Merger Intergration, DOH or not, your opnion

[TWA Dude]

Here's a radical idea:

The merger representatives shall carefully weigh all equities inherent in their merger situation. In joint session, the merger representatives should attempt to match equities to various methods of integration until a fair and equitable agreement is reached, keeping in mind the following goals, in no particular order:

a. Preserve jobs.
b. Avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other.
c. Maintain of improve pre-merger pay and standard of living.
d. Maintain or improve pre-merger pilot status.
e. Minimize detrimental changes to career expectations.

The fact is that DOH may or may not fit into the above goals depending on the demographics of the pilot groups. After all, if DOH was fair in every case it would be the staple of ALPA Merger Policy, wouldn't it?

What more needs to be said?

 

[HalinTexas]

Good luck on that one. Do you think that Mesa has the luxury of only hiring ATPs?

They will if they want to exist.

They get what they want now because pilots will work for them at what they pay/offer.

 

[HalinTexas]

Here's a radical idea:

The merger representatives shall carefully weigh all equities inherent in their merger situation. In joint session, the merger representatives should attempt to match equities to various methods of integration until a fair and equitable agreement is reached, keeping in mind the following goals, in no particular order:

a. Preserve jobs.
b. Avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other.
c. Maintain of improve pre-merger pay and standard of living.
d. Maintain or improve pre-merger pilot status.
e. Minimize detrimental changes to career expectations.

The fact is that DOH may or may not fit into the above goals depending on the demographics of the pilot groups. After all, if DOH was fair in every case it would be the staple of ALPA Merger Policy, wouldn't it?

What more needs to be said?

This is essentially the ALPA merger policy. It didn't work for TWA, because they didn't push for it. It hasn't been so easy at AWA/USA. How many months have the two unions been negotiating? See my point? It's not ironclad. The AFA groups probably already have an agreement because AFA told them how it was going to be.

The above policies in blue will become increasingly difficuldt to apply if the present merger rate continues.

 

[TWA Dude]

This is essentially the ALPA merger policy.

Actually, it is ALPA Merger Policy, quoted from the by-laws. What I left out was that it goes to binding arbitration if no agreement is reached.

It didn't work for TWA, because they didn't push for it.

What planet have you been living on? TWA was coerced into giving up its successorship rights under threat of abrogation of our entire contract. "Pushing for it" wasn't an option.

It hasn't been so easy at AWA/USA. How many months have the two unions been negotiating?

I don't think there was more than a week of actual negotiations before they gave up.

See my point? It's not ironclad.

No, I'm afraid I don't see your point at all. "Fair and equitable" can only be judged by a neutral party. And that neutral must abide by the tenets of ALPA Merger Policy as outlined above.

The AFA groups probably already have an agreement because AFA told them how it was going to be.

AFA has a policy of DOH integration. No agreement was necessary and it's not for me to judge whether that's fair or not.

The above policies in blue will become increasingly difficuldt to apply if the present merger rate continues.

Not if there's still arbitrators available.

 

[FNG_that's me]

Dream on with your analogy. The things you compare are very different indeed, I won't pretend to be a military aviator, but there is a vast difference in the two worlds.

Wings=ATP, you must have been sniffing glue!

P.S. This was not meant as a dig against the military flyers, merely my opinion on the particular issue referenced.

D and everyone else,

Don't confuse what I've typed with what I think should(or would) be the result. Mostly, as you'll see from all the posts, every opinion is different. Most are based on what the poster has done. Hired at 23 at GoJets? They think 'date of 1st 121 job' is best. Spend 25 years in the Air Force? They think 'Wings' is fairest. And so on. I mean try to get the new-hire at Go and the new-hire at UPS to agree that they should have the same seniority.

We don't need a national seniority list, we need a national union. Oh wait, we have one..alas, many folks choose not to be members. They are free to do that; but keep in mind, labor will always compete against each other if it is not united nationally. You can't have fair and equal labor relations if you're all trying to put each other's companies out of business.

Good luck with the NSL, if that's what you really want. I choose not to waste too much energy on an imposibility.

 

[AA717driver]

TWAdude--I think HalinTexas meant that ALPA didn't push for their merger policy to be used. If he didn't mean that, well then, your response is correct. TC

 

[TWA Dude]

TWAdude--I think HalinTexas meant that ALPA didn't push for their merger policy to be used. If he didn't mean that, well then, your response is correct. TC

Oh. You might be right. Regardless, lets sue ALPA! (tee hee hee)

 

[Benhuntn]

The company doing the buying should set the rules and then staple the bought company to the bottom to protect their current pilots who worked to earn the money that enabled the purchase in the first place.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

This is essentially the ALPA merger policy. It hasn't been so easy at AWA/USA. How many months have the two unions been negotiating? See my point?

Let's not forget that Mr Nicolau was not available for many of those months...hence, the reason for most of the delay.

Now in addition, if the 2 parties cannot reach an agreement...then the ALPA merger policy has made allowances for that....in the form of an arbitrator....and they are there now....

Tejas

 

[Flopgut]

The company doing the buying should set the rules and then staple the bought company to the bottom to protect their current pilots who worked to earn the money that enabled the purchase in the first place.

Legacy employees work real hard only to have DOJ say NO WAY! Cactus should probably have been bought by UAL years ago, not be trying to buy DAL now. YOUR LCC airline (SWA) gets a free market, most others don't.

Percentage integration has it's possible problems too people. UAL pilots faced the USAir merger with a plan to show UAL staffing as though the top 1000 (or so) pilots were retired. They were going to fast forward about five years. The deck can get stacked against you!

 

[bestpilot]

Whatever the method of integration, stapling should never be allowed.

73

Duude! Ifn you be one a dem Native Americans and stuff, dats freaking cool, my brother with some sweet kharma, butz somma yer loooney tooney ole catz dontz belieeve dat fer a minnit!

 

[bestpilot]

DOH is the only fair way to merge seniority.

Duuude? Whatttevvver you smokin, you jus gotzsta gimmie a puff, cause you mus be Hal, freakimg Hal Lou Sin8tin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



AAAAAAWWWW YYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!

You, freaking me, an ole Yougurtz were like classmates an stuff at like Midwest Express and stuff. Ole Chuckie goes to dat Midwest in like 1995 and likes I goes to da Tranny in like 2004.

Ifn you been at da Middie Expresso fer like fiddeen years an stuff, and like da Tranny buys Express and Midwest and stuff, den like you gonna be #1 on dat list an stufff???????? CrrrrrrrrrAAYYYYzzzzzeeeeeeee!

Duude, Capn Chuckie gonna be like your Effo and stuff?

DOH? No wonders why my home boyeee Homer Simpson sayz dat all da time?

Iz it jus me or do Homer and Jessica Simpson look alike??????? Ty Guy gotz a ting fer ole Homer, Daisy Duke, and jelly donuts, but likez I aintz tellin, cauze if I say, ole Ty Guy aintz invitin me to da party!


Ole Chuckie's invited tooo, bring da General!

 

[Doug Parker]

.


Hey MCDU,

If you pronounce MCDU as MacDoo, then my message to you and your DOH is FCU........


just remember.............. "As of the merger announcement, US Airways was down to 26 days of cash. That cash decline continued through closing of the merger despite its sale of assets to Eastshore Aviation LLC (Republic Airlines) for $125 million. By September 2005, just prior to the transaction closing, US Airways was down to five days of cash."

.​

 

[ivauir]

Wings=ATP, you must have been sniffing glue!

Wings are a much bigger deal than ATP. Not a ding against civilian flyers, just the truth.

 

[airdog757]

relative seniority with possible fences on equip. and dom.

 

[Pilotbob3]

i vote for whatever method benefits me most...to hell with the rest of you!

 

[Phrogs4ever]

Relative seniority makes most sense

Within any given airline, there is a certain expectation of QOL and pay options at the various seniorities. There is life at 90%, life at 50%, and life at 10%. If you looked at base/aircraft/seat/schedule ability/QOL at different airlines, they would not be that different at the same seniority. After any merger, the individual pilot should not feet much affect from the integration of lists. I think that a relative seniority merge with a two or three year fence around aircraft is the most painless and fair. That gives each pilot group time to do some last minute shuffling before the other group gets to bid into the other's bases and aircraft.

I don't know how career expectations can be quantified. How many people have had rosey career expectations only to go belly up, get furloughed, merged, go out of business due to a bad accident, etc. Just like choosing which job to take, you will only know what your career expectation really was when you retire. I certainly have high expectations for our next contract, doesn't mean we're going to get it.

Looking at UAL and CAL as an example. UAL has a fewer number and percentage of retirements over the next five years, still has pilots furloughed, and no new aircraft on the way (per apc.com). CAL has a larger number and percentage of retirements, vigorous hiring, and receiving 65 aircraft through 2009. With relative seniority integration, UAL pilots would benefit from the accelerated movement at the top due to CAL's retirements. There would be some slow down for the CAL new hires because the percentage of retirements is slightly less, but there would be more opportunity for widebody flying and more base options. It should be expected that with one pilot group a little stagnant and the other is moving pretty well, the new combined list would be somewhere in the middle. I'm pretty sure that a quick upgrade in Newark would still be there if anyone wants it though. Noone gets furloughed, staffing adjustments through attrition only. Noone ever gets bumped out of base, equipment, or seat. Overall, noone's life gets turned upside down, noone gets over on the other group. And best of all...CAL can dump PBS!

The merger should not cause any animosity between pilot groups whatsoever. Their focus should be creating a strong, unified front from which they can negotiate their first contract. Said contract should be ratified before the fences get lifted.

 

[jetflier]

Phrogs,

Good reason to only negotiate a two year agreement MAX....you never know when management might try to pull a fast one...

 

[ironspud]

Well, how about 3 NSN's. When you "move up" to the next level you fall to the bottom of that level.

Bottom tier: The "itty-bitties". RJ and prop.
Middle tier: The LCC's. BJ wannabe's.
Top tier: The "looking over their shoulders with fear" group.

Datildoit.

 

[xanderman]

aha!!!

i vote for whatever method benefits me most...to hell with the rest of you!

Ladies and Gentlemen we have a winner!!

In the honesty contest anyhow....

Andy

 

[xanderman]

funny stuff

.


Hey MCDU,

If you pronounce MCDU as MacDoo, then my message to you and your DOH is FCU........


just remember.............. "As of the merger announcement, US Airways was down to 26 days of cash. That cash decline continued through closing of the merger despite its sale of assets to Eastshore Aviation LLC (Republic Airlines) for $125 million. By September 2005, just prior to the transaction closing, US Airways was down to five days of cash."

.​

That was damn funny Dougy!! LMAO

Andy

 

[kwick]

If you buy an airline you must respect the seniority of the airline you are buying. OTHERWISE don't buy them! You are acquiring an asset with all it's pluses and minuses! Date of hire or don't buy them. That simple. Fences can protect seats and domiciles of the junior carrier. I lost all respect for Piedmont Airlines when they bought another airline and stapled them, and then got date of hire with US Air. I hope Southwest finally pays for their terrible treatment of their employees that they acquired through mergers. If Herb had any balls he would fix it , otherwise just drown yourself in Wild Turkey.

 

[pipe]

Nothing is ever fair and equitable. The company that gets acquired/merged is always screwed. Probably the way it should be...

A national seniority list is usually wanted by people that work for a crappy company. Just my opinion...

Getting screwed because their CEO is better at lining up smoke and mirror financing than yours is hardly the way it should be.

Career expectations are unquantifiable. Realistically an airline pilot has career expectations of some raises, some good contracts, some expansion, etc.. They also have expectations of some concessionary contracts, some furloughs, and some shrinkage. Only one airline has done other than this in the last 30 years.

DOH - HP/US=HP gets screwed
DOH - CO/UA=CO gets screwed
DOH - AA/TW=AA gets screwed (I can't believe I just typed that)

STAPLE - One group is randomly screwed (there, I feel better now)

Relative seniority is the only reasonable answer. Should be national policy.

PIPE

 

[Mach8Forest]

Whatever the method of integration, stapling should never be allowed.

73

Why don't you just say? "PULL THE ROPE UP, IM ONBOARD!
Mach8

 

[aa73]

Why don't you just say? "PULL THE ROPE UP, IM ONBOARD!
Mach8

Only if you say "ARE YOU THREATENING ME???" in your best Cornholio voice!

:beer:

 

[Wesb737fo]

If you buy an airline you must respect the seniority of the airline you are buying. OTHERWISE don't buy them! You are acquiring an asset with all it's pluses and minuses! Date of hire or don't buy them. That simple. ...

Respect the seniority of the airline you are buying....hmmm....I'm sure that's at the top of the list of things management considers before buying another airline. Yeah... I'm sure Herb is gonna lose sleep. How rich is that guy?

I know the horse has been beat to death but wouldn't DOH for the HP buyout of US put every pilot at US at the top of the list?

 

[TWA Dude]

I know the horse has been beat to death but wouldn't DOH for the HP buyout of US put every pilot at US at the top of the list?

Not every one of them, just 2/3 of them. The US argument is that their higher retirement rate makes up for it. Of course the problem with that is it makes 2/3 of the AWA list furlough fodder. I happen to know all about that.

 

[Vne]

DOH - AA/TW=AA gets screwed (I can't believe I just typed that)

STAPLE - One group is randomly screwed (there, I feel better now)

AA/TWA 2400(TW) of 12000(AA) = 2% Not much of a screwing even at DOH

Staple- whats "randomly" got to do with it.
:beer:

 

[Tejas-Jet]

I hope Southwest finally pays for their terrible treatment of their employees that they acquired through mergers.

Can you give us some actual detail or some examples on that treatment?

Tejas

 

[MCDU]

Anybody remember Mountainairexpress. (MAX )out of Denver flying the D328. Well they pretty much went out of business when they lost their flying for Western Pacific back in 1998. They then got bought by Air Wisconsin and all their pilots got date of hire.

Marty