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Mesa and Freedom Air Pilots
- Thread starter ADG
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ADG said:
Yes and no. All Freedom pilots are still on the Freedom cert. Some senior Mesa pilots are now over there too (post contract), since 700 and 900 CAPT. pay is higher than -200 pay. All the -700's and -900's are still on the Freedom certificate. The Mesa certificate isn't approved for them yet.
At Mesa and HP, most definately. HP routinely refuses the JS to any pilot on the Freedom certificate, regardless of whether they went to Freedom before or after the contract, which means the most senior guys who held the line get hosed for actions they didn't support b/c they now fly under the Freedom certificate. Most other carriers don't seem to know the difference b/t Freedom and Mesa or care.
-Boo!
ADG states, "Although not officially scabs, they should be treated as such and I do not believe we should forget what they did."
Get real. When you're 70 and look back on your flying career, is this what you're really going to think is important? Grow up! You make it seem like they committed murder. Everyone needs to make a living somehow. You think what these guys did is going to affect the entire industry? Hardly.
Get real. When you're 70 and look back on your flying career, is this what you're really going to think is important? Grow up! You make it seem like they committed murder. Everyone needs to make a living somehow. You think what these guys did is going to affect the entire industry? Hardly.
Go back to the general board, eh? I've worked at a major and a regional, so you're not the only "expert" out there. I'm far from it, but I can give my opinion like the others. I love it when my pilot buddies complain about other airlines' contracts. Do you really think this contract or that contract affects your life at a different carrier?
bogberto
Heavy Metal Lounge Singer
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Amen, Bean. 185: hate to say it but you have a lot to learn.
See, it's quite difficult to get more days off, higher per diem, better payrates, and improved QOL when 85 people went to management's toy airline (read: union buster) and agreed to do it for nothing.
It frustrates me to hear about how some of the most junior Mesa FOs went to Freedumb because, in their opinion, their career wasn't moving fast enough.
Yeah. Now it's moving nowhere. I will never forget.
See, it's quite difficult to get more days off, higher per diem, better payrates, and improved QOL when 85 people went to management's toy airline (read: union buster) and agreed to do it for nothing.
It frustrates me to hear about how some of the most junior Mesa FOs went to Freedumb because, in their opinion, their career wasn't moving fast enough.
Yeah. Now it's moving nowhere. I will never forget.
bogberto - i wouldn't say the Mesa pilots are going nowhere with the number of new jets they getting. that's a lot of pilot hiring. i don't know HOW anyone can complain about that!!
you say i have a lot to learn, but i'm coming at you from a different angle - non-union, non-professional pilot. i have a different take on things.
you say i have a lot to learn, but i'm coming at you from a different angle - non-union, non-professional pilot. i have a different take on things.
C425Driver
Well-known member
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- 357
185Flyer,
The pilots who went to Freedumb did a lot to affect the industry. These people jumped ship to fly bigger planes at reduced wages and work rules. In other words, they lowered their worth as pilots. Mesa was now in a position to shift much of their flying to Freedumb. If that happened, Mesa pilots would be forced to either give up their jobs or shift themselves over to Freedumb for inferior pay rates and work rules. The only way that any of this could have been prevented at the time would be if Mesa pilots refused to fly for Freedumb. Now, at the same time that this was happening, Mesa pilots were in contract negotiations with management. To stop JO from outsourcing their jobs to Freedumb, Mesa pilots had to negotiate lower than industry standard payscales and work rules to get management to agree to put the Freedumb pilots on their seniority list and prevent jobs from being lost. How does this affect the rest of the industry? Other airline management negotiating teams now use the Mesa contract as the standard in which to bargain with. Mesa lowered the bar for the industry when they would have had the potential to raise it until the Freedumb pilots stepped up, and now the rest of us out there have to fight to raise that bar again. Mesa pilots fault? Not entirely. The morons who jumped ship to go fly a bigger plane fault? You bet.
You do have a lot to learn. Contracts at one carrier can have a direct affect on contracts at other carriers. It's called pattern bargaining and it goes on all the time. I've spoken with pilots from AWAC, ASA, ACA, Mesaba, just to name a few, and they all say that their managements are waiving the Mesa contract in their faces. Mesa can have all the new jets they want, but it isn't going to make the working conditions there any better without a decent contract.
You are right in that you have a right to your opinion and you have a right to express it. But try to have an open mind when people who live by these work rules every day try to enlighten you on these subjects. You have a different take on things because you've never worked and lived under a pilots CBA. We have a different take on this subject because we deal with these types of issues every day. I'm not at Mesa any more. I used to work there so I feel for these guys and I know how their contract affects the rest of us.
C425Driver
The pilots who went to Freedumb did a lot to affect the industry. These people jumped ship to fly bigger planes at reduced wages and work rules. In other words, they lowered their worth as pilots. Mesa was now in a position to shift much of their flying to Freedumb. If that happened, Mesa pilots would be forced to either give up their jobs or shift themselves over to Freedumb for inferior pay rates and work rules. The only way that any of this could have been prevented at the time would be if Mesa pilots refused to fly for Freedumb. Now, at the same time that this was happening, Mesa pilots were in contract negotiations with management. To stop JO from outsourcing their jobs to Freedumb, Mesa pilots had to negotiate lower than industry standard payscales and work rules to get management to agree to put the Freedumb pilots on their seniority list and prevent jobs from being lost. How does this affect the rest of the industry? Other airline management negotiating teams now use the Mesa contract as the standard in which to bargain with. Mesa lowered the bar for the industry when they would have had the potential to raise it until the Freedumb pilots stepped up, and now the rest of us out there have to fight to raise that bar again. Mesa pilots fault? Not entirely. The morons who jumped ship to go fly a bigger plane fault? You bet.
You do have a lot to learn. Contracts at one carrier can have a direct affect on contracts at other carriers. It's called pattern bargaining and it goes on all the time. I've spoken with pilots from AWAC, ASA, ACA, Mesaba, just to name a few, and they all say that their managements are waiving the Mesa contract in their faces. Mesa can have all the new jets they want, but it isn't going to make the working conditions there any better without a decent contract.
You are right in that you have a right to your opinion and you have a right to express it. But try to have an open mind when people who live by these work rules every day try to enlighten you on these subjects. You have a different take on things because you've never worked and lived under a pilots CBA. We have a different take on this subject because we deal with these types of issues every day. I'm not at Mesa any more. I used to work there so I feel for these guys and I know how their contract affects the rest of us.
C425Driver
bogberto
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185: the Freedumb pilots are going nowhere.
The Mesa pilots are just getting more RJ, which reduces the amount of mainline jobs, which means we're stuck here working at this company for a lot longer than any of us ever wanted.
I'd rather fly a 737 or 'Bus than sit in the RJ for the rest of my life.
The Mesa pilots are just getting more RJ, which reduces the amount of mainline jobs, which means we're stuck here working at this company for a lot longer than any of us ever wanted.
I'd rather fly a 737 or 'Bus than sit in the RJ for the rest of my life.
Boy, you guys can be harsh. I wish some of you would take the time to read the posts before spouting back with the typical fluff. Well, Mesa and Freedom will merge, so you can't really argue that one is better/worse off than the other. I don't know how you could argue that growth is bad for employees (read pilots and non-pilots) and the shareholders. No one wants to answer my question about this. Why would a regional pass on flying more jets?
Taking away mainline jobs? That's a whole other ballgame that I don't want to start.
Taking away mainline jobs? That's a whole other ballgame that I don't want to start.
bogberto
Heavy Metal Lounge Singer
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- 111
185flyer said:
OK, I'm not blasting you, I'm simply letting you know that you're not understanding this. I am a Mesa pilot, and we have a crappy new contract because of Freedumb. It was impossible for us to bargain for better wages, per diem, QOL, etc, when the Freedumb types were doing it for a lot less than what we wanted (which was also very affordable). When we signed the contract, we got the Freedomb aircraft back where they belong (at Mesa). Don't forget: Freedumb is and always has been part of Mesa Air Group. Siblings should not be used to fight against each other. That said, Mesa is worse off thanks to Freedom. Our per diem, our payrates, our days off, everything is bad because of Freedom.
How is growth bad? When there is ZERO quality of life to your job, and it's that way because management claims that it's a requirement of growth, that is bad. OK great so maybe I can be a Captain on a CR9. But that still means there will be an FO on that same aircraft who will be stuck in that right seat for a long time and at crappy wages. Are you really gaining anything when those new jobs you're creating are paying less than a cashier job at McDonalds? We say no, not for someone who has invested a lot of time and money into themselves.
No worries, the game has been going on for a long time. When we at Mesa heard about our CR7 and CR9 order in 2001, we were all excited about it. Now, many of us do not want them anymore. An aircraft that can hold 90 seats belongs at a mainline carrier, flown by mainline pilots, not 300 hour pilots.
But yes, that is a completely different ballgame for another time.
Hope this helps.
-B
CWASaab
Well... Not anymore
- Joined
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- 122
185 you really are quite incorrect.
What happened at Mesa with Freedom has had a tremendous impact in the negotiations at other carriers.
To be more specific, the company I work for, Mesaba Airlines, a wholly owned subsidiary of Mesaba Holdings (I think it is now going to be called MAIR Holdings) is 3 years into section 6 negotiations. Little progress is currently being made, despite having been under mediated negotiations for about a year now.
That is not Mesa's fault exactly, but our managment has said to the pilot group repeatedly during recurrent ground schools that our new contract must be competitive with Mesa. That would be a step backwards for us.
Our over-paid and under-educated Senior Leadership Team even went so far as to go out and purchase a non-ALPA airline. This appears obvious to us who work here as a threat that we are replaceable if we get too expensive, much like Freedom was to Mesa.
In the mean time this airline that our SLT claims is well run and a great opportunity has been bleeding our financial performance, to the tune of about 2 million a month. Their RASM is $.193 thanks to the EAS program, while their CASM is $.262. Yeah, thats one hell of a greatly run company, and such an opportunity.
Our Negotiators have faced this tactic by informing the Company, at the table, that without scope that eliminates the threat of an alter-ego, there is not going to be a ratification. I stand behind the Negotiating Team and the MEC 100% on this issue as do just about all of us here.
I know we are not the only pilot group hearing the "we must compete with Mesa" mantra from the executive offices, and we are not the only group facing an alter-ego. What happened at Mesa with Freedom has become the blueprint for all recent talks. Non-ALPA alter-ego threats have become the latest tactic to keep those flying small jets and turbo-props from acheiving livable wages.
What happened at Mesa with Freedom has had a tremendous impact in the negotiations at other carriers.
To be more specific, the company I work for, Mesaba Airlines, a wholly owned subsidiary of Mesaba Holdings (I think it is now going to be called MAIR Holdings) is 3 years into section 6 negotiations. Little progress is currently being made, despite having been under mediated negotiations for about a year now.
That is not Mesa's fault exactly, but our managment has said to the pilot group repeatedly during recurrent ground schools that our new contract must be competitive with Mesa. That would be a step backwards for us.
Our over-paid and under-educated Senior Leadership Team even went so far as to go out and purchase a non-ALPA airline. This appears obvious to us who work here as a threat that we are replaceable if we get too expensive, much like Freedom was to Mesa.
In the mean time this airline that our SLT claims is well run and a great opportunity has been bleeding our financial performance, to the tune of about 2 million a month. Their RASM is $.193 thanks to the EAS program, while their CASM is $.262. Yeah, thats one hell of a greatly run company, and such an opportunity.
Our Negotiators have faced this tactic by informing the Company, at the table, that without scope that eliminates the threat of an alter-ego, there is not going to be a ratification. I stand behind the Negotiating Team and the MEC 100% on this issue as do just about all of us here.
I know we are not the only pilot group hearing the "we must compete with Mesa" mantra from the executive offices, and we are not the only group facing an alter-ego. What happened at Mesa with Freedom has become the blueprint for all recent talks. Non-ALPA alter-ego threats have become the latest tactic to keep those flying small jets and turbo-props from acheiving livable wages.
CWASaab,
I can understand that management is going to use any tactic to get what it wants. "Low cost" seems to be the new game nowadays. I don't hear a lot of Southwest bashing out there, but WN also makes up for lower pay through great benefits, something Mesa might be lacking. A friend above said I was completely wrong in that the negotiations at one airline don't affect another. I do believe him now, but where has this so called "pattern negotiations" got the majors?? Each carrier topped the other one until everything came crashing down.
Each carrier's pilot group has to do what's best for themselves. HP has been in negotiations for several years. They want AMR or Delta pay, but it's never going to happen. They also want a pension. How can you ask for a pension when the rest of HP's employees don't have one? The non-pilot folks are in the same wage boat. If the pilots of HP are low paid, then the folks at the gate and at the lower levels of corporate are also lower paid. Not sure what you mean by under-educated? I busted my butt in grad school for an MBA, just like you busted your butt to make a career out of flying.
It is good to see management facing up to their own hypocrisies. AMR and Delta certainly felt the backlash of lavishing their top dogs with bonuses and guaranteed pensions. I'm on the corporate side, but I also fly for fun so I'm not out here to bash pilots.
Glad to have a level headed discussion.
I can understand that management is going to use any tactic to get what it wants. "Low cost" seems to be the new game nowadays. I don't hear a lot of Southwest bashing out there, but WN also makes up for lower pay through great benefits, something Mesa might be lacking. A friend above said I was completely wrong in that the negotiations at one airline don't affect another. I do believe him now, but where has this so called "pattern negotiations" got the majors?? Each carrier topped the other one until everything came crashing down.
Each carrier's pilot group has to do what's best for themselves. HP has been in negotiations for several years. They want AMR or Delta pay, but it's never going to happen. They also want a pension. How can you ask for a pension when the rest of HP's employees don't have one? The non-pilot folks are in the same wage boat. If the pilots of HP are low paid, then the folks at the gate and at the lower levels of corporate are also lower paid. Not sure what you mean by under-educated? I busted my butt in grad school for an MBA, just like you busted your butt to make a career out of flying.
It is good to see management facing up to their own hypocrisies. AMR and Delta certainly felt the backlash of lavishing their top dogs with bonuses and guaranteed pensions. I'm on the corporate side, but I also fly for fun so I'm not out here to bash pilots.
Glad to have a level headed discussion.
Brother Francis
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2002
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- 266
No worries, the game has been going on for a long time. When we at Mesa heard about our CR7 and CR9 order in 2001, we were all excited about it. Now, many of us do not want them anymore. An aircraft that can hold 90 seats belongs at a mainline carrier, flown by mainline pilots, not 300 hour pilots.
....but you will bid the aircraft right.
....but you will bid the aircraft right.
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