May you pushback without a "fuel slip"?

[Beetle007]

Just curious how many airlines (if any) allow you to pushback before recieving an electronic or radio "fuel slip".

I know some pilots who say you aren't allowed to pushback until you have recieved your fuel numbers via radio or hard copy. Why can't you just compare your fuel guages to the release fuel? Then verify that the fuel slip (radio or electornic) matches during taxi out.

Why is fuel any different than recieving your weight + balance after pushback (radio or electronic.)

 

[A350]

At JB, we usually get a fuel upload number in gallons....We compare this to our calculated upload. The calculation is outbound fuel minus inbound fuel in pounds converted to gallons.

It is NOT required. It is a gross upload fuel check and it keeps the fuel gauges honest.

A350

 

[Mike man]

At my former employer we didn't get a fuel slip...if FOB (according to the fuel gauges) = RAMP FUEL you were/are good to go. Also, on the bus why do they load the fuel in pounds then give the uplift in gallons.

How many airlines push without the PIC signing the logbook and making sure that there are no open write ups?

I used this to help (not mine--thanks DM):
AIRPLANE, LOGBOOK, TIME, PINS and GAS those are the things that will bite my a$$

 

[mynameisjim]

No fuel slip on Us Airways Express

 

[calfo]

Continental - required. Mostly to verify the old-gen equipment...

 

[gflyer]

At Republic it is required per our FOM

 

[airline#5]

you are all so amazingly gay

who cares? go

 

[glasspilot1]

At TWA it was an absolute sin to push without the "M80" (fuel slip). Then we go over the fence at AA and it's "just trust the gauges"!

 

[DCitrus9]

At FL, f they give us a slip from the fuelers at it goes straight in the trash.

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

At NW, you get the fuel slip in gallons, convert it to pounds, add it to what the airplane came in with, and that's what should be on the gauges.

It's a nice double check, and makes sure the fueler actually pumped in the airplane what they bill the company for.

It's a no-go item unless you're at one of the stations with electronic fuel slips.

Nu

 

[denny]

<<How many airlines push without the PIC signing the logbook and making sure that there are no open write ups?>>

The FAA will sign off on just about any operating procedure. At my airline, USAirways, we (captains) do not sign the logbook anymore and we are only responsible for the previous log page for open write ups. If there are 20 open write ups 2 or more log pages previous then no one cares, including the FAA meaning I won't be held responsible.

I remember the days when we used to have to calculate and file our own duty/flight times including running calculations for 30 in 7. Now, no one cares except the computer and it is almost always wrong anyway but no one gets in trouble.

As for the fuel slip we still require it though I don't care. I never look at it nor make the conversions. If the fuel gauges are close then that is all that counts. If they aren't then mx MELs the fuel guages and we do actual drip readings. Probably the only time you have an accurate indication of fuel on board. I could care less if the company is getting shortchanged on fuel. That is really one of the least of my worries!

d

 

[DrewBlows]

At NW, you get the fuel slip in gallons, convert it to pounds, add it to what the airplane came in with, and that's what should be on the gauges.

Why would you base the accuracy of the fuel gauges on a calculation that uses a reading taken from the same gauges?

Is it accurate to say some of the older equipment flying around may not have as accurate of gauges as the newer equipment? I can't say for certain that the gauges on the CRJ are super accurate, but there has always been fuel in the tanks when we've landed, which is why I suspect they don't require a fuel slip at Comair.

 

[NuGuy]

Why would you base the accuracy of the fuel gauges on a calculation that uses a reading taken from the same gauges?

Is it accurate to say some of the older equipment flying around may not have as accurate of gauges as the newer equipment? I can't say for certain that the gauges on the CRJ are super accurate, but there has always been fuel in the tanks when we've landed, which is why I suspect they don't require a fuel slip at Comair.

No, the gauges are fine. The reading in gallons we get is off of the meter on the fuel truck or fuel hydrant.

Inbound Readings + Fuel Boarded (in gallons from truck meter) = current reading

This shows that everything is working ok.

Nu

 

[Speedbird34]

Not required at Pinnacle. looks nice in the trash

 

[El Ocho]

I think the issue is that if you use the fuel gauges for any part of the calculation, "Inbound Readings," then you are using possibly flawed data to check for flawed data...

 

[Bluto]

I think the point is, if the amount indicated by the gauges increased by the same amount the truck put in, they are at least working to some degree. I agree that using the gauges to check the gauges isn't an ideal scenario.

 

[JAM-BRO]

you are all so amazingly gay

who cares? go

You r so damn right!!!!!!! Who cares what everyone else does.

Do whatever your FOM says and go!!!!

 

[AutoBus]

Just curious how many airlines (if any) allow you to pushback before recieving an electronic or radio "fuel slip".

I know some pilots who say you aren't allowed to pushback until you have recieved your fuel numbers via radio or hard copy. Why can't you just compare your fuel guages to the release fuel? Then verify that the fuel slip (radio or electornic) matches during taxi out.

Why is fuel any different than recieving your weight + balance after pushback (radio or electronic.)

Who really cares? You work for a company, they tell what the policy is. What are you looking for a FAR?

 

[Vastly Underemp]

Hey Glass,

Perhaps that is why they've has so many "bingo fuel" incidents!

B6 with a lot of Biz-Ex-ers.......

Vastly

 

[AvroJockey]

you are all so amazingly gay

who cares? go

LOL!!!! This is exactly why I keep coming back to FI!!

 

[DrewBlows]

I think the point is, if the amount indicated by the gauges increased by the same amount the truck put in, they are at least working to some degree. I agree that using the gauges to check the gauges isn't an ideal scenario.

So, perhaps the company is using the fuel gauges to check the accuracy of the fuel slip. In other words, they don't want to pay for fuel that isn't put in the airplane.

 

[tomgoodman]

Thumb on the scales?

So, perhaps the company is using the fuel gauges to check the accuracy of the fuel slip. In other words, they don't want to pay for fuel that isn't put in the airplane.

Very understandable. There have been reported cases of "slightly inflated" fuel slips at some stations. If the crew doesn't catch it, a small amount of non-existent fuel will be assumed to have been burned on each flight serviced by that vendor, adding up to a lot of money over weeks and months.

 

[igneousy2]

Because that's the way we've always done it - is the only reason I can think of for NEEDING a fuel uplift ticket (operationally anyway)

In my experience, when a fuel gauge craps out it's pretty obvious - pegged high or low. The one time I saw that only a procedure such as this may have been able to help it wouldn't have. Garbage in garbage out.

The gauge was reading 1000 pounds lower than what was actually in the tank. Doing the calculations would not have helped because it would have started out 1000 high and ended your calculation 1000 high.

The only way it was finally figured out (it had been written up numerous times for the trim being out of wack - because the airplane had 1000 pounds more weight in one wing then the other) was when the requested fuel +1000 was greater than the total fuel capacity and the overfill check wouldn't allow the tank to fill any further with the gauge reading half full.

The flaw I see in this system with the captain that use it is the thinking that 6.7lbs of Jet fuel = 1 gallon which is not true. The AVERAGE density of Jetfuel is 6.7/1 gal but it is not ALWAYS 6.7/1 gal which is why we measure everything on the airplane in fuel WEIGHT.

Some don't seem to understand that if you order 500 gallons of Jet Fuel on a hot day you are actually getting LESS fuel then if you order 500 gallons of fuel on a cold day.

This is why I never understood the Captains that would order a specific amount of fuel in gallons taking the 6.7lbs/gal rule of thumb instead of having the fueler look at the gauge.

I don't see the harm in doing the check - but I also don't think it's anything to flip-out over if it's not done prior to push (or at all).

 

[GCD]

Atlas ---- Required

When you are working with the massive amount of fuel the 747 carries, varying fuel densities with varying temperatures, and fuel guage accuracy (or lack of), the Flight Engineer is pretty busy doing fuel calculations when fueling and during the entire flight.