MESA TA Question

[P38JLightning]

"gladiators" wanted

>If none of those guys screwed over their comrades at Mesa, Freedom never could have gotten started. Without Freedom, JO wouldn't be in a position to shut down Mesa. Without Freedom, ALPA would be able to focus more on the QOL and pay issues and scope wouldn't be such a big deal.

>No one can possibly overstate the long term damage those guys that left Mesa for Freedom did not only to their fellow pilots, but to all you guys complaining about this contract. Sure, criticize us for trying to get a little job security in our lives, but save your worst ire for those who screwed us all.


Exactly! Don't you see, if you vote for that industry lagging POS, your "airtight scope" won't be worth anything because JO won't NEED to outsource to anyone cheaper because there won't BE anyone cheaper! I'm sure on the DCI side Leo would would give us an all Comair/ASA DCI deal right now if we would sell our souls down the river like that by gutting our pay rates and work rules.

Think you will live to fight another day? What is the duration of this contract TA? 4 years? 5? Tack on another 2-3 years JO can stall your NEXT negotiations, assuming McCaine/Lott doesn't become reality, and you won't even have a chance to fight for almost a decade at least. IF that baseball arbitration crap ever does become law, you will look back on this TA vote as your last ever chance to exercise any leverage in ANY form. You and others that follow will be living with the effects of these unfounded concessions for the rest of their careers.

But mandatory arbitration aside, let's say you vote yes for this POS. You get your great MAG scope. Have you thought about the reprecussions of this industry lagging contract on all future negotiations at other carriers? CoEx will be screwed. ASA will be screwed. It will be the final nail in the coffin of Mesaba. And lord knows how low Chautauqua will have to stoop to underbid Mesa in their negotiations.

The thought of potentially going on strike is scarry. Being on strike is even more frightening, believe me, I've been there. But its all of our duties as professional aviators to resist airline management's occasional attempts to reverse our long history of sucessful pattern bargaining.

There may be times and places for concessions and less than stellar contracts. No one is expecting you Mesa folks to be in a position to shatter the bar and get the most expensive contract out there. But 8 and 9 min days off and 70 and 90 seat RJ pay rates below almost every current contract 50 seat RJ pay rates is a setback in pilot pay and working conditions that our segment of the airline industry won't even be able to recover from for at least a third of most of our careers, and that's just the young guys. You sign this TA, we all lose.

If you truly want to live to fight another day, vote this POS down. You WILL get another offer. You guys are making a good profit with huge growth on the horizon. JO may be willing to shut the doors on you if you try to get the richest RJ contract in history, but not if you simply go for industry average. You can bet he will threaten doom and gloom all day long. Managers always do. Our company VP gave us a last final offer. We voted no and guess what, we got another double secret last final offer that was better. The Delta VP threatened us with liquidation if we voted no, but we voted no anyway. Instead of the liquidation we were promised, however (including the transfer of our flying to, among others, Mesa of all airlines) we got an industry leading contract instead.

You are right, these are challenging times to be in negotiations. You are probably not in any position to get a Comair or Air Whisky + 30% type contract. But you can do considerably better than that POS TA. Mesa is a money making machine right now. Freedumb, fortunately, can't possibly take over if you withdraw your services without resulting in a high 8 or 9 figure financial disaster for MAG. Neither JO nor his lorenzofied ego can afford that, despite his saber ratteling and canned threats. That is precisely why you WILL get another, better offer if you vote no on this one. This TA is a test to see how low you are willing to go. Don't fall for it.

In Gladiator, Maximus said "what we do in life echoes in eternity."
Nothing is eternal in the ever changing airline industry, but your vote on this TA will determine the fate of all RJ airline pilot negotiations for the rest of this decade and beyond. You vote for this TA and we all lose. Vote no and we ALL just may live to fight another day.

 

[Flying"C"ranchr]

P38 is right...

We should not take accept this TA. It is unacceptable. We should vote it down, no question. Have a cooling off period and push for what we all deserve... QOL. If it doesn't come around we strike. Jo can't afford it. The $80 million will only last the company a week. I truely believe we can do much better than what is on the table.

In my opinion this TA doesn't have anything to do with the fate of other carriers or the future of smaller carriers. Most carriers have stronger representation than we have at Mesa. Our MEC should not have accepted this Ta in the first place. If there were no other recourse to accept this TA, then they (MEC) should be helping us with getting the strike centers ready... not putting sugar on this turd of a TA.

The bottom line is this TA was accepted to get J4J. It wasn't accepted to help the current employees at Mesa. I feel bad for the mainline folks with concessionjss and many unemployed. All the more reason to get while the getting is good. Because we are not going anywhere (except a lateral move) for a LONG TIME!!! Think long-term. We are no better than the Freedom pilots if this TA passes. Bottom line we will be hurting ourselves just as the Freedom pilots have done.

I have been very frustrated for the past six months and have spoke with many ALPA pilot to pilot reps and other ALPA reps. They have all said, "stay the course, we will get what we deserve. Don't jump ship yet, stay the course." I will continue to stay the course. However, if this TA passes... I for one am jumping ship. I have other options and can afford to jump ship. I would recommend to other pilots that have options to jump ship as well. For the pilots that don't have options... now is the time to jump ship and work on creating options. Every mainline pilot will tell you to have a backup plan. Well now is the time to be prepared to have one.

If this Ta gets passed we have no one to blame but ourselves. AND I can't stay with a company and listen to fellow crew members moaning and groaning about sorry work conditions and how the company is sticking it to us any longer. I say to anyone supporting this TA, "you are sticking it to yourself if you vote yes." If you want a better QOL at Mesa you must vote no on this TA.

Ranch'r

 

[lionflyer]

When are you guys scheduled to vote?

 

[be190]

Mesa Ta

Hello Guys and Gals,

I don't post alot on this board, but I do read alot of the post in this section. I truly agree this TA is a terrible start to the next four and a half years. I attended a road show in Charlotte, NC and I couldn't help but look at our MEC and negotiating commitee in total disgust at what was happening. They truly are trying to sell this TA; which I agree if it was good enough, it shouldn't have to be sold to us. The whole point is I believe it to be a big step in the wrong direction.

With that said, I also got an inside glimpse at what else was at stake inside that room at the road show. The fact that over half the people in there were CCR forloughed employees just wanting to come back to work. I want nothing more than to vote this TA down and start from new, but I found my self torn between getting those guys and gals of CCR back in the cockpit or possibly compromising any chance they have to come back. Some of these people have been flying alot longer than I have (to the tune of 10 to 15 years) and for me to possibly deny them a job would be wrong whether this TA is good or bad. Some of us may vote yes because of this one fact. I myself am still torn but time will tell.

 

[Intruder One]

Tp be190:

You are correct about the CCAir guys they do need to return to work, but alot of the senior people were not even informed of the meetings.The claus to bring in CCAir is 3yr. pay,that is unexceptable to most I have spoken with.As you stated alot of them have 10 or 15 yrs,almost half with 10yrs. or more.I cannot believe ALPA is going along with this.Voting no may not help them but any improvement would certainly be better than what they have now.

 

[WileE]

You all have your points.

This whole issue is why I hate unions and management. I agree with every one of you that this TA basically sucks. I also agree that our negotiations commitee should have shot for something higher. But I also believe that there is absolutely no way we will get something better. After all, if we turn this one down we will still have the same negotiating committee going back to the drawing board, you think they will somehow do a better job next time? I don't, the J4J goes out the window with the TA and that was the only card the union had in the last round of negotiations. Without it they got nothing.

This is ALPA we are talking about. They will let us rot on the vine for 6-9 more months with half of us on furlough (if they are lying and we still have jobs after the TA goes down) and then come back with a worse contract than now. Even if it's a little better, if it doesn't have the scope they want the big boss man won't sign it even if we do vote it in. Who the heck do you think approved our last crap contract?

I think that the people who believe that out of work pilots will just magically find another job out there if furloughed or released are dreaming. It's not happening, just ask a lot of those CCAir guys with the 10-15 years of experience. When you have to compete with the thousands of Mainline types on the street looking for flying jobs, you aren't going to look too good.

There are a lot of Mesa guys who have been around the company a lot longer than I have saying they would never accept the working conditions of this TA and that they are selling out the rest of the industry. Well that sounds pretty false coming out of the mouths of people who have been working for less than that for the past six years of the current contract. Nothing is changing at Mesa because of the reps YOU guys voted into position, I never had a say with any of them. If you are currently employed here you are a bottom feeder now, this TA won't all of a sudden make you one. If you have a better opportunity out there why haven't you taken it? Give up on this moral high ground crap, if that was truly your belief you all would have left long ago or never came to this company.

If this TA passes I sincerely doubt I'll see one guy at Mesa jump ship for "moral outrage". They'll only jump ship for a better job, just like everyone else who's left this company in the past few years. Do I have any loyalty to Mesa? F*ck no! I'll be out of here as soon as I get a job offer from someone better. Do I have any loyalty for ALPA? F*ck no! They have no loyalty at all to the lower end of the airline spectrum, proven again and again. But this is a closed shop industry and they are the ones negotiating for my job and my pay.

We'll see what happens. Me I'll vote yes on this contract because me and my family can't afford to have me on the street again for another eight months. If it happens I sure as hell don't see ALPA or any of you hypocrits at the other regionals giving me and mine a helping hand. More likely you'll laugh your way to work in the morning happy that all those pilots at Mesa got theirs. Pilot solidarity my left butt cheek. We'll see how you like it when every company out there follows the Freedom model after JO shows it works to break up the union.

 

[Beantown]

How come when I read the mainline boards I don't see the mainline pilots blaming US Airways for taking 30%+ pay cuts that have started a trend at the majors that will see almost everyone follow? How did pilots at UAL, Delta and American get better contracts in the last 1990's with airlines like America West and Spirit paying there pilots regional wages and work rules? I heard a rumor that ACA, Skywest and Air Whisky are going to be looking for concessions from there pilots soon. My guess is that if this happens they will all give in and then run to this board blaming Mesa so they don't look like the hypocrites that they are.
-Bean

 

[Singlecoil]

Re: Mesa Ta

I attended a road show in Charlotte, NC and I couldn't help but look at our MEC and negotiating commitee in total disgust at what was happening. They truly are trying to sell this TA; which I agree if it was good enough, it shouldn't have to be sold to us. The whole point is I believe it to be a big step in the wrong direction.

A commonly misheld belief in the negotiating process is that your negotiating committee will give you the straight poop on the TA they are presenting to the members. They are REQUIRED by the NMB to sell it to you if they have agreed to it. Deep down inside, they probably want you to vote NO so they can go back to the table and improve upon it. However, if there is any hint that they are winking at you and encouraging you to vote NO, the NMB can find them to be bargaining in bad faith and punish them.
The lesson is, the pilots themselves must read the entire contract, discuss it amongst themselves, and vote accordingly. Blaming a vast ALPA conspiracy doesn't do any good either. Your negotiators are your pilots.
Most pilots never read what they are voting on at all. At my old airline, people would walk around and ask three people what they were going to vote, and make their decision from that.

Read the contract as if you were the Chief Pilot or a crew scheduler and you were out to screw a pilot out of a day off, or cancel a flight and not pay him. Is there a way for you to do that? I brought up numerous examples of this at my old company, but people said, "No, they wouldn't read it that way, they won't do that to us." Guess what? That was the first thing the company did when it went into effect. Items will be snuck in that read a certain way, but mean something entirely different. You have to read the contract from the contrarian point of view to get a full appreciation of what you are voting on.

 

[SELFloadingCRGO]

Has someone actually found a way to squeeze blood from a turnip?




SLC

 

[Intruder One]

Yesss..........El Wapo