MAPD grads getting hired?

[secks]

PBR,

You basically insinuated that everyone who takes the MAPD route is a spoiled, rich brat. Then you go on to complain that they're making a bad decision, since you enjoyed another route. I called you out on it, and you say I'm venting?

KingAirKiddo conveyed his (similar) opinion in a much more tactful way.

Reread your first post. Your argument hinged on having fun doing 135 ops. That's not a very good argument for why pilots should do 135 before 121. That's why I took issue.

I do agree with your most recent post. Most 300 hours students aren't ready for the regionals. MAPD grads? Maybe, maybe not. They seem to be doing pretty well, though. Some 135 definitely can't hurt, but after how many months of that does the law of dimishing returns kick in?

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Tact is not my strong point, when people want to take the "easy" way to a career just by paying an expensive fee and getting an interview by virtue of passing a credit check and meeting some criteria, thats where I have issue. I want the people I have to sit next to to be Captain material on the first day of the job, they just might have to exert that level of skill, knowledge, ability on that very day, when the goose comes thru the captain's wind screen, rendering him/her unconcious. I would not want my wife flying on that day if I knew that the F/O only had 300hrs. and just came off of IOE. The people in the back are paying for two airline pilots not one and a trainee. Just because you can fly the plane are you really ready to fly the plane?
Think about it, would you want your loved ones flown by inexperienced crews?
Experience can't be bought, it's paid for with sweat and effort. this isnt about freight vs cfi, it's about quality experience. Spending your days/nights instructing people who seem to always want to kill you by accident, flying freight to airports in cruddy wx, delivering junk a/c to weird and strange places, __________ fill in anything into the box that causes you to do something(flying) different, and causes you to learn(experience) something new to add to your toolbox(skills). these things can't be bought, you got's to do them!
Tact, nope never will I guess
PBR

 

[FMR_RGNL_PLT]

PBR,

Yeah, you have that attitude,,,,,, I would have LOVED to have been your F/O right off of IOE. Just because a guy hasn't flown into a particular airport hauling checks at night and isn't familiar with the ground layout or radio procedures I'll bet your real understaning if he needs a little help.

Or, if maybe the guy is a little slow working with the autopilot 'cause he didn't have one in the a/c he was flying I'll bet you don't like to give any help. Not because the guy isn't a good stick, or because he isn't sharp, or becuase he doesn't have a good attitude, but because YOU are the arrogant SOB who can't empathize with a fellow pilot and do the decent thing and help him out.

If you had some punk with low time with an attitude, yeah, he doesn't deserve help, but if you have someone beside you who has the skills and the right attitude, but just doesn't have the time in that level of aircraft, it is your responsibility as a captain and a leader, whether you like it or not, to help that person to the best of your ability.

If that guy is a good stick, and maybe has he's an experienced aerobatic plot and and has done some MEI training, he may be BETTER THAN YOU at handling certain emergencies, think about it..........

Sorry for going off on you, but man I've heard that along the way, the bottom line is that "inexperienced FO" has already made it to that seat if he is beside you and its not helpful to you, or the passengers in the back, (ie, your wife/kids) not to help your FO be the best he can be as long as he is trying his best.

FYI, guys in the military are flying missions in F-15s at around 300hrs, so total flight time really doesn't mean that much as far as I'm concerned. I'd rather have an MEI who has done alot of initial multi instruction recently, (you wanna talk about challenging, potentially dangerous work) handling an engine out in a turbo-prop than some old line pilot whose hand/eye coordination might be slipping.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

FMR_RGNL-PLT, etal,
I am not sure why you are trying convince me or anyone else reading this board that 300 hr pilots are as good as 1000,2000,3000 hr pilots with the experience gained from such. Piloting is about learning, when you stop it's time to quit.
"If that guy is a good stick, and maybe has he's an experienced aerobatic plot and and has done some MEI training, he may be BETTER THAN YOU at handling certain emergencies, think about it.......... "
SOP procedures and proper training are what prevents your statement(above in quotes) from being required, think about it.... experienced aerobatic pilot, why would you need that training/experience unless things have gotten way out of hand. Your arguement about military pilots is taken well, the military takes the best of the best, takes the cream off the that, then trains to the maximum level possible, and still fails some. The experience that the 300 military pilot gains during probably equals thousands of hours other types of flying. "Sorry for going off on" -me?, don't be, sounds like the above examples were things that happened to you, not my behavior. I am working for SKYW and am going into my 5th year and 3rd year in the CRJ, you?
Best to all
PBR

 

[WhiteCloud]

The thing that seems to be lost in this discussion is that military and legitimate "ab initio" programs are places where good students apply and get paid to devote a couple years to learning to fly. 300 hours of airline or military specific training along with demanding course work and high levels of expectation are quite different than 300 hours of training at the local pea patch (like I did). Civilian training is what you make of it and the quality varies tremendously. We have a little more to prove because of this. A good, concientious student with 300 hours and a Commercial ME/instrument licence would do just fine in any airplane out there PROVIDED the training course matched his/her background. As we know, most airlines throw the material at you and you sink or swim. That's why a higher level of initial experience is required to get through.

 

[d.fitz]

IMHO, If you have researched the program and can afford the costs and are reasonably assured permanent employment after completion. GO FOR IT.

Experience in the form of a number of hours means nothing.

If you have 300 hours and good PIC skills - lucky you. Some people have 5-10,000 hours and still have no PIC skill. Its all about the particular person.

Do what you can to get ahead!

 

[Doggiepaddle]

Just a thought....

Your arguement about military pilots is taken well, the military takes the best of the best, takes the cream off the that, then trains to the maximum level possible, and still fails some. The experience that the 300 military pilot gains during probably equals thousands of hours other types of flying.

Sorry if this sounds like flamebait, I do fully respect those that have paid their dues, but here are some facts: MAPD has a careful selection process, ie. tests and an airline style interview. You must keep up a "B" average while attending, and two "C's" will get you the boot, and it's not hard to do. Washout rate is huge, nearly 33-50%. Program is run by military officers, military style. Program is not as pricey as most think, considering that ALL ratings are done in a 300HP A36 Bonanza @ $100/hr, BE58 Baron @189/hr, and the 1900D @350/hr, and all are extremely well maintained and equiped HSI's, RMI's, Color Radar, etc. All approaches are flown at 120-160 outside the FAF -10 to -20 inside. Total cost about 35K with an associates degree. How much did most spend on their ratings, maybe 20K in 152's, 172's, warriors, katanas, seminoles, and dutchesses, then add on two years of college. Ask any instructor that has worked there and they will tell you that it is probably some of the best and most difficult training out there. Just my 2 cents worth of thought before I will bash these pilots. Most who have flown with MAPD grads say they may lack experience, but overall are excellent pilots. No MAPD grad to my knowledge has ever failed out of ground school. Just maybe, MAPD may have something there...

 

[VFR on Top]

Your arguement about military pilots is taken well, the military takes the best of the best, takes the cream off the that, then trains to the maximum level possible, and still fails some. The experience that the 300 military pilot gains during probably equals thousands of hours other types of flying.

No, it really doesn't--although most military types would like you to believe that. As many of our more experienced brethren on the board will tell you, judgment comes only with experience. I don't care how good military training is, a 300 hour pilot still has only 300 hours of experience and their judgment is nowhere near as developed as the average CRJ capt with a few thousand hours.

I've known quite a few military pilots, and at 300 hours, things are barely beginning to 'gel' for them and they are just beginning to get a handle on things. Why? Because the equipment and the profiles they fly are a lot more demanding than shepherding a student around the pattern in a 152 as their civilian counterparts are doing. Even so, most experienced military pilots will tell you that a fresh-outta-RTU wingman poses a greater threat to himself and his flight lead than to any adversary.

As to the military only taking the "best of the best" and then only the cream off that, remember that they're only taking the best of those who apply AND who happen to have perfect eyesight, are under 30, etc. It's certainly not as if every able bodied American is screened for the privilege. Seriously, it's tougher to get into Harvard's business school than into a military pilot slot. I can't offer hard numbers, but consider the pool of eligibles from the commissioning sources, then the number of pilot applicants, and see how many are selected. Not everyone at the academies or ROTC that wants a pilot slot gets one, but most do. It's mostly about being physically qualified...and that's simply genetics.

Military flight training is of great quality, no doubt, but it's not terribly different from what people are being put through at the FlightSafety or Comair academies. What sets it apart from most civilian training is the equipment, the pace, and the standards--and the military certainly doesn't have a lock on the latter two.

Several SUPT students have kept online journals of their experience; if you haven't read one, take the time to--if nothing else, it may take some of the mystique out of the equation for you. Here's one that came up on a simple Yahoo search:

http://www.geocities.com/endeavor00/Supt1.htm

 

[VFR on Top]

Re: Just a thought....

Just maybe, MAPD may have something there...

Absolutely. And it's the same thing that most foreign airlines do. It's hardly a coincidence that MAPD closely resembles the ab initio programs utilized by many of the world's carriers. Seems to work for them....

 

[Data]

Here's what it REALLY comes down to. Everyone on here wants you to go their route, because, after all, it was the choice they made (how could it possibly have NOT been the best choice?) So, according to me, if you don't instruct, you aren't worth $hit.

Now, how does this really apply to MAPD? All you really need is your Commercial Multi and $10,000. You pay the 10Gs to go through the PACE program, or whatever the catchy new acronym is, and voila!, you're on your way to the right seat of the worst regional in the country. $18.15 an hour in the right seat of a 1900. Guess what your second year pay is? How about $20 and change. 3rd year? $22 and change. So do the math, pay $10 grand to sit in the right seat of a 1900 for 2-3 years, maybe even 4. Or, get your ratings, instruct or fly 135, 2 years later you're right seat at a real regional.

You pick, it's you that has to look in the mirror every morning at that sorry sob starring back with that cruddy looking MESA badge and dingy uniform. 3 stripes on your uniform is cool for the the first few trips in the terminal, after a few years though, man you're pining for 4 and at MESA, that won't happen for a while.

 

[Doggiepaddle]

Data....

Data,

I agree that Mesa may be a bad regional to work for, but the rest of your info is wrong. Currently there are 6 groundschools going on at Mesa. 1900-1, Dash-1, ERJ-2, CRJ-2. Mapd grads are mostly in the RJ's, only a few are in the 1900, and that was by CHOICE. They feel the upgrade will be faster. Pay is actually fairly competitive in the jets. Right now, Mesa is experiencing huge growth, which means huge upgrades. Currently they are still holding interviews, and more classes are being scheduled. Can't say that about many other regionals. No, I do not work there, but I have friends there who are good folks.

Dog

 

[KingAirKiddo]

Kingairkiddo,

I don't meen to pick on you, but i've heard the "you really should fly, 135 freight for awhile to make you a real pilot before you move on to 121........" crap for a long time. When i went through my Indoc ground school I had minimum time and had basically done only flight instructing. I heard alot of crap, but when it came right down to it I did better than most on the written tests and I made it through the sim-traiinng and checkrides with no problems.

I realize that you had to put up with alot flying 135 and you like to think that experience puts you head and shoulders above pilots who haven't, but statistics just don't bear that out. People who have flown 135 want other people to go through it because they feel everyone should have to bear the pain that they did. Not necessarily because the experience was so valuabe and important.



Fmr__Regional__Pilot,

All that I was doing is sharing my view that one gains a lot more valuable experience by following a more traditional route to the 121 cockpit. Congratulations for making it through the written tests, sim training, and checkrides with no problems. However, never did I once suggest that one would not be able to accomplish this by not instructing, flying charter, freight, etc. Let's face it--today's regional aircraft are pretty easy to fly...it does not take a brain surgeon to fire up a CRJ and take off, land, etc. However, one does benefit from the experience of having flown through many different types of weather, making decisions, and having it "all on the line" that these other types of flying provide.

At any rate, I didn't mean to open up a can of worms. You have your opinion, I have mine. Guess it's best to simply leave it at that.

 

[greyhound]

Couldn't you go through the "PACE" program, get on with Mesa, build some time then move on to another regional or corporate job?
How are programs such as the "PACE" program viewed by other regionals?
Will going through these programs make a candidate undesirable when they decide to go work for another airline in the future?
Is it viewed like PFT?

 

[Doggiepaddle]

NO!

It's not PFT, and it is not looked at in that way. MAPD is a 141 program in which to get your ratings as well as an associates degree. You get to train in great, high permormance a/c. The prices are not that expensive at all. Most people quote prices including living expenses, which is not really fair. After successful completion of the program, you have a guaranteed interview with MESA, NOT a guaranteed job. You do NOT pay for your right seat time, you GET paid to be an FO. Most MAPDers that I have flown with have been excellent pilots, sometimes even better than street hires. They have been trained in a LOFT environment from day one.

 

[greyhound]

Will they accept someone into the PACE program who has no chance at the interview. Or do they try to determine that before you make the expense of going through the training.
In other words, if accepted, do they pretty much say, "O.K." you can go through the training, and we feel you can get hired, but it will depend on you."
Or will they take your money even if they feel you won't get hired from the get-go?