MDA-RP transaction

[stb]

I'm sitting in the

crashpad bored staring at the walls.

I was on a roll, 30 minutes.

 

[FlamingFUPA]

On a roll indeed.

 

[surplus1]

I am not sure what you mean by "give up your seniority". All J4J pilots (cpt or f/o) remain in their seniority position in all U bases they serve. Thus any pilot senior on the seniority list when they upgrade go ahead of all the J4J Captains.

I'll try to explain what you don't seem to understand. When a pilot, hired after another pilot, is permitted to occupy a left seat before the pilot that was hired first, you have relinquished your seniority. The fact that this "captain" has a higher number is irrelevant. His number can't hold the seat that he occupies unless you give up you seniority rights to him. Every left seat occupied by a J4J pilot is a left seat that should have been occupied by the more senior CHQ pilot. If you don't see that as giving up your seniority, then you don't understand the meaning of seniority. A "number" on the list has no value if you cannot use it.

How do you make up for the loss in pay suffered by the "senior" CHQ pilot who was forced to give up the left seat to a junior U pilot? If he has to wait another year to upgrade because his slot is occupied by a U pilot, how much money does that cost him?

Also what J4J did was allow us to grow and it also allowed us to help pilots out of work. How can you keep bashing that?

Do you really expect me to believe that you accepted J4J because you wanted to "help U pilots" by screwing your own pilots? Like you said, you sold the seniority and the upgrades of your junior pilots for growth. If it walks like a duck .... you know the rest.

You were, in effect, forced to do it because the U pilots screwed you by making your company create an alter ego airline. How much money do you think that cost every CHQ pilot when you were forced to accept a lesser contract to stop the alter ego?

After the alter ego (Republic) was created I agree that you had to do something to stop it. However, the fact remains that ALPA and the U pilots cost you and the pilots of every other airline they forced that crap on, to lose hundreds of thousands of dollars in pay. The ONLY thing that saved some of you was the fact that most U pilots didn't accept the jobs that you were forced to give them with super seniority.

It was a win - win situation for CHQ pilots and unemployed U pilots.

Perhaps you think J4J was a win-win deal. I think it was one of the greatest injustices ever perpetrated by a labor union, against other union pilots most of whom, unlike you guys at CHQ, were represented by the same union (ALPA). They played you for suckers (along with a whole lot of other regional pilots).

The Mesa pilots were the first to buy that BS. Why, because they had to deal with an alter ego as well. They blame the few pilots that went to Freedom but the truth is there would never have been a Freedom were it not for ALPA's irrational scope and the J4J garbage. The successful Freedom gambit resulted in the follow up of Republic and the latest copy called GJ. The U pilots have screwed every regional they had a chance to: PDT, ALG, PSA, MES, TSA and you.

ALPA now wails against GJ and it should but that doesn't change the fact that there would have been no Freedom, no Republic and no GJ were it not for the actions of ALPA and the copy-cat APA. These alter ego monsters are the Frankensteins of ALPA's creation.

Our J4J deal is for 32 airframes which will include most if not all the MDA 170's. Again this is a win-win for CHQ/RP pilots, and at least 50% of MDA pilots.

It's a win for your company to buy those airplanes, gates, etc. Smart move on the part of your management. It is also a win for the U pilots if they get half of the seats, especially the captain slots. It is not a win for CHQ/RP pilots if you have to give away 1/2 of the resulting captain positions. That is a loss for you no matter how you spin it.

I have no objection at all to your company offering to hire U pilots from MDA in preference to pilots off the street. It would be a very nice gesture if you could get Bedford to do that. However, when you are obliged to give them 50% of the captain vacancies that result from the purchase of airplanes, by your company, they are screwing you and you are allowing yourselves to be screwed. That's exactly what you did with J4J. Preferential hiring - no problem. Super seniority = lousy deal for you, win for them.

This most recent acquisition of MDA airplanes is not a merger and it is not the acquisition of another airline. It is a simple sale of assets by a bankrupt company and the purchase of those assets by a healthy company.

I do feel sorry for the U pilots affected. But, they are not entitled to anything because of it. Why don't you ask those U pilots how many rEAL pilots they agreed to hire when their company bought the 757's from EAL? I'm sorry, but they deserve no more than they gave when they were in the drivers seat in a very similar situation, i.e., nothing. When we don't learn from history it repeats itself.

As for the fellow that made reference to an arbitrator --- there is no arbitrator in an asset sale. There's nothing to arbitrate; this is not a merger, and even if it was, the very best they could expect would be Allegheny/Mohawk since you do not belong to the same union.

If we vote to allow more than 32 airframes when that time comes, more MDA pilots will get jobs as well.

You can vote for whatever you choose as I'm sure you will. If you want to hire all the MDA pilots and they accept the job, that's fine and would be nice. However, not one of them should get a left seat in preference to any Republic/CHQ pilot who is qualified to upgrade. Vote for that and it just makes you a sucker twice.

So please before you bash CHQ/RP/S5 again, explain how your company has helped Furloughed U pilots.

My company hired lots of furloughed pilots, some of which came from U and some from several other airlines. In fact most furloughed pilots that chose to apply were hired. All of them got numbers based on their DOH with my airline. Not one of them got a captain's seat in preference to any of our own pilots. We feel no remorse whatever because of that. That's how the system is supposed to work and that is how it did work.

We asked our company to give preference to furloughed pilots in its hiring and our company did. Those that wanted and expected preferential treatment did not get it. ALL furloughed pilots that we hired were treated equally, regardless of their previous place of employment. That some thought they had a "right" to preferential treatment is their problem, not ours. Nobody has any more "right" at our airline than we have at their airline.

Do you actually believe that if we had been furloughed any one of them was going to give any one of us a captain's seat out of seniority? The answer to that is not no, it is he!! NO and we both know it. We would not expect that and they should not expect it either. Evidently you folks (and several others like you) don't seem to understand that.

When you talk about win-win it means that I give you equal value for what you give me. In this case U pilots are not giving you anything. Your company is not buying these airplanes with their money. Therefore, if you give them your captain seats it is win-lose, and you are the losers. That makes no sense to me.

Remember: You don't get paid what your worth, you get paid what you negotiate!

With that I agree completely. I don't have a problem with what you are paid, you did the best you could.

I do have a problem with the J4J stuff and I think you got "taken to the cleaners" on that deal. So did everyone else that agreed to it. Either you're completely naive or you were completely outsmarted. In this zoo, sometimes you have to give up some pay to keep your flying. I don't like it, but that's how it is. Once somebody caves, the dominoes take effect. Nevertheless, nobody with a brain should ever give up the benefits of his seniority unless there is a merger.

Just my opinion.

 

[DoinTime]

This most recent acquisition of MDA airplanes is not a merger and it is not the acquisition of another airline. It is a simple sale of assets by a bankrupt company and the purchase of those assets by a healthy company.

I do feel sorry for the U pilots affected. But, they are not entitled to anything because of it. Why don't you ask those U pilots how many rEAL pilots they agreed to hire when their company bought the 757's from EAL? I'm sorry, but they deserve no more than they gave when they were in the drivers seat in a very similar situation, i.e., nothing. When we don't learn from history it repeats itself.

Surplus, I thought you were smarter than that. What we have here is a fragmentation. Your example of UAL and EAL is bunk as EAL had been shut down and liquidated. A better example would be when Pan Am sold UAL their pacific route network. In the deal came 14 747's as well as pilots to staff them.

 

[Mike15601]

Just on a side note, I did the J4J thing at MESA. About 120 something guys from Airways went over. Out of that 120, in a little over a year (15 months)110 of them quit and went elsewhere. We had a "confirmed escape list" posted in op's that we signed when we bailed. The attrition rate seemed to average about 6-7 per month. Quite a few went to Cathay Pacific. Some to Fed Ex, Southwest, Jet Blue, World, Net Jets, Net Jets International, Flight Safety, etc..etc. Pretty much the whole spectrum of aviation. MDA has seen similar numbers (5-7 per month). Last month alone MDA lost 5 check airman to Jet Blue. If guys do come over to Republic for the J4J thing or whatever I can assure you the bulk of them will not be around for long just like MESA. There are just better jobs elsewhere and 99% of the guys and gals are actively pursuing them. Overall at MESA, they ended up with a lot of extra jets, 95+% J4J's leaving in very short order and many of their F/O's upgrading. I think it was a win win for both sides. Just my thoughts.

 

[410dude]

If I had a dollar for every time that I've heard that exact same line used by a regional pilot, I would litterally be a millionaire! It's quite sad the watching the HUGE ego's of some of my coworkers and other regional pilots. Face reality guys, we are REGIONAL pilots flying or soon to be flying aircraft that should be at the MAINLINE and flying them for $hit wages. Regardless of how COOL you think you are because you drive a shiny new RJ, you/we are the LAUGHING STOCK of aviation.

 

[dav8or]

I'm sure your dream consists of deadheading on a mainline flight then hearing the PA, is there a pilot on board, We need one to fly the plane your our last hope.
You land the plane save everyone and the mainline CEO calls your cellphone and offers you a job on the spot.

I'ld take that job but only if I could be #1 on the seniority lists

 

[surplus1]

Surplus, I thought you were smarter than that. What we have here is a fragmentation. Your example of UAL and EAL is bunk as EAL had been shut down and liquidated. A better example would be when Pan Am sold UAL their pacific route network. In the deal came 14 747's as well as pilots to staff them.

First of all I never mentioned UAL. "U" is USAirways, not UAL.

"Fragmentation" is an ALPA concept and one that has never been implemented in accordance with its intent. In the UAL/PanAm deal the integration was based on the good will of the UAL pilots, not on the policy. UAL also managed to hire hundreds of rEAL pilots, again due to the good will of the UAL pilots and NOT due to any ALPA policy. Yes, EAL was "liquidated" and that is exactly what is happening to MDA; it has been liquidated and Republic is buying its airplanes and a few other goodies, not the airline (which doesn't even have its own operating certificate). In fact, there is no such airline as MDA. It's just a name and it operates on the USAirways certificate. It is not a separate entity.

ALPA also has what it calls an "alter ego" policy, which is selectively applied and which has been neutered (at the request of the major airlines) so as to be completely meaningless. When the alter-ego is a "regional" ALPA actively promotes its creation in contradiction of its own alleged policy.

The MDA pilots are actually USAirways pilots. MDA operates under the USAirways certificate. If the U/MDA pilots have a "case" at all it is with America West, not CHQ/RP. There is a merger between AWA and U and that is where the U pilots should be integrated, not at Republic. When push comes to shove, I doubt you'll find the AWA pilots willing to integrate the U pilots that work for MDA if they can avoid it in any possible way. Let's see how they respond and let's see what ALPA will do for the MDA people with AWA.

I think you're about to get a full dose of reality.

 

[J32driver]

and while learning to fly this self-proclaimed "mainline" 170/190 not only do you not get paid the first month, you get to have a roomate in tiny hotel room from indoc all the way to the checkride. nice when your roomates sim gets done at 3 AM....mainline airplane for CFI pay.

I have already submitted my next 3 votes on the contract----no, no, and no...

Now weren't you just in a different thread telling us how much better life was at CHQ? Sounds like a bit of different story on this thread.

Those pay rates that were posted... was that $61.97 for the 1st 5 years as a Captain with no raise? If so... I'm making more to fly a 50 seater than you guys would get to fly the 190. Thats just wrong!

 

[aewanabe]

Nope. That's first year captain pay on the 190. 5 year scales on the 170/190 are 67.61 and 74.37 respectively. Where'd you hear the no raise part? Scales still suck, though.

 

[StarChecker]

So Mr. Star Checker, you can have your shiny new third world country jet, walking around the airport "looking" for StarBucks wearing your dad's 1980's Top Gun Tom Cruise signature in the lense RayBans, trying to pick up women waiting to repeat Top Gun lines as," I'm Capt. Star Checker... thats right I'm dangerous." You actually bought a StarBucks cup for 25 cents three weeks ago (a new record) and drinking airplane coffee out of it while strolling the airport for "hot chicks" waiting for passengers to ask,"How do you get to baggage claim?" while handing them an airline comment card already filled out by you, about your excellent customer service.
You uniform consists of two pilot shirts with stains in the armpits and one pair of uniform pants from Wal-Mart with the iron burns on the leg and staples for heims. Not only do your socks have holes in them, they get wet because of the holes in the sides and bottom of your shoes. Your hat is 3 sizes bigger than it should be and you tuck your ears in it. (See Barney from Andy Griffen) You wear you jacket in the summer because it hides the yellow armpit stains but you dont notice the white rings under the jackets armpit.
At your overnight, you grab a big bag of peanuts, pretzels etc off the plane for dinner. Then get to your overnight at the Motel 6 and dont tip the driver. While at the Motel 6, you take the remote battery, a couple of lightbulbs then if your lucky, the maid is to busy to notice you ransacking her cart for extra shampoo, Jergans hand lotion, soap, towels, sheets and pens and paper to stock "your" shinny new jet to write down the ATIS/Clearence on your Sporty's kneeboard. The you call the Chief Pilot and tell him you stocked the plane and you will be over later in the week to cut his grass and paint his house.
In the hotel, you call the office desk and complain they dont have The Wings Channel or The Military Channel. Then call scheduling and ask to fly on your days -off while you take your logbook out and log your "Heavy Iron" jet time with that .0001 actual instrument. [ok most of us do the logbook thing for the first 6 months of turbo-prop/jet time.]
Then you get the SCAB list out and crossout the guys that turn 60. You stand in the mirror and senerio the dream of confronting a SCAB when he asks you for a jumpseat. What looks better, looking over the top of the sunglasses or pulling the sunglasses off in anger?
Then you call some girl (cousin) that you told your a Captain for Delta, American, Continental or USAirways and forgot to include Connection, Eagle or Express. You tell her how you had to take the airplane controls away from the Captain because "things werent going very well and you had to save everyones life".
Finally you lay down to go to sleep and take your sunglasses off till tommorrow next to the alarm clock.
I'm sure your dream consists of deadheading on a mainline flight then hearing the PA, is there a pilot on board, We need one to fly the plane your our last hope.
You land the plane save everyone and the mainline CEO calls your cellphone and offers you a job on the spot.
I could go on but I've spent enough time on this...

Ok one more..

Whats the difference between a good hotel and a great hotel?

Hotel supplied Jergens hand lotion

The fact that you wasted time in your life to type all that is response enough.

Enjoy that lotion.

 

[WSurf]

Yea, those rates are weak! Considering a PDT 5 Year Capt. makes 56.00hr on a Dash 8 aircraft (and with the work rules does pretty well). Good luck on getting better payrates!

 

[stb]

Bored sitting in the crashpad

The fact that you wasted time in your life to type all that is response enough.
Enjoy that lotion.

I'm sure I was atleast 70% correct.
Your mother and I did enjoy the lotion.
Tell her I'll call her later.

 

[StarChecker]

I'm sure I was atleast 70% correct.
Your mother and I did enjoy the lotion.
Tell her I'll call her later.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ....