MDA Arbitration update???

[fly5boy7]

Hey there everyone.

I don't post too much on here, but I felt worthy just to throw out a neutral point for consideration before bashing CHQ FO's as "whiny" about the whole integration thing.

Every needs to remember that each single pilot on any company's seniority list has thier own individual story. So to label an entire group before knowing the individuals is pretty low.

To make a long story short, at LEAST half of the FO's at CHQ the past 12 months have been furloughed from other respectable regional carriers, some actually from a few majors. So, many of us have put in 3-5 years as a regional jet FO and are currently working on our 5th-7th year before upgrading- at a regional. (In my personal opinion it's going to be a little slower than people are predicting- but that is a whole other thing.)

So, for those calling the entire group "whiners" about 6-8 month backup in upgrades- well, some people are just getting tired of the 5-7 year wait at a regional.

The arbitrator hath spoke, it's water under the bridge- welcome Shuttle guys. Let's all at least make this a fun place to work while WE ALL wait for the upgrades and greener pastures.

Happy Holidays
-DK

 

[BenderGonzales]

Ok DK

OK DK. Let's talk about upgrade time and greener pastures.

First of all, let's put all of the cards on the table. 5-7 years is not a long time.

In years past upgrade time at some major airlines have spanned decades. "Sure," you're thinking, "but those are MAJOR airlines. This is a regional."

True, but consider this. In the 80s and 90s the entry-level equipment at most major airlines was the 80-120 seat product. The DC9, F28, F100, Bac 1-11, 737-200, BAC146, etc.

Today, that product is gone. It has been replaced by the "regional jet" family of aircraft. The course of that replacement has generated EXTREMELY fast upgrades at the regionals to the benefit of many regional pilots.

Once that replacement concludes it is reasonable to expect that "growth" at the 50-120 seat market will be relatively stagnent. Both carriers - the regional and the major - will have reached equilibrium.

Upgrade times will naturally increase... and I think that is what we're beginning to see now. The end of the 3 year upgrades and the return of the 5-10 year upgrades that were seen in years past. (Piedmont, Allegheny, Eagle in the mid-90s)

There is, however, 1 exception. In years past the majors would hire and absorb regional pilots which, in turn, created upgrade opportunities at the regionals.

Today that might not occur for a variety of reasons.

#1. Thousands of furloughees need to be absorbed.
#2. The entry-level equipment at the majors no longer exists. Majors requirer fewer pilots to be fully staffed.
#3. Lower compensation, reduced benefits, reduced retirement, reduced quality-of-life all make the traditional "major" job less appealing.
#4. Those companies that ARE hiring are extremely competitive because they CAN be. (Southwest, FedEx, UPS)

All of this tends to create a perfect storm for regional airline upgrades. The regionals have, in their own right, become career-airlines. I believe in the next several years we will see upgrade times at large regionals stretch well beyond that magic "5 year" mark.

Will pilots stand for it? Most likely. What choice do they have? They are handcuffed to this profession. Why else would 20 year furloughees from US Airways tolerate the hand they've been dealt? They simply have little choice. Most pilots have no other marketable skills.

So I have no sympathy for people who complain about the length of their upgrade. The regional-jet along with the decline of the major-airlines has created a B-scale career that most pilots are only now beginning to get used to.

In the years to come I believe we'll see only a small fraction of pilots leave the regionals to go to "greener pastures". Most will be forced to make their careers in the 50-120 seat airplanes they wanted so badly... and many will make the right-seat home for the better part of a decade.

 

[fly5boy7]

Hey man,

I agree with your post 100%. Honestly. I was just making a point to the people who think that everyone at CHQ are 6-month, CFI, 600 hr wonder-boys. I just wanted to shed a little light in that area.

I agree with EVERYTHING you said- 100%.

DK

 

[fly5boy7]

Not sure why the thumbs down thingy though- still trying to figure that out.

 

[SlapShot]

The one thing I do not understand about the whole Chautauqua/Shuttle merger is this.

Every Chautauqua captain I have met since the arbitrator’s ruling has said something to the effect of “sorry man. I never thought something like that would happen to you. Its not fair.” Which makes me think it was the F/Os making the stink about the merger of the lists. However, the proposal that the Chautauqua MEC presented to the arbitrator and eventually won still screwed over the F/Os on the Chautauqua list in addition to the 87 Shuttle guys. So WHY was that what they put together? I understand the Chautauqua MEC’s job is to protect the jobs of their membership but what they did was still screw the junior guy and now create a volatile situation on the flightdeck.


Now the MDA ruling is going to create similar problems on the Republic certificate. I know we are all professionals but I will guarantee there will be some animosity up there. I do not think it will get in the way of doing our jobs, but I do think it will affect the morale. Whether it is on a layover or in a crew room, this has created a company divided. The 87 Shuttle guys are just a drop in the bucket compared to 1,300 Chautauqua pilots, but the additional j4j guys are just additional fuel for the fire.


I know some people on this board are going to say “if you are not happy then leave”, however it is not that simple for some of us. The SAAB captains have to sign a 2-year training contract to keep our pay at our current level so we do not have to sell our houses. Therefore we are stuck here whether we like it or not. Granted we did not have to sign the contract but being evicted did not seem like a very good option either.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Wow, thinking quite highly of yourself, aren't you? And you are a "real" USAir pilot? Riiiiight.


Bye Bye--General Lee

No just asking some legitmate questions instead of doing a bate and switch like you did on that Gemini guy...Here's hoping you can still afford your Country Club Membership in Peachfuzz City next year!!


PHXFLYR

 

[8HourPilot]

At one point, some people were shiny new 600 hour FO's, dont forget where you came from DK

 

[BenderGonzales]

8hrpilot,

I disagree. Back in the mid-90s there were very, very, VERY few "600 hour F/Os".

MOST people in the mid-90s either instructed until they had around 1200 hrs and then flew freight until they had the 2000TT and 500ME required by most regionals... OR they participated in the FlightSafety or Comair PFT programs -- and even those PFTs required in excess of 1000 hours TT.

You 600 hour wonder-sticks are a mystery to us older folk.

 

[LearLove]

While not exactly 600hr guys, there are 2 guys in my crashpad that were hired by US Air back in the late 80's/early 90's that had less than 2000tt and no turbine. Their multi time was in 402's. The first turbine aircraft they flew was either an F-28, 737 or DC-9 at mainline.

On the other end we have a mainline guy in the pad who was furloughed from Tigers 3 times in the 70's and came to U in the 80's. He's also a general in the air guard and has to take his turn cleaning the bathrooms like the rest fo us.

 

[FlyingDawg]

The one thing I do not understand about the whole Chautauqua/Shuttle merger is this.

Every Chautauqua captain I have met since the arbitrator’s ruling has said something to the effect of “sorry man. I never thought something like that would happen to you. Its not fair.” Which makes me think it was the F/Os making the stink about the merger of the lists. However, the proposal that the Chautauqua MEC presented to the arbitrator and eventually won still screwed over the F/Os on the Chautauqua list in addition to the 87 Shuttle guys. So WHY was that what they put together? I understand the Chautauqua MEC’s job is to protect the jobs of their membership but what they did was still screw the junior guy and now create a volatile situation on the flightdeck.

This is simply not true. The CHQ FO's ended up better off than they would have with either a DOH, ratio or relative position merge.

I have included an example from the IBT747 site (I changed his name to Pilot X):

When we announced that Republic was buying SA the two pilot lists had 1209 CHQ pilots and 88 SA pilots. I figured a way to change the seniority lists in PDF format to Excel at this time. I even supplied our MEC with this list to help in the arbitration, and agreed to not post these list until after the results were posted.

Using Pilot X, who above stated he was unhappy with the results, I thought I could shed a little more light on this topic.

Suppose we went with a relative position merge.
Pilot X was #1000 on the premerged CHQ list of 1209. This put him at 82.71 percentile. Post merge this 82.71 percentile would place him at #1072 of 1297 total pilots.

If we went with a DOH format. He would of ended up at #1081.

With the intergration determined in arbitration he ended up at #1059. Better than both cases above.

It should be noted that the first (and current) list has been corrected for those that have left the company since the purchase. Pilot X is shown as #1036 on that list because of 23 people having left that were ahead of him.

Now with all this info I would love to hear arguements on how Pilot X got screwed.

I'm not picking on Justin here, I just used him as an example since he posted about his unhappiness. I know others feel the same way.

What do you propose as a fair intergration while keeping with fair and equitable?

Even if you could appeal the arbitration, I don't think the facts would play out in your favor.

 

[SlapShot]

I am aware that the arbitrator’s decision cannot be appealed. I agree with you that even if it could be appealed, I am not sure how much different the results would be.

Part of my problem with all this is the information that we were told by our MEC turned out to be wrong. I do not know if they were lied to or were just blowing smoke up our a$$es. I was under the impression that the arbitrator hears both sides and then comes up with a decision somewhere in the middle. That was what I was told a few times. If I knew it was one way or the other I would have suggested we change our offer.

I do not know what I would consider “fair and equitable”. I do not think anything about this is fair OR equitable to any SAAB pilot. Even the most junior Shuttle pilot lost a couple of months. I guess date of hire certainly would have been the easiest way.

 

[Airline Driver]

I'm sure it did to some, bigger picture pal.

I am fully aware of the bigger picture, "PAL" It still does not justify what happened to the Pilots at " OLD SHUTTLE" Can you say "BACKSTABBING", "UNDERHANDED" !!!!!!!

 

[Airline Driver]

It matters to some.

If it's such a big deal to you. Go somewhere else. It's that simple.
Quit b!chn

BLACKIE!!!!!

I see we meet again! Continuing to spread your holiday cheer I See.. You still seem to have your foot in your mouth and head up your A$$.... My suggestion is to take some peptobismal that might help the diarrhea that pours out your mouth...

Don't go down this road ROOKIE!! I have been at this company a little longer than you have. I know things that you don't. I have every right to, as you spelled it, "B!ch". Keep this in mind as well, We're comin'...Keep your mouth shut Blackie, it might get you into trouble!!!!

P.S. I am not going anywhere Rookie. I hope to look you in the eye someday!!!

 

[FlyingDawg]

Slapshot-

I was only showing how the CHQ FOs did not get a bad deal.

I said before all this started that you don't want it going to arbitration. You never know what might happen. I also think that 747 had an advantage because they were gonna be the surviving representation. I'm sure 264 didn't want to fork out alot of money if they knew they would never see any money from these guys in the future.

 

[SlapShot]

I think you are absolutely right about our representation not really caring about the outcome. I am sure that was a BIG reason we got what we did. However I expected the Teamsters to step in before it went to arbitration because they would not want one local screwing over another local. Shows you what I know.

 

[BlackPilot628]

BLACKIE!!!!!

I see we meet again! Continuing to spread your holiday cheer I See.. You still seem to have your foot in your mouth and head up your A$$.... My suggestion is to take some peptobismal that might help the diarrhea that pours out your mouth...

Don't go down this road ROOKIE!! I have been at this company a little longer than you have. I know things that you don't. I have every right to, as you spelled it, "B!ch". Keep this in mind as well, We're comin'...Keep your mouth shut Blackie, it might get you into trouble!!!!

P.S. I am not going anywhere Rookie. I hope to look you in the eye someday!!!

I will stick by the quote in which you responded too. I'm glad you've been at this company longer than I have and I hope that makes you feel better about yourself. I welcome the day to meet you face to face, I'm no coward. I'm sure you won't have a hard time finding any "blackie's" out there. Rookie? That's funny. You're talking to someone that has been laid-off twice by 2 different companies and is now flying for his 4 th company in 2 years. Spare me the bullsh!t. I for one sold my first house and moved in with my in-laws. Once again, spare me the bullsh!t. I may not have that experience of the UsAir guys, but i'm no Rookie. BTW, Did you have to sell your house? I honestly feel your anger and I know where you're coming from. Most all the FO's at CHQ have been liad-off from some company. Most ACA/IDE and some Windy City.

As for a lot of folks were against you receiving your longevity pay, I for one was a supporter of you keeping your pay.
You want to talk about spreading cheer, I will do that. Be thankful for what you have today as you could be in a lot worse situation. Being mad and angery will do nothing to help your cause, it will just make it worse. Be thankful for what you do have.

I had a chance to spend some time with a few of the Orginal Shuttle pilots in YUL this past week. Super nice and intelligent guys/girls. I look foward to working with them. We had a blast! They for sure don't have your crappy attitude. God Bless and have a great Thanksgiving!

 

[Swaayze]

Maybe I should reread the whole thread. Did BP show joy in someone elese's misfortune? It seems to me that he has the attitude necessary to survive this business.

Of course I like to think I present the same non-chalant acceptance of being "wronged" by this job, but inside I know better..........

 

[Airline Driver]

I will stick by the quote in which you responded too. I'm glad you've been at this company longer than I have and I hope that makes you feel better about yourself. I welcome the day to meet you face to face, I'm no coward. I'm sure you won't have a hard time finding any "blackie's" out there. Rookie? That's funny. You're talking to someone that has been laid-off twice by 2 different companies and is now flying for his 4 th company in 2 years. Spare me the bullsh!t. I for one sold my first house and moved in with my in-laws. Once again, spare me the bullsh!t. I may not have that experience of the UsAir guys, but i'm no Rookie. BTW, Did you have to sell your house? I honestly feel your anger and I know where you're coming from. Most all the FO's at CHQ have been liad-off from some company. Most ACA/IDE and some Windy City.

As for a lot of folks were against you receiving your longevity pay, I for one was a supporter of you keeping your pay.

You want to talk about spreading cheer, I will do that. Be thankful for what you have today as you could be in a lot worse situation. Being mad and angery will do nothing to help your cause, it will just make it worse. Be thankful for what you do have.

I had a chance to spend some time with a few of the Orginal Shuttle pilots in YUL this past week. Super nice and intelligent guys/girls. I look foward to working with them. We had a blast! They for sure don't have your crappy attitude. God Bless and have a great Thanksgiving!

Blackie,

I am happy to here your points of view. I am sorry to here you have been furloughed from 2 airlines in the past 2 years. I myself came here after being laid off from a previous company and then another closed down. Never would I wish that on any pilot!! My point is that you tend to say things inappropriately on allot of these links which aggravates allot of people. As far as feeding you a line of !@#$%^... I speak the truth and I am a man on my word. Don't tell me to leave my company and stop complaining when you don't have a clue on what We have gone through. Your just going on what you have heard from 747 and the MEC and hear say. I am going on facts and experiences... Big difference

Yes these are just words on a message board, however it is also a way to hide behind your true feelings and I question your words most of the time. 9 times out of 10 your bashing someone or a group of people.The Majority of us at "OLD SHUTTLE" are very optimistic and happy go-lucky. Myself included, Believe it or not!!! We have a kind of family bond that does not come this way very often. The people you met up in Canada are great people. If you liked them then you should like us all. I have also meet allot of CHQ and New Shuttle people as well and I have had nothing but good experiences..

To see you face to face is not to pick a fight, just to see the face behind the words. Who knows we may have already met.. We may even have a good laugh over our little battles... I just hope that In the future you choose your words more carefully... I have no intention on leaving this company anytime soon. I have read some of your past postings and you have said you look forward to working with the pilots of Old shuttle. Then you say things that question my belief in your words.

There is going to be animosity between the 2 sides for a while but things will cool of once we all settle in to the new routine. I just hope your not going to pour salt on the wounds or add fuel to the fire . You certainly seem to do that quite often on these message boards. Every company has a few "BAD APPLES". I am not one of them at Old Shuttle & I certainly hope your not at New shuttle.. As far as my "bad attitude" is concerned I am just defending my position. Your the one who seems to need a little attitude adjustment.

Good luck to you in The Republic family. Many happy landings, God Bless and good health during the Holidays!!

 

[Airline Driver]

I will stick by the quote in which you responded too. I'm glad you've been at this company longer than I have and I hope that makes you feel better about yourself. I welcome the day to meet you face to face, I'm no coward. I'm sure you won't have a hard time finding any "blackie's" out there. Rookie? That's funny. You're talking to someone that has been laid-off twice by 2 different companies and is now flying for his 4 th company in 2 years. Spare me the bullsh!t. I for one sold my first house and moved in with my in-laws. Once again, spare me the bullsh!t. I may not have that experience of the UsAir guys, but i'm no Rookie. BTW, Did you have to sell your house? I honestly feel your anger and I know where you're coming from. Most all the FO's at CHQ have been liad-off from some company. Most ACA/IDE and some Windy City.

As for a lot of folks were against you receiving your longevity pay, I for one was a supporter of you keeping your pay.

You want to talk about spreading cheer, I will do that. Be thankful for what you have today as you could be in a lot worse situation. Being mad and angery will do nothing to help your cause, it will just make it worse. Be thankful for what you do have.

I had a chance to spend some time with a few of the Orginal Shuttle pilots in YUL this past week. Super nice and intelligent guys/girls. I look foward to working with them. We had a blast! They for sure don't have your crappy attitude. God Bless and have a great Thanksgiving!

Blackie,

I am happy to here your points of view. I am sorry to here you have been furloughed from 2 airlines in the past 2 years. I myself came here after being laid off from a previous company and then another closed down. Never would I wish that on any pilot!! My point is that you tend to say things inappropriately on allot of these links which aggravates allot of people. As far as feeding you a line of !@#$%^... I speak the truth and I am a man on my word. Don't tell me to leave my company and stop complaining when you don't have a clue on what We have gone through. Your just going on what you have heard from 747 and the MEC and hear say. I am going on facts and experiences... Big difference

Yes these are just words on a message board, however it is also a way to hide behind your true feelings and I question your words most of the time. 9 times out of 10 your bashing someone or a group of people.The Majority of us at "OLD SHUTTLE" are very optimistic and happy go-lucky. Myself included, Believe it or not!!! We have a kind of family bond that does not come this way very often. The people you met up in Canada are great people. If you liked them then you should like us all. I have also meet allot of CHQ and New Shuttle people as well and I have had nothing but good experiences..

To see you face to face is not to pick a fight, just to see the face behind the words. Who knows we may have already met.. We may even have a good laugh over our little battles... I just hope that In the future you choose your words more carefully... I have no intention on leaving this company anytime soon. I have read some of your past postings and you have said you look forward to working with the pilots of Old shuttle. Then you say things that question my belief in your words.

There is going to be animosity between the 2 sides for a while but things will cool of once we all settle in to the new routine. I just hope your not going to pour salt on the wounds or add fuel to the fire . You certainly seem to do that quite often on these message boards. Every company has a few "BAD APPLES". I am not one of them at Old Shuttle & I certainly hope your not at New shuttle..

Good luck to you in The Republic family. Many happy landings and happy holidays right back at you!!!

 

[BlackPilot628]

Airline Driver,

I think you are just extra sensitive and you interpret terminology in a way on this message board that you probably shouldn't. I try not to read things on this message board and become offended by them, because I can't hear the expression of the words. I have gone back and looked at my last few posted and haven't seen once where I based anyone. Accept yesterday when PCL_128 (a PFT) called CHQ bottom feeders when he's a PFT from GFT.
Anyhow, Not my intentions to bash any companies, be cause I don't like people bashing on ours. I don't need to hide behind these words, I will speak what I feel no matter the subject may be.
BTW- This has nothing to do with what I heard from my union. I was just tried of the pissing matches on ALL message boards.

This is a message board. A lot of folks get on here to start sh!t. I know a few of them personally. Don't take it to heart.

As far as saying "stop b!tchin" That was not a directed to any one pilot group. When you start paying dues and have access to the IBT747 page I welcome you to look at the post in which I wrote. I said the same thing on that post too, " stop b!tchin". It doesn't matter weather you were original CHQ or S5. Some of us are just tried of hearing about it, most of us are. We just want to move on with things. The more we dwell on this arbitration, the more animosity will stay instilled with-in the pilot groups. We don't need that.
As management sits back and laughs at us make fools of ourselves.

I'm glad we've come to some understanding that we've been in the same boat. We both know what it's like being " let go" as I call it. I'm not a bad apple here and I haven't met any original shuttle guys/girls that are either.
Although, there are some in every bunch. See ya on-line and thanks for the Good Luck.