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Merger Intergration, DOH or not, your opnion

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Marty MCDU: how many MAX pilots were there versus how many at Air Wis? How did their relative DOH's compare, ie, was the resulting list more of a dovetail-looking list or were the vast majority of MAX guys clustered together? Was the integration settled by the pilots of both groups, Air Wis only, an arbitrator, or whom?

DOH might have been a good deal or a not so good deal for them. That's why I asked the questions.
 
Relative senority. I had 25% of the TWA list junior to me in 2001. That means I would have had about 3000+ junior to me at AA/TWA and would never have been furloughed.
 
Do not know the details, but I remember having Air Wisconsin guys on the jumpseat in DIA saying they were screwed, because they just put 150 or so pilots in front of them. Air Wisconsin was hiring at a brisk pace back then with fast upgrades. I think AWAC had a few hundred pilots back in the late 90's and just recalled their fuloughed pilots after their screw job by us. (United). I still feel bad for what happened over there. They got the big shaft. Thanks ALPA.

Marty
 
Do not know the details, but I remember having Air Wisconsin guys on the jumpseat in DIA saying they were screwed, because they just put 150 or so pilots in front of them.
Well, the devil is in the details. We all know that any pilot who sees anybody go ahead of him will complain about being screwed, DOH or not. The fact is that we're not in a position to objectively judge how badly we fare compared to the other guy.
 
Well, the devil is in the details. We all know that any pilot who sees anybody go ahead of him will complain about being screwed, DOH or not. The fact is that we're not in a position to objectively judge how badly we fare compared to the other guy.


I have never cared if a pilot ends up senior to me in a merger as long as the job they bring in is senior to me. Things being somewhat equal, pay scales, work rules, etc, a 737 captain should not be merged ahead of a 757 captain no matter how long each has been at their respective airline.

With that said, you have to take into consideration that some pilots chose to stay senior on junior equipment, or stay senior as a co pilot vs being a junior captain. But the idea is the same. A senior copilot in a 767 for example is a senior job, when you factor in QOL and potential for overtime pay not available to a junior pilot.
 
Can you give us some actual detail or some examples on that treatment?

Tejas

Tejas,

SWAPA "screwed over" the Muse/TranStar and Morris pilots because it was a full staple. Not that the Morris guys feel "screwed over" - they're all captains- which just proves the point that if the airline grows/expands and everyone advances, a staple is not necessarily a screw job. So I guess SWA is the only airline that can staple all they want, and nobody will ever feel screwed. But let's keep this quiet, ok? I don't want to put holes in anyone's theories here.
 
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DOH and Relative seniority both only work with a merger of equals. Eventually it comes back to carreer expectations and people getting screwed.

If a legacy bought it's commuter, would it be right for an old RJ captain with skeletons to take a 777 seat? UPS should have stapled the Challenge Air guys, but both DOH and relative would have been unfair. A 1-day UPS newhire has much higher expectations than a Challenge captain. Even with apparent equals it gets murky quick. What if ABX and Polar married? Almost every DC-9 FO makes more than their 747 Captains...what do you do?!
 
The best seniority integration plan is NO pre-set integration plan. Every marriage will be different. Each side needs to bring its trash to the table and let Darwinism do its thing.

BTW, SWA didn't screw over Transtar. They made them an offer that was rejected because the Transtar pilots got bad advice and thought that SWA was bluffing. In the end, they got nothing but the opportunity to interview if they wanted which many did. Every ex-Transtar pilot I've come across at SWA says they should have accepted the original offer.

As far as Morris goes, yes they were stapled, but there some adjustments. Morris Captains were pay protected as FO's so they were the highest paid SWA FO's in history. Morris FO's who didn't have type ratings were given them for free, also largely unprecedented. SWA pilots voluntarily waived the scope clause so that some Morris guys flew left seat for up to a year during the transition even though they were junior to SWA FO's on the master list. Also all Morris pilots, even those previously fired by SWA, were hired.

Notwithstanding the handful who sued (and lost), or the morons who thought they would have a better future at WestPac, the SWA/Morris conjoinment was one of the cleanest, smoothest, most mutually beneficial in the history of the industry.
 
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Its really a CRAP SHOOT. The Lucky guys win. Well, thats no way to go through life. If it was we would all be in a heap of shister. Reform needs to take place in the ranks of American Pilots as the industry remodels itself. We should all be working together to ensure the profession we have chosen continues to be observed as a worthy career for those that choose to follow. If that means we personally give up what we consider to be senority now then so be it. We as men decide the faith of our profession. Its time to look toward the future of this career field and stand strong for the future aviators to follow. National Senority is the best solution. Day One should begin Now. God Bless every aviator who is flying now and who has helped to build our system into the number one system in the WORLD.
 
.........not to mention that IF a national seniority were in place, It would be very difficult for one airline management to try and pay cut-rate wages due to the issue of loosing pilots to the higher paying airlines. In the end we could dictate wages (huge point) and also increase our job security.
"some" would take it on the chin temporarily, but after one or two short contract cycles we ALL would be better off.
God bless America.

...........................out!
 
.........not to mention that IF a national seniority were in place, It would be very difficult for one airline management to try and pay cut-rate wages due to the issue of loosing pilots to the higher paying airlines. In the end we could dictate wages (huge point) and also increase our job security.
"some" would take it on the chin temporarily, but after one or two short contract cycles we ALL would be better off.
God bless America.

...........................out!

All better off until a carrier like Eastern tanks and all those guys that happened to get hired before you are slotted in front of you for the next 20 years or so. My career should not suffer because someone elses carrier went Tango Uniform. I know it is a two way street but Ill take my chances.
 
some people just don't listen.....................or understand!

If you are just "all about me", then I don't even want to hear your self serving logic......I can hear that on any street corner.

.......................out!
 

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