you ever called in "Fatigued"?
The problem with aviation is that we tend to prostitue ourselves in order to be "Competitive". Some of us won't play that game. If you plan on "Getting the BIG job" by putting in your time at some second rate carrier- that is up to you. The state of the economy and the glut of pilots looking for jobs right now probably means that the regional airline you are currently with is where you're gonna' be for a while. With that reality, Shouldn't you actually be working to "Improve" your airline, not only for yourself but also for the folks who come through the door behind you?
Personally, I would rather work for a place that I choose based upon it's merits. You talk about the "Lowering of the bar" with respect to main line carriers. In case you have been living in a cave somewhere- The business model has changed! The days of operating 737 with 25 people on board are GONE, bye-bye, never to come back. It is called "Economic Darwinism" and if you don't adapt, you're gone. In case you missed it somewhere, I'll explain it, even though it hurts: Low Cost Carriers making money hand over fist- Legacy carriers bleeding red ink all over the place. Low cost carrier sets the fares and makes money vs Legacy carrier matching low cost and loseing money. Legacy carriers have to borrow money at extremely high interest rates (And God only knows how they will pay it back) in order to keep business afloat. Low cost carrier cash rich. I'll let you figure out the rest but remember one thing- if you are providing feed for one of the legacy carriers, your fortunes rise or fall with that carrier.
Good luck, I wish the best to you in your aviation carreer.
If your gonna "Walk the Walk" you had better be able to back it. Have you ever quit a job for safety reasons? Have you ever been involved in a Unionization effort? Have you ever volunteered for your union? How many funerals have you gone to? How many times have you been merged (And yes I'm talking about seniority integration without the "Whipsaw")? How many times have you refused an airplane? Have you ever called in "Fatigued"?
The problem with aviation is that we tend to prostitue ourselves in order to be "Competitive". Some of us won't play that game. If you plan on "Getting the BIG job" by putting in your time at some second rate carrier- that is up to you. The state of the economy and the glut of pilots looking for jobs right now probably means that the regional airline you are currently with is where you're gonna' be for a while. With that reality, Shouldn't you actually be working to "Improve" your airline, not only for yourself but also for the folks who come through the door behind you?
Personally, I would rather work for a place that I choose based upon it's merits. You talk about the "Lowering of the bar" with respect to main line carriers. In case you have been living in a cave somewhere- The business model has changed! The days of operating 737 with 25 people on board are GONE, bye-bye, never to come back. It is called "Economic Darwinism" and if you don't adapt, you're gone. In case you missed it somewhere, I'll explain it, even though it hurts: Low Cost Carriers making money hand over fist- Legacy carriers bleeding red ink all over the place. Low cost carrier sets the fares and makes money vs Legacy carrier matching low cost and loseing money. Legacy carriers have to borrow money at extremely high interest rates (And God only knows how they will pay it back) in order to keep business afloat. Low cost carrier cash rich. I'll let you figure out the rest but remember one thing- if you are providing feed for one of the legacy carriers, your fortunes rise or fall with that carrier.
Good luck, I wish the best to you in your aviation carreer.
Ok, so I'm curious.
What should a guy who has 2000 total and 500 multi do? Continue instructing for $15k/year with no pay increase, being paid for 6 hours out of every 12 at the airport, no medical benefits, no vacation, building piston time after 3 years of already doing this in survival mode? Let's not even mention the pay reduction due to the oncoming winter weather.
Or go to Mesa, who is apparently the only regional to show interest in the last 2 years, get a pay raise, fly larger equipment, get medical benefits and vacation while gaining part 121 experience? It's easy to call Mesa the bottom when you're above it. The truth is, there's a whole bottom below even Mesa and climbing out of it is not based on experience.
Yes, there are better regionals out there hiring, but what if they're not calling?
Why should someone not try to improve their working conditions? To many instructors, Mesa looks like an improvement.
Many of you calling Mesa bad, already have had your lucky break to move up. What about the rest of us that have been waiting it out? What alternatives would you suggest? I know people who have sent resumes into every place they can think of, including many alternatives you might suggest. What would you tell them if all those "better" places don't call back and Mesa does?
What would you tell someone who is at the true bottom rung, has bills to pay, and Mesa calls?
What should a guy who has 2000 total and 500 multi do? Continue instructing for $15k/year with no pay increase, being paid for 6 hours out of every 12 at the airport, no medical benefits, no vacation, building piston time after 3 years of already doing this in survival mode? Let's not even mention the pay reduction due to the oncoming winter weather.
Or go to Mesa, who is apparently the only regional to show interest in the last 2 years, get a pay raise, fly larger equipment, get medical benefits and vacation while gaining part 121 experience? It's easy to call Mesa the bottom when you're above it. The truth is, there's a whole bottom below even Mesa and climbing out of it is not based on experience.
Yes, there are better regionals out there hiring, but what if they're not calling?
Why should someone not try to improve their working conditions? To many instructors, Mesa looks like an improvement.
Many of you calling Mesa bad, already have had your lucky break to move up. What about the rest of us that have been waiting it out? What alternatives would you suggest? I know people who have sent resumes into every place they can think of, including many alternatives you might suggest. What would you tell them if all those "better" places don't call back and Mesa does?
What would you tell someone who is at the true bottom rung, has bills to pay, and Mesa calls?
Last edited:
acaTerry
SAPM
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2001
- Posts
- 2,393
What should I a guy who has 2000 total and 500 multi do? Continue instructing for $15k/year with no pay increase, being paid for 6 hours out of every 12 at the airport, no medical benefits, no vacation, building piston time after 3 years of already doing this in survival mode? Let's not even mention the pay reduction due to the oncoming winter weather.
See DEVO's post.....the message is clear.
"Maturity is the ability to accept delayed gratification"
See DEVO's post.....the message is clear.
"Maturity is the ability to accept delayed gratification"
IMO in one way, I for one am thankful for Mesa and "Johnny smooth talk".
Before this pilot group willingly hopped in the sack with the new Lorenzo, our pilot group was the "goat" of the industry.
AMR was successful in making our field of grass the driest and worst tasting of all the fields that regional pilots eat out of.
Smooth boy has convinced this group to eat the dirt we left behind for the promise of tearing down as many fences as he can to let them feed on other groups left over dirt.
He's publicly pledged to become THE lowest cost provider of regional feed in the U.S. and seems to have every regional carriers pilots are in his sights. The Mesa pilots simply gave him the ammo for his guns...and forever hoisted themselves to the highest pinnicle in the airline pilots "hall of shame".
I doubt ANYONE will ever climb higher (lower).
Our 16-year CBA looks pretty darn good caompared to their embarassing garbage - and that's not something to be proud of.
You wan't to go to Mesa ?
Anyone who would want to, deserves it.
I think they aren't even worth the contract they're working under now.
It should be less.
Before this pilot group willingly hopped in the sack with the new Lorenzo, our pilot group was the "goat" of the industry.
AMR was successful in making our field of grass the driest and worst tasting of all the fields that regional pilots eat out of.
Smooth boy has convinced this group to eat the dirt we left behind for the promise of tearing down as many fences as he can to let them feed on other groups left over dirt.
He's publicly pledged to become THE lowest cost provider of regional feed in the U.S. and seems to have every regional carriers pilots are in his sights. The Mesa pilots simply gave him the ammo for his guns...and forever hoisted themselves to the highest pinnicle in the airline pilots "hall of shame".
I doubt ANYONE will ever climb higher (lower).
Our 16-year CBA looks pretty darn good caompared to their embarassing garbage - and that's not something to be proud of.
You wan't to go to Mesa ?
Anyone who would want to, deserves it.
I think they aren't even worth the contract they're working under now.
It should be less.
Last edited:
WhiteCloud
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2002
- Posts
- 1,012
taloft said:
I repectfully disagree with many who say you shouldn't take a job at MESA. You need the turbine and line experience to be considered for the better jobs. Sure, you might run into someone on a hiring board that has a problem with MESA pilots. Without the experience you won't get to the board in the first place. We need to change the industry from within and not place the burden on new hire pilots.
2
210FR8DOG
Taloft, good question. Put in a much more diplomatic fashion than my ranting and raving post.
I rest my case: ACATerry, Devo, eaglefly all giving us some good advice.........FROM THE COCKPIT OF A JET!!!!!!!! And I didn't even go back to the beginning of the thread. That was just responses from my whining post above!!
Would anyone like to come fly this Baron for me for a few more years and keep up that "hold to your values" talk? I didn't think so.
My dad doesn't fly for an airline(he doesn't even fly) I don't know anyone at any airline. When I feel like there might be a prayer of a miniscule chance of getting a call from a better carrier, I'll bypass Mesa. Waiting for the phone to ring............................................................................................................................................................................................................
I rest my case: ACATerry, Devo, eaglefly all giving us some good advice.........FROM THE COCKPIT OF A JET!!!!!!!! And I didn't even go back to the beginning of the thread. That was just responses from my whining post above!!
Would anyone like to come fly this Baron for me for a few more years and keep up that "hold to your values" talk? I didn't think so.
My dad doesn't fly for an airline(he doesn't even fly) I don't know anyone at any airline. When I feel like there might be a prayer of a miniscule chance of getting a call from a better carrier, I'll bypass Mesa. Waiting for the phone to ring............................................................................................................................................................................................................
acaTerry
SAPM
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2001
- Posts
- 2,393
I repectfully disagree with many who say you shouldn't take a job at MESA. You need the turbine and line experience to be considered for the better jobs.
Keep it up and there will BE NO BETTER JOBS.
I rest my case: ACATerry, Devo, eaglefly all giving us some good advice.........FROM THE COCKPIT OF A JET!!!!!!!!
Nice try pal! We put ungodly amounts of prop time to do any jet flying. IOW.....we earned it. Did not whore out and make anything better an impossibility because we "wanted a jet" or "thought we deserved it".
Boo Frickety Hoo!
Keep it up and there will BE NO BETTER JOBS.
I rest my case: ACATerry, Devo, eaglefly all giving us some good advice.........FROM THE COCKPIT OF A JET!!!!!!!!
Nice try pal! We put ungodly amounts of prop time to do any jet flying. IOW.....we earned it. Did not whore out and make anything better an impossibility because we "wanted a jet" or "thought we deserved it".
Boo Frickety Hoo!
2
210FR8DOG
ACATerry,
Seriously, I respect your position. It's not like I'm all pumped about trying to fly for the lowest paying regional out there. But my career, like many others, is stagnant. I will make 20k for the rest of my life here. A future interview board will ask, "why didn't you try to move on to some bigger/turbine equipment?" Will they see this as a lack of motivation which will affect their decision to hire me? I think so. If I at least get some turbine time I will have the experience/leverage/position to TRY to raise the bar from the inside. I can't change anything from the outside looking in while all the little San Whiners get in line in front of me because I'm holding out for what I deserve. Air Wisky hires from Great Lakes, Comair likes only former military or Academy grads, Pinnacle will only take rich little snots that can go a few months with no job. I'm not rich and my family deserves to at least eat. ASA, well their just not hiring and when they do, it will be about 100 or 200 which are either already in the pool or they have already selected. I'm running out of options here.
This brings up a question which was discussed on a talk radio show I listen to. Americans in gereral are so caught up in getting paid what they "deserve" that a lot of workers/labor unions are pricing themselves right out of a job. Just watch CNN for a while and you'll hear about factories closing and opening up shop overseas for pennies on the dollar as far as labor cost. It's got to be a lot cheaper to justify building it, then shipping it back to ourselves to sell. I'm not saying your wrong, man. But we all need to dig real deep to find out what it is we really "deserve". Are we just trying to dig ourselves out of the credit card epedimic and the "got to have it NOW" disease facing America? We shouldn't blame a piss-poor paying airline because we can't control our own spending. I'm not saying "you" either, I'm just speaking in general terms. I hate bringing this up, but you still gotta go back to the supply/demand debate. When it gets bad enough, people will get out and equilibrium(sp?) will be established.
Once again, I don't know all the answers, I'm just making the best decision based on the factors in MY life.
Tailwinds
PS- Oh yeah, just found out my job here will end in less than a year, there's some fuel for the fire that will GREATLY affect this industry in the next year. All the little check haulers out on the street now, looking for a job with no jet time. There's a gloomy picture for ya.
Seriously, I respect your position. It's not like I'm all pumped about trying to fly for the lowest paying regional out there. But my career, like many others, is stagnant. I will make 20k for the rest of my life here. A future interview board will ask, "why didn't you try to move on to some bigger/turbine equipment?" Will they see this as a lack of motivation which will affect their decision to hire me? I think so. If I at least get some turbine time I will have the experience/leverage/position to TRY to raise the bar from the inside. I can't change anything from the outside looking in while all the little San Whiners get in line in front of me because I'm holding out for what I deserve. Air Wisky hires from Great Lakes, Comair likes only former military or Academy grads, Pinnacle will only take rich little snots that can go a few months with no job. I'm not rich and my family deserves to at least eat. ASA, well their just not hiring and when they do, it will be about 100 or 200 which are either already in the pool or they have already selected. I'm running out of options here.
This brings up a question which was discussed on a talk radio show I listen to. Americans in gereral are so caught up in getting paid what they "deserve" that a lot of workers/labor unions are pricing themselves right out of a job. Just watch CNN for a while and you'll hear about factories closing and opening up shop overseas for pennies on the dollar as far as labor cost. It's got to be a lot cheaper to justify building it, then shipping it back to ourselves to sell. I'm not saying your wrong, man. But we all need to dig real deep to find out what it is we really "deserve". Are we just trying to dig ourselves out of the credit card epedimic and the "got to have it NOW" disease facing America? We shouldn't blame a piss-poor paying airline because we can't control our own spending. I'm not saying "you" either, I'm just speaking in general terms. I hate bringing this up, but you still gotta go back to the supply/demand debate. When it gets bad enough, people will get out and equilibrium(sp?) will be established.
Once again, I don't know all the answers, I'm just making the best decision based on the factors in MY life.
Tailwinds
PS- Oh yeah, just found out my job here will end in less than a year, there's some fuel for the fire that will GREATLY affect this industry in the next year. All the little check haulers out on the street now, looking for a job with no jet time. There's a gloomy picture for ya.
LAXSaabdude
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2002
- Posts
- 431
acaTerry
SAPM
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2001
- Posts
- 2,393
LAXSaabdude,
Thanks, now I know that it's not just my computer!
210FR8DOG,
I'm hurrying thru this so I did not read your whole post yet....but for now let me just say no, if your membername is your current position, you have my respect and sympathy.....single engine freight must suck. But for your sake and that of those who come after you:
Don't cum in your pants over the first turbine job to come along. As long as JO and the likes of him have a steady stream of pilots who will something for nothing, things will decline at all levels of this industry. You can pay a pilot entry level pay for entry level jobs. But that SOB is paying JET PILOTS sub-MacDonalds pay. And it's time for people to grow a backbone and stop it.
I can speak on this with conviction. I'm not wanting to start a PFT war here, but I waited almost three years longer to get in the airlines to avoid PFT. Yes, at 400 to 500 bucks a month. Pumping avgas half the day, CFI-ing the other half and digging holes for the city of Phoenix on weekends. The last thing Iwas going to do was pay $11,000 for a job that paid $12,000, even if I had the money.
Eventually, enough of us did that and the airlines got the message....and PFT stopped. Additionally, the conflicts at ACA had a lot of us ready and willing to strike if needed. Luckily, the company was able to work something acceptable out.
Next comes along Freedumb, JO and this kind of stuff. I respect highly the decision ACA made in saying not no, but he11 no. And I even respect them more for their pursuit of JO in the courts. ACA is a first class airline and these kind of airline is worth waiting for.
It sucks to wait. But in the end you'll be glad you did it.
Nobody can tell me "Oh, boo hoo! It's easy for you to say, you're not in my shoes". But I have been. I do know what its like.
So I say...Maturity is the ability to accept delayed gratification.
Thanks, now I know that it's not just my computer!
210FR8DOG,
I'm hurrying thru this so I did not read your whole post yet....but for now let me just say no, if your membername is your current position, you have my respect and sympathy.....single engine freight must suck. But for your sake and that of those who come after you:
Don't cum in your pants over the first turbine job to come along. As long as JO and the likes of him have a steady stream of pilots who will something for nothing, things will decline at all levels of this industry. You can pay a pilot entry level pay for entry level jobs. But that SOB is paying JET PILOTS sub-MacDonalds pay. And it's time for people to grow a backbone and stop it.
I can speak on this with conviction. I'm not wanting to start a PFT war here, but I waited almost three years longer to get in the airlines to avoid PFT. Yes, at 400 to 500 bucks a month. Pumping avgas half the day, CFI-ing the other half and digging holes for the city of Phoenix on weekends. The last thing Iwas going to do was pay $11,000 for a job that paid $12,000, even if I had the money.
Eventually, enough of us did that and the airlines got the message....and PFT stopped. Additionally, the conflicts at ACA had a lot of us ready and willing to strike if needed. Luckily, the company was able to work something acceptable out.
Next comes along Freedumb, JO and this kind of stuff. I respect highly the decision ACA made in saying not no, but he11 no. And I even respect them more for their pursuit of JO in the courts. ACA is a first class airline and these kind of airline is worth waiting for.
It sucks to wait. But in the end you'll be glad you did it.
Nobody can tell me "Oh, boo hoo! It's easy for you to say, you're not in my shoes". But I have been. I do know what its like.
So I say...Maturity is the ability to accept delayed gratification.
dickie q
Active member
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2003
- Posts
- 28
acaTerry said:
When you wait to enter this profession, for whatever reason, you need to subtract your earning potential off the LAST years of your career, not the first, to realize lost earning potential. If ACA tops out at around 120k now, you lost out on 360K in today's dollars, if you stay there.
DEVO said:
Anyone who's putting in time flying an RJ on mainline's routes can't make these statements with a straight face.
Mesa is the lowest cost jet carrier out there. One of the reasons is their pilot contract cost them less relative to their competition. It makes no sense to hate the Mesa pilots for the contract they work under and then champion the idea of a low cost carrier. You either work for under an expensive contract, costing your company $ but enhancing your bottom line, or work under a contract that helps your company more, and corespondingly doesn't help you as much.
But the subject of this thread is denying a JS to a Mesa guy just b/c he works for Mesa. That is unprofessional, not to mention endangers the privledge of JS for all of us.
Alaska
Still hiring in Alaska at this late date. Guess I've found a viable option to the parallel move, and answer to the cash issues. I'll just try to stay warm, hurry up and wait! Open invite to many 135 and a few 121s carriers. Should be recruiting after Nov. 3 or so. Good to be back, sort of.
Still hiring in Alaska at this late date. Guess I've found a viable option to the parallel move, and answer to the cash issues. I'll just try to stay warm, hurry up and wait! Open invite to many 135 and a few 121s carriers. Should be recruiting after Nov. 3 or so. Good to be back, sort of.
acaTerry
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Still hiring in Alaska at this late date. Guess I've found a viable option to the parallel move, and answer to the cash issues. I'll just try to stay warm, hurry up and wait! Open invite to many 135 and a few 121s carriers. Should be recruiting after Nov. 3 or so.
NoooooooWaaayyyyyyy....too much of the white stuff for my cold WX wuss bones.
But the subject of this thread is denying a JS to a Mesa guy just b/c he works for Mesa. That is unprofessional, not to mention endangers the privledge of JS for all of us.
Can't argue with you on that. But, the Mesa types who are proud of their airline and that sunnuvabitchin JO...they got some gall to ask for it. They'll still get it, but I hope they appreciate the professionalism of those they screw.
When you wait to enter this profession, for whatever reason, you need to subtract your earning potential off the LAST years of your career, not the first, to realize lost earning potential. If ACA tops out at around 120k now, you lost out on 360K in today's dollars, if you stay there.
You're half right. But two things to consider:
One----possibly having to lose the career entirely from lack of funds (spent savings on a job)
Two----The pay as a result of things that giving in create, from pay cuts, will actually lower the pay. So in the end, it's about the same.
NoooooooWaaayyyyyyy....too much of the white stuff for my cold WX wuss bones.
But the subject of this thread is denying a JS to a Mesa guy just b/c he works for Mesa. That is unprofessional, not to mention endangers the privledge of JS for all of us.
Can't argue with you on that. But, the Mesa types who are proud of their airline and that sunnuvabitchin JO...they got some gall to ask for it. They'll still get it, but I hope they appreciate the professionalism of those they screw.
When you wait to enter this profession, for whatever reason, you need to subtract your earning potential off the LAST years of your career, not the first, to realize lost earning potential. If ACA tops out at around 120k now, you lost out on 360K in today's dollars, if you stay there.
You're half right. But two things to consider:
One----possibly having to lose the career entirely from lack of funds (spent savings on a job)
Two----The pay as a result of things that giving in create, from pay cuts, will actually lower the pay. So in the end, it's about the same.
CitationLover
Aw, Nuts!
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- 3,316
to quote ronald reagan, "There you go again acaTerry".
no mesa pilot in this thread has said they were proud of their airline or JO. of course the pilots want better wages, etc. you can say the same at ACA. you want more money don't you?
the problem is that anti-mesa-ites routinely group the pilots with the contract and jo. the contract was a lesser of two evils that has been voted in (i wasn't there), its in the past. deal with it. b!tching ain't gonna change it.
as far as pilots wages as a "cost" that is total mgmt bs. 1 or 2 seats cover the "cost" on each flight. wages are at rock bottom and can only go up. we need to change the image of the $300,000 pilot who works 10 days a month in the publics eye before any progress can be made. once the public understands this pressure can be used to drive up wages.
WhiteCloud
Well-known member
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In a perfect world with airlines that are around for your career and the ability to fly until age 60 a simple formula like this might work. The reality of loss of stock value and retirement benefits if your airline goes belly up and time away for furlough and having to start over with a new company in your 40's or 50's all play a significant role. Also the lost income of not working in another field can play a role too. It just isn't so simple. A lot of us like working a decent schedule and making a few less bucks rather than starting over at a new place.dickie q said:
acaTerry
SAPM
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Mesa Lifer
Dismembered
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Uhhh, I sense a contradiction
ACA Terry-
You are obviously a champion of ACA and their plan for a LCC.
You hate Mesa because we "lower the bar" for the regional industry.
You talk about making $300k/yr at an airline.........
First off, we are not going to see those wages anytime soon in today's dollars.
Second, why wouldn't someone at USAir or Delta or United say to hell with those ACA guys because they are lowering the bar for 737 flying? I have come to understand that captain pay at the LCC will top around $137/hr to start for the senior guys. Sounds a lot lower than 737 pay rates used to be.
I'm not trying to start a war, okay maybe I am, but no offense man you sound like a hippocrite with all your anti-mesa whining and then champion a carrier that will try to bring down some of the majors.
Oh I know, it's all just business as long as it beneifts you....
-ML
ACA Terry-
You are obviously a champion of ACA and their plan for a LCC.
You hate Mesa because we "lower the bar" for the regional industry.
You talk about making $300k/yr at an airline.........
First off, we are not going to see those wages anytime soon in today's dollars.
Second, why wouldn't someone at USAir or Delta or United say to hell with those ACA guys because they are lowering the bar for 737 flying? I have come to understand that captain pay at the LCC will top around $137/hr to start for the senior guys. Sounds a lot lower than 737 pay rates used to be.
I'm not trying to start a war, okay maybe I am, but no offense man you sound like a hippocrite with all your anti-mesa whining and then champion a carrier that will try to bring down some of the majors.
Oh I know, it's all just business as long as it beneifts you....
-ML
acaTerry
SAPM
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MesaLifer,
I see your points and how you can misconstrue my points here.
There is a BIG difference between what ACA is doing to support OUR OWN life as ana airline by cutting loose the weight on our necks and what Mesa is doing by seeking out other airlines to destroy.
Tell JO hi for me......
I see your points and how you can misconstrue my points here.
There is a BIG difference between what ACA is doing to support OUR OWN life as ana airline by cutting loose the weight on our necks and what Mesa is doing by seeking out other airlines to destroy.
Tell JO hi for me......
Mesa Lifer
Dismembered
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- Jul 14, 2003
- Posts
- 27
Sounds familiar
ACA Terry-
You have to do what you need to survive? Sounds familiar to me. Mesa voted in our contract to stop Freedom and do what we had to do to survive.
I think the moral of the story is strikingly similar. It just depends what side of the fence you are on at any given point.
Oh, and by the way, if there is anything that ACA can do to give it right back to JO you have my full support. Don't think I would love to see him go to jail (although I doubt it) even at the expense of my job.
-ML
Thanks WSCRJ....I'll let you know how things go.
ACA Terry-
You have to do what you need to survive? Sounds familiar to me. Mesa voted in our contract to stop Freedom and do what we had to do to survive.
I think the moral of the story is strikingly similar. It just depends what side of the fence you are on at any given point.
Oh, and by the way, if there is anything that ACA can do to give it right back to JO you have my full support. Don't think I would love to see him go to jail (although I doubt it) even at the expense of my job.
-ML
Thanks WSCRJ....I'll let you know how things go.
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acaTerry
SAPM
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Had you guys all at once said NO to that TA, there is no way JO could have possibly got Freedumb moving fast enough to replace you guys. I know it would have worked b/c the guys at CMR did it. DAL pilots would not take up the flying, ACA would not take up the flying, and neither could have ASA. SO DAL had to give, and they are bigger than JO. So it could have been done.
Also, explain to me, please, how ACA's going it alone equates with a HOSTILE TAKEOVER, which is what MESA is doing. How can you guys defend for that?
Is ACA buying SWA, or JB or AWA? NO. Is Mesa trying to buy ACA? Yes. Would they try to turn ACA into another Mesa? Yes. Is ACA fighting it? Yes. So how do we lower the bar by saying bye bye to UAL and going alone? So the pay is not SWA pay, but its pretty good, and you can bet that the ACA pilot group, when things are golden again, will expect it back. Mesa just seems to keep saying "Hit me again, Ike! And this time, put some STANK on it!!"
You guys had the opportunity to be another CMR...but you blew it. Now we all suffer for it. And now you have a boner for ACA. ACA doesn't want Mesa. Leave ACA alone. ACA is fine. By refusing Mesa, and the things ACA pilots will do if Mesa wins, ACA is showing guts. The guts Mesa could have shown. So don't even attempt to label us as the weaklings.
Also, explain to me, please, how ACA's going it alone equates with a HOSTILE TAKEOVER, which is what MESA is doing. How can you guys defend for that?
Is ACA buying SWA, or JB or AWA? NO. Is Mesa trying to buy ACA? Yes. Would they try to turn ACA into another Mesa? Yes. Is ACA fighting it? Yes. So how do we lower the bar by saying bye bye to UAL and going alone? So the pay is not SWA pay, but its pretty good, and you can bet that the ACA pilot group, when things are golden again, will expect it back. Mesa just seems to keep saying "Hit me again, Ike! And this time, put some STANK on it!!"
You guys had the opportunity to be another CMR...but you blew it. Now we all suffer for it. And now you have a boner for ACA. ACA doesn't want Mesa. Leave ACA alone. ACA is fine. By refusing Mesa, and the things ACA pilots will do if Mesa wins, ACA is showing guts. The guts Mesa could have shown. So don't even attempt to label us as the weaklings.
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