mesa...lets go for a ride

[LAFrequentflyer]

What's the real story about MESA? Their CLT base is very appealing and they are union.

PM if you like...It's very difficult to get the real story on here.

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[AvroJockey]

MMO on the CRJ is .85. If you fly faster it beeps at you. The CRJ is not a Learjet.

I've never flown the CRJ but every jet has buffet boundary charts which give you the low and high speed buffet boundary for weight, flight level, and g loading.

I would believe that the CRJ has a relatively large margin between high and low speed buffet at it max certified flight level (FL410, I believe) and weight, most transport category aircraft do. However, that doesn't mean you can go to .85 in all flight conditions. Anyone that flies a jet needs to pull out the AFM and take a look at these charts to get an idea what the general limits are, otherwise you're putting lives in danger.

Believe me, this is a real threat. We had a crew on the CE560XL with your mentality (beeper goes off at .75) and they were introduced to mach stall when they hit a little turbulence. Luckily no one was hurt.

BTW...every avionics suite that i've flown fails to accurately correct for high speed buffet boundary limits, so I wouldn't trust your beeper!

 

[Dooker]

I was always told that if I kept the little speed pointer thing from getting into the red part then I'd always be fine.

Are you saying I got some bum advice?

WTF?

 

[vgna man]

You know what guys: I can't do it anymore. I'm wasting way to much time defending my position that Mesa is in a different league than the majority of other airlines. I can't spend anymore time thinking about Mesa. If you disagree, that's fine. My views about them are based on years of experience and run-ins with Mesa. I hope those of you praising Mesa won't begin praising other airlines like Go--JETS. It seems that after a few years has gone by, those that havn't been around very long don't understand the history of these bottom feeders and justify them. My advice: Don't suggest that Mesa is a good airline. If you do some research, you'll see my point. If you disagree with me, that's on you.
This is my last post on this topic.

Due continue and let all that anger come out. Seems that you have been holding on to too much anger for many many years. You seem to be represed. Let it out in a constructive way but when you let it out really express it. Don't take it back with you it will only hurt you physically, emotionally. It doesn't hurt anyone else. So go ahead let that anger come out hit a pillow scream shake uncontrollably. Be one with the anger and my friend it will disapear but you have to be conscious about it. Right now you don't even now what you are angry about. The source of the anger is in you but beacause you are living unconsciously you projected outwardly trying to get rid of it but it is not going to work. So be with yourself sit quietly and find out why are you really angry. Then express it release it and celebrete with life.

 

[begsby]

I think it safe to say that McNugget, Instructordude, browntothebone, and legacydriver all hang out together! And they obviously have nothing better to do than hangout in the regional boards. What a shame they can't use their time to better their own companies positon with respect to their own careers. I've never meet a successful person who has spent so much time putting another person down.

 

[spitfire1500]

Flew mesa jumpseat recently...wow do they not know about aero or the coffin corner over there. Too high too fast and did not even know it. And what does the saying lets go for a ride mean in a mesa cockpit.

If you've got an issue in the jumpseat then say something to the crew moron....last time I checked a jumpseater is an additional crew member (Must have licenses, medical and no drinking 8 hours prior).

 

[AvroJockey]

I was always told that if I kept the little speed pointer thing from getting into the red part then I'd always be fine.

Are you saying I got some bum advice?

WTF?

Yep! That's very bum advice on most aircraft.

95% of flights you can go to the barber pole. It becomes critical when you are heavy, you're filed for FL350 and you decide to climb over weather to FL390. You may be speed limited at FL390 or have too little a coffin corner to go to that FL in the first place.

Next time you're flying, whip out the AFM, and pull apart the pages that were stuck together with coffee, and you'll find buffet boundary charts. They come in all different shapes and sizes, including spaghetti, table, and envelope.

Your aircraft might not have any problem with high speed buffet at high weights and FLs, but the only way to find out is to look at the AFM. Because you don't want to be a test pilot with 50 souls in the back when the shock decides to move drastically because you got a little jolt of turbulence while riding the barber pole.

Hate to break this to you, but almost every jet operates in the transonic flight regime and has shock waves generating on top on the wing at normal cruise speeds. That's why some jets have vortex generators. I believe the EMB135/145 has them mid chord in front of the ailerons. This creates a high energy vortex to punch through the lambda foot, reenergizing air behind the shockwave so your controls remain effective in transonic flight. VGs mounted mid-chord are not for low speed flight.

But of course you wouldn't know this...the SR71 doesn't spend much time in the transonic flight.

 

[wmuflyguy]

Coffin corner is an issue in RJ's? Coffin corner is where stall speed and Mmo are the same speed. The U2 is the only plane i'm aware of that runs into this issue

No, the only time I have even seen the low and high speed cues at the same time is when one of the ADC's was acting up and it was readily apparent as one side didn't hve the low speed cue depicted and the other side did.

 

[brokedash]

Didn't a 727 have an encounter with this that almost lead to the loss of the aircraft? Seems like they plummeted a long way before recovery. I'll have to look in the books-I think it was a football charter. I don't blame the original poster for talking about it-safety is something we should always feel free to discuss.

edit-nevermind-that was an instrument error accident.

Yes, there was a 727 flight back in the 70's that had a very horrifying meeting with 'coffin corner' they continued to shot downwards when the crew lowered the gear and got the plane horizontal again. We're probably discussing the same flight.

 

[SLUF4]

well maybe that's right brokedash-I couldn't find the one I was looking for, but the encounter you are talking about sounds like what I was thinking of.

 

[AvroJockey]

BTW...Does anyone fly an aircraft that has an avionics suite that automatically corrects Mmo to protect for high speed buffet?

If it does, it would have to change the Mmo to variations in altitude, weight, and g loading. The only thing I've seen is changes to the Vmo to reflect a limiting Mmo.

 

[BoilerUP]

Can't speak for the Excel or the CRJ/ERJ, but at FL450 and mid-cruise weight (11.5k) the CJ2+ is at the 1.3G reference line when at the Mmo of .737.

I'd think as long as one is at or above that 1.3G reference on the buffet charts, the aircraft should be able to withstand a sudden bout of moderate turbulence without experiencing a mach-induced upset.

 

[CheeseDick]

what's mach trim do?

 

[Lynxman]

GJ tool? Ok deuche, that's why every pilot that has a commercial license that doesn't have a job is applying to GJ. Are they all tools? Get real clown.

Yup all tools!!

 

[DiverDriver]

Why? For stating a fact? *GASP* God forbid facts be posted on flightinfo!

Bottom line is that accidents in aviation are hardly associated with any one 'realm' of carriers: regionals, majors, cargo. They can, and have happened, at all 3 levels. Most recent now being the Fedex MD11 crash. Mesa had an Air Midwest B1900 go down, but that cannot be attributed to the pilots. The poor gal tried to do everything she could to save her plane... but an inproper elevator rigging by poor contract maintenance, and the general trend of Americans becoming fatter and fatter, sealed her fate. Other than that, Mesa has never lost a CRJ/ERJ in a fatality.

So why don't you back off, and give credit where it is due? I would happily fly in the back of a Mesa CRJ/ERJ anyday of the week.

Ok, just to debate you a little on the whole "fatal accident" metric for being a bad airline I ask you to read this NTSB report: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20011030X02159&key=1

Now, it was from 6 years ago and I also recognize that Mesa operates thousands of safe flights since then. But you don't have to have a fatal accident to make you raise your eyebrow and wonder if others operate in the same manner.

And after saying that I will acknowledge that other airlines have also had such incidents that make you raise your eyebrow. http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20071217X01939&key=1

 

[dooork]

Ok, just to debate you a little on the whole "fatal accident" metric for being a bad airline I ask you to read this NTSB report: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20011030X02159&key=1

Now, it was from 6 years ago and I also recognize that Mesa operates thousands of safe flights since then. But you don't have to have a fatal accident to make you raise your eyebrow and wonder if others operate in the same manner.

And after saying that I will acknowledge that other airlines have also had such incidents that make you raise your eyebrow. http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20071217X01939&key=1

Ridiculous. It is one thing to have a dummy do something like this....it is another to have a trend....thats what we are talking about.

 

[Dubya]

What's the real story about MESA? Their CLT base is very appealing and they are union.

PM if you like...It's very difficult to get the real story on here.

-

They suck.


Wait...
BEEPBEEPBADEEPBADEEPBEEEPBEEEPBADEEPBADEEEP
(newswire noise)

This just in. Breaking news from our National Dooshbag Taskforce Bureau (NDTB).

Gojet sucks. Full story at 10.


WNN

 

[AvroJockey]

what's mach trim do?

Automatically and gradually trims the tail-plane on transonic aircraft to adjust for the rearward change in center of pressure as a result of wing shocks at higher mach. Mach trim is more commonly found on swept-wing aircraft as they are more susceptible to rearward changes in CP because shockwaves start at the thicker wing root.

I think the 737 starts mach trimming at .615...someone correct me if my memory sucks.

It doesn't do anything for any abrupt shock stall and tuck though.

 

[AvroJockey]

Can't speak for the Excel or the CRJ/ERJ, but at FL450 and mid-cruise weight (11.5k) the CJ2+ is at the 1.3G reference line when at the Mmo of .737.

I'd think as long as one is at or above that 1.3G reference on the buffet charts, the aircraft should be able to withstand a sudden bout of moderate turbulence without experiencing a mach-induced upset.

I think you're right...1.3G chart is what I've used in the past, and I think it's pretty cool some avionics are starting to correct for this. The Excel doesn't, and at max weight (at takeoff), when at FL450 you can only go to .70 or .72 if I remember correctly (Mmo is .75).

 

[keri2000]

I've never flown the CRJ but every jet has buffet boundary charts which give you the low and high speed buffet boundary for weight, flight level, and g loading.

I would believe that the CRJ has a relatively large margin between high and low speed buffet at it max certified flight level (FL410, I believe) and weight, most transport category aircraft do. However, that doesn't mean you can go to .85 in all flight conditions. Anyone that flies a jet needs to pull out the AFM and take a look at these charts to get an idea what the general limits are, otherwise you're putting lives in danger.

Believe me, this is a real threat. We had a crew on the CE560XL with your mentality (beeper goes off at .75) and they were introduced to mach stall when they hit a little turbulence. Luckily no one was hurt.

BTW...every avionics suite that i've flown fails to accurately correct for high speed buffet boundary limits, so I wouldn't trust your beeper!

True. And at lower altitudes the hi speed buffet is almost always .85. At higher altitudes there isn't enough power to get close to that. Plus the 700 and I believe the 900 have an RVSM speed limit of .83 anyways.
Somehow I doubt the original poster was thumbing through their speed card to know if they where approaching any said buffet boundary so in the CRJ if it's not beeping at you their is a good chance you are not exceeding any.

 

[d.fitz]

When you feel the high altitude rolling motion and see airspeed close to max you do tend to get concerned

So, in an airplane you know nothing about, you "felt" a rolling motion and then noticed they were near Mmo and that led you to feel in danger?

I think there is a LARGE difference between a lear 35 based on a swiss fighter jet (which means minimal stability, for maximum maneuverability) and a modern day glass cockpit airliner designed to FAR part 23.

I'm not a fan of MESA as a company, but I am a fan of all my friends that are gracious enough to give me a ride... You should be too...

 

[stagger]

d.fitz

I never said I felt like I was in danger. Those are your words not mine. But I do know the feeling of high alt buffett. I have felt the buffett many times on purpose at high altitude in a previous job. In this case the f/o said to the capt. "What was that" and the capt said "just some chop". I very politely said it might have been something called mach buffett and thats when I pulled out an old flip chart of mine from my bag to show them what I was talking about. Simple as that

 

[DrewBlows]

d.fitz

I never said I felt like I was in danger. Those are your words not mine. But I do know the feeling of high alt buffett. I have felt the buffett many times on purpose at high altitude in a previous job. In this case the f/o said to the capt. "What was that" and the capt said "just some chop". I very politely said it might have been something called mach buffett and thats when I pulled out an old flip chart of mine from my bag to show them what I was talking about. Simple as that

What airplane, what altitude, and what speed. Perhaps if you provide details someone who has actually flown the airplane can verify your concern.

In my opinion it would be hard to notice a buffett with the high speed warning chirping in your ear. I'm certainly no expert in aerodynamics but the good people at Embraer and Bombardier are and I suspect they set limits at levels that won't cause a couple of over-exuberant pilots to soil the good name of their companies.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Stagger - can you provide some numbers? Altitude, Mach, Temp? What was the weather, where were they at? Just curious.

 

[viper548]

during certification the aircraft is required to fly at .07M above MMO. The CRJ is certified at .85, so it has been flown at .92, that does not make it OK to exceed any limitations. You just wont fall out of the sky if you momentarily exceed it.

 

[AvroJockey]

during certification the aircraft is required to fly at .07M above MMO. The CRJ is certified at .85, so it has been flown at .92, that does not make it OK to exceed any limitations. You just wont fall out of the sky if you momentarily exceed it.

Is this in smooth air though?

They design 1.3G Buffet boundary charts so there is margin in case you encounter unexpected turbulence.

The limit is not always Mmo (though it is for 95% of flights). You should be using 1.3G figures for some margin when you're high and heavy.

 

[AvroJockey]

I'm certainly no expert in aerodynamics but the good people at Embraer and Bombardier are and I suspect they set limits at levels that won't cause a couple of over-exuberant pilots to soil the good name of their companies.

Remember they're trying to sell airplanes too! When they make buffet boundary charts they assume pilots will use them.

 

[viper548]

Is this in smooth air though?

They design 1.3G Buffet boundary charts so there is margin in case you encounter unexpected turbulence.

The limit is not always Mmo (though it is for 95% of flights). You should be using 1.3G figures for some margin when you're high and heavy.

I don't know if it's done in smooth air but I would suspect so. Do any airlines use buffet boundary charts for the CRJ series? At skywest we don't.

 

[DrewBlows]

I don't know if it's done in smooth air but I would suspect so. Do any airlines use buffet boundary charts for the CRJ series? At skywest we don't.

You have some sort of chart that shows you the maximum altitude for a given weight. I think I read that you guys do some sort of fuel savings program, I'm guessing it gives you a maximum altitude?

 

[viper548]

You have some sort of chart that shows you the maximum altitude for a given weight. I think I read that you guys do some sort of fuel savings program, I'm guessing it gives you a maximum altitude?

We have a climb capability chart that gives us a maximum altitude for a given weight and temperature in with the speed cards