Mesa upgrades

[acaTerry]

What should I a guy who has 2000 total and 500 multi do? Continue instructing for $15k/year with no pay increase, being paid for 6 hours out of every 12 at the airport, no medical benefits, no vacation, building piston time after 3 years of already doing this in survival mode? Let's not even mention the pay reduction due to the oncoming winter weather.

See DEVO's post.....the message is clear.

"Maturity is the ability to accept delayed gratification"

 

[eaglefly]

IMO in one way, I for one am thankful for Mesa and "Johnny smooth talk".

Before this pilot group willingly hopped in the sack with the new Lorenzo, our pilot group was the "goat" of the industry.

AMR was successful in making our field of grass the driest and worst tasting of all the fields that regional pilots eat out of.

Smooth boy has convinced this group to eat the dirt we left behind for the promise of tearing down as many fences as he can to let them feed on other groups left over dirt.

He's publicly pledged to become THE lowest cost provider of regional feed in the U.S. and seems to have every regional carriers pilots are in his sights. The Mesa pilots simply gave him the ammo for his guns...and forever hoisted themselves to the highest pinnicle in the airline pilots "hall of shame".

I doubt ANYONE will ever climb higher (lower).

Our 16-year CBA looks pretty darn good caompared to their embarassing garbage - and that's not something to be proud of.

You wan't to go to Mesa ?

Anyone who would want to, deserves it.

I think they aren't even worth the contract they're working under now.

It should be less.

 

[WhiteCloud]

What should a guy who has 2000 total and 500 multi do? Continue instructing for $15k/year with no pay increase, being paid for 6 hours out of every 12 at the airport, no medical benefits, no vacation, building piston time after 3 years of already doing this in survival mode? Let's not even mention the pay reduction due to the oncoming winter weather.

Or go to Mesa, who is apparently the only regional to show interest in the last 2 years, get a pay raise, fly larger equipment, get medical benefits and vacation while gaining part 121 experience? It's easy to call Mesa the bottom when you're above it. The truth is, there's a whole bottom below even Mesa and climbing out of it is not based on experience.

I repectfully disagree with many who say you shouldn't take a job at MESA. You need the turbine and line experience to be considered for the better jobs. Sure, you might run into someone on a hiring board that has a problem with MESA pilots. Without the experience you won't get to the board in the first place. We need to change the industry from within and not place the burden on new hire pilots.

 

[210FR8DOG]

Taloft, good question. Put in a much more diplomatic fashion than my ranting and raving post.

I rest my case: ACATerry, Devo, eaglefly all giving us some good advice.........FROM THE COCKPIT OF A JET!!!!!!!! And I didn't even go back to the beginning of the thread. That was just responses from my whining post above!!

Would anyone like to come fly this Baron for me for a few more years and keep up that "hold to your values" talk? I didn't think so.

My dad doesn't fly for an airline(he doesn't even fly) I don't know anyone at any airline. When I feel like there might be a prayer of a miniscule chance of getting a call from a better carrier, I'll bypass Mesa. Waiting for the phone to ring............................................................................................................................................................................................................

 

[acaTerry]

I repectfully disagree with many who say you shouldn't take a job at MESA. You need the turbine and line experience to be considered for the better jobs.

Keep it up and there will BE NO BETTER JOBS.

I rest my case: ACATerry, Devo, eaglefly all giving us some good advice.........FROM THE COCKPIT OF A JET!!!!!!!!

Nice try pal! We put ungodly amounts of prop time to do any jet flying. IOW.....we earned it. Did not whore out and make anything better an impossibility because we "wanted a jet" or "thought we deserved it".
Boo Frickety Hoo!

 

[210FR8DOG]

ACATerry,

Seriously, I respect your position. It's not like I'm all pumped about trying to fly for the lowest paying regional out there. But my career, like many others, is stagnant. I will make 20k for the rest of my life here. A future interview board will ask, "why didn't you try to move on to some bigger/turbine equipment?" Will they see this as a lack of motivation which will affect their decision to hire me? I think so. If I at least get some turbine time I will have the experience/leverage/position to TRY to raise the bar from the inside. I can't change anything from the outside looking in while all the little San Whiners get in line in front of me because I'm holding out for what I deserve. Air Wisky hires from Great Lakes, Comair likes only former military or Academy grads, Pinnacle will only take rich little snots that can go a few months with no job. I'm not rich and my family deserves to at least eat. ASA, well their just not hiring and when they do, it will be about 100 or 200 which are either already in the pool or they have already selected. I'm running out of options here.

This brings up a question which was discussed on a talk radio show I listen to. Americans in gereral are so caught up in getting paid what they "deserve" that a lot of workers/labor unions are pricing themselves right out of a job. Just watch CNN for a while and you'll hear about factories closing and opening up shop overseas for pennies on the dollar as far as labor cost. It's got to be a lot cheaper to justify building it, then shipping it back to ourselves to sell. I'm not saying your wrong, man. But we all need to dig real deep to find out what it is we really "deserve". Are we just trying to dig ourselves out of the credit card epedimic and the "got to have it NOW" disease facing America? We shouldn't blame a piss-poor paying airline because we can't control our own spending. I'm not saying "you" either, I'm just speaking in general terms. I hate bringing this up, but you still gotta go back to the supply/demand debate. When it gets bad enough, people will get out and equilibrium(sp?) will be established.

Once again, I don't know all the answers, I'm just making the best decision based on the factors in MY life.

Tailwinds

PS- Oh yeah, just found out my job here will end in less than a year, there's some fuel for the fire that will GREATLY affect this industry in the next year. All the little check haulers out on the street now, looking for a job with no jet time. There's a gloomy picture for ya.

 

[LAXSaabdude]

Why is this thread so WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDDDDDDDDDDEEEEEEEEEE?

 

[acaTerry]

LAXSaabdude,
Thanks, now I know that it's not just my computer!

210FR8DOG,
I'm hurrying thru this so I did not read your whole post yet....but for now let me just say no, if your membername is your current position, you have my respect and sympathy.....single engine freight must suck. But for your sake and that of those who come after you:
Don't cum in your pants over the first turbine job to come along. As long as JO and the likes of him have a steady stream of pilots who will something for nothing, things will decline at all levels of this industry. You can pay a pilot entry level pay for entry level jobs. But that SOB is paying JET PILOTS sub-MacDonalds pay. And it's time for people to grow a backbone and stop it.
I can speak on this with conviction. I'm not wanting to start a PFT war here, but I waited almost three years longer to get in the airlines to avoid PFT. Yes, at 400 to 500 bucks a month. Pumping avgas half the day, CFI-ing the other half and digging holes for the city of Phoenix on weekends. The last thing Iwas going to do was pay $11,000 for a job that paid $12,000, even if I had the money.
Eventually, enough of us did that and the airlines got the message....and PFT stopped. Additionally, the conflicts at ACA had a lot of us ready and willing to strike if needed. Luckily, the company was able to work something acceptable out.
Next comes along Freedumb, JO and this kind of stuff. I respect highly the decision ACA made in saying not no, but he11 no. And I even respect them more for their pursuit of JO in the courts. ACA is a first class airline and these kind of airline is worth waiting for.
It sucks to wait. But in the end you'll be glad you did it.
Nobody can tell me "Oh, boo hoo! It's easy for you to say, you're not in my shoes". But I have been. I do know what its like.
So I say...Maturity is the ability to accept delayed gratification.

 

[dickie q]

I waited almost three years longer to get in the airlines to avoid PFT. Yes, at 400 to 500 bucks a month. Pumping avgas half the day, CFI-ing the other half and digging holes for the city of Phoenix on weekends. The last thing Iwas going to do was pay $11,000 for a job that paid $12,000, even if I had the money.

When you wait to enter this profession, for whatever reason, you need to subtract your earning potential off the LAST years of your career, not the first, to realize lost earning potential. If ACA tops out at around 120k now, you lost out on 360K in today's dollars, if you stay there.

 

[stillaboo]

If you plan on "Getting the BIG job" by putting in your time at some second rate carrier- that is up to you.

Anyone who's putting in time flying an RJ on mainline's routes can't make these statements with a straight face.

In case you have been living in a cave somewhere- The business model has changed! The days of operating 737 with 25 people on board are GONE, bye-bye, never to come back. It is called "Economic Darwinism" and if you don't adapt, you're gone. In case you missed it somewhere, I'll explain it, even though it hurts: Low Cost Carriers making money hand over fist- Legacy carriers bleeding red ink all over the place.

Mesa is the lowest cost jet carrier out there. One of the reasons is their pilot contract cost them less relative to their competition. It makes no sense to hate the Mesa pilots for the contract they work under and then champion the idea of a low cost carrier. You either work for under an expensive contract, costing your company $ but enhancing your bottom line, or work under a contract that helps your company more, and corespondingly doesn't help you as much.

But the subject of this thread is denying a JS to a Mesa guy just b/c he works for Mesa. That is unprofessional, not to mention endangers the privledge of JS for all of us.

 

[sled]

Alaska

Still hiring in Alaska at this late date. Guess I've found a viable option to the parallel move, and answer to the cash issues. I'll just try to stay warm, hurry up and wait! Open invite to many 135 and a few 121s carriers. Should be recruiting after Nov. 3 or so. Good to be back, sort of.

 

[acaTerry]

Still hiring in Alaska at this late date. Guess I've found a viable option to the parallel move, and answer to the cash issues. I'll just try to stay warm, hurry up and wait! Open invite to many 135 and a few 121s carriers. Should be recruiting after Nov. 3 or so.

NoooooooWaaayyyyyyy....too much of the white stuff for my cold WX wuss bones.

But the subject of this thread is denying a JS to a Mesa guy just b/c he works for Mesa. That is unprofessional, not to mention endangers the privledge of JS for all of us.

Can't argue with you on that. But, the Mesa types who are proud of their airline and that sunnuvabitchin JO...they got some gall to ask for it. They'll still get it, but I hope they appreciate the professionalism of those they screw.

When you wait to enter this profession, for whatever reason, you need to subtract your earning potential off the LAST years of your career, not the first, to realize lost earning potential. If ACA tops out at around 120k now, you lost out on 360K in today's dollars, if you stay there.

You're half right. But two things to consider:
One----possibly having to lose the career entirely from lack of funds (spent savings on a job)
Two----The pay as a result of things that giving in create, from pay cuts, will actually lower the pay. So in the end, it's about the same.

 

[CitationLover]

But, the Mesa types who are proud of their airline and that sunnuvabitchin JO...they got some gall to ask for it.

to quote ronald reagan, "There you go again acaTerry".

no mesa pilot in this thread has said they were proud of their airline or JO. of course the pilots want better wages, etc. you can say the same at ACA. you want more money don't you?

the problem is that anti-mesa-ites routinely group the pilots with the contract and jo. the contract was a lesser of two evils that has been voted in (i wasn't there), its in the past. deal with it. b!tching ain't gonna change it.

as far as pilots wages as a "cost" that is total mgmt bs. 1 or 2 seats cover the "cost" on each flight. wages are at rock bottom and can only go up. we need to change the image of the $300,000 pilot who works 10 days a month in the publics eye before any progress can be made. once the public understands this pressure can be used to drive up wages.

 

[WhiteCloud]

When you wait to enter this profession, for whatever reason, you need to subtract your earning potential off the LAST years of your career, not the first, to realize lost earning potential. If ACA tops out at around 120k now, you lost out on 360K in today's dollars, if you stay there.

In a perfect world with airlines that are around for your career and the ability to fly until age 60 a simple formula like this might work. The reality of loss of stock value and retirement benefits if your airline goes belly up and time away for furlough and having to start over with a new company in your 40's or 50's all play a significant role. Also the lost income of not working in another field can play a role too. It just isn't so simple. A lot of us like working a decent schedule and making a few less bucks rather than starting over at a new place.

 

[acaTerry]

to quote ronald reagan, "There you go again acaTerry".

Yes, there I go again.... But it makes me feel good.

no mesa pilot in this thread has said they were proud of their airline or JO.

Actually there have been some. I know b/c I've argued with them.

 

[Mesa Lifer]

Uhhh, I sense a contradiction

ACA Terry-

You are obviously a champion of ACA and their plan for a LCC.

You hate Mesa because we "lower the bar" for the regional industry.

You talk about making $300k/yr at an airline.........

First off, we are not going to see those wages anytime soon in today's dollars.

Second, why wouldn't someone at USAir or Delta or United say to hell with those ACA guys because they are lowering the bar for 737 flying? I have come to understand that captain pay at the LCC will top around $137/hr to start for the senior guys. Sounds a lot lower than 737 pay rates used to be.

I'm not trying to start a war, okay maybe I am, but no offense man you sound like a hippocrite with all your anti-mesa whining and then champion a carrier that will try to bring down some of the majors.

Oh I know, it's all just business as long as it beneifts you....


-ML

 

[acaTerry]

MesaLifer,
I see your points and how you can misconstrue my points here.
There is a BIG difference between what ACA is doing to support OUR OWN life as ana airline by cutting loose the weight on our necks and what Mesa is doing by seeking out other airlines to destroy.
Tell JO hi for me......

 

[wscrj]

Good luck Lifer!

Good Luck on the type tomorrow Lifer!

Don't sweat it...you're way ahead of the curve on this one.

 

[Mesa Lifer]

Sounds familiar

ACA Terry-

You have to do what you need to survive? Sounds familiar to me. Mesa voted in our contract to stop Freedom and do what we had to do to survive.

I think the moral of the story is strikingly similar. It just depends what side of the fence you are on at any given point.

Oh, and by the way, if there is anything that ACA can do to give it right back to JO you have my full support. Don't think I would love to see him go to jail (although I doubt it) even at the expense of my job.


-ML

Thanks WSCRJ....I'll let you know how things go.

 

[acaTerry]

Had you guys all at once said NO to that TA, there is no way JO could have possibly got Freedumb moving fast enough to replace you guys. I know it would have worked b/c the guys at CMR did it. DAL pilots would not take up the flying, ACA would not take up the flying, and neither could have ASA. SO DAL had to give, and they are bigger than JO. So it could have been done.

Also, explain to me, please, how ACA's going it alone equates with a HOSTILE TAKEOVER, which is what MESA is doing. How can you guys defend for that?

Is ACA buying SWA, or JB or AWA? NO. Is Mesa trying to buy ACA? Yes. Would they try to turn ACA into another Mesa? Yes. Is ACA fighting it? Yes. So how do we lower the bar by saying bye bye to UAL and going alone? So the pay is not SWA pay, but its pretty good, and you can bet that the ACA pilot group, when things are golden again, will expect it back. Mesa just seems to keep saying "Hit me again, Ike! And this time, put some STANK on it!!"

You guys had the opportunity to be another CMR...but you blew it. Now we all suffer for it. And now you have a boner for ACA. ACA doesn't want Mesa. Leave ACA alone. ACA is fine. By refusing Mesa, and the things ACA pilots will do if Mesa wins, ACA is showing guts. The guts Mesa could have shown. So don't even attempt to label us as the weaklings.