Management Pay/ALPA's Neglect and Oversight

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Yeah, I hear ya.

What I'm thinking about is accountability and transparency to the whole membership. In my view, that's how we fix the "honorable politician" problem
and is at least one way toward equality in any democratic-republic organization.

It ain't perfect but it's probably better than the corrupt cabal of a shadow council we have now.

Accountability to the membership is saying... 5% particpation at LEC meetings is not being accoutable.

33% voter particaption in LEC elections is not accountable...

1/3 particaption in the last age60 poll is not accountable..

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I don't plan to implement. That's ALPA's problem.

And now its your problem too.

Look, this has never been a decertification drive. There are some really
good things about ALPA.

Yes.

However, we think ALPA is being managed really badly. If you factor in the rampant apathy you speak of, maybe the majority of members think that too.
Why isn't American, Southwest, AirTran, jetBlue, UPS, and Skywest knocking on ALPA's door? They feel they can do better on their own. Why is that?

Is ALPA managed poorly Or are your expectations too great. Or a blend of both.

APA, SWAPA, NPA can't do it on their own. They buy services from ALPA to negotiate their contracts.

jB is knocking on ALPA's door..

UPS got a weaker contract compared to the FedEx ALPA contract.

Skywest....we'll see...

If our membership were satisfied that their union is fair and just and working toward common goals, you'd have a hard time keeping these pilot groups out.

Valid point.. but not totally conclusinve. I believe we need to run ALPA so that the non alpa carriers say.. we want in! How do we get there?

One way is to empower our own ALPA members...

Our beef is fundamental. Another MEC that you did not vote for, and does not represent your interests, should not be able to cap your career and throttle your earnings potential on your property without the knowledge and consent of your MEC.

Agreed to a point.. Maybe the DAL MEC could've been more workable. And that is a problem... MEC's treat each other as suspect.. we have to change that...

 

[N2264J]

You have a vision for fixing some of the things you view as "bad". That vision leaves tire tracks over my back.

I'm sure that's what he'd like us to believe. But remember this exchange?

DAL management would be losing a valuable weapon in any such integration: The Whipsaw. How much is that worth to them? Tough to say, but would have been quickly quantified at the negotiating table. Direct costs include the contract. At the time, the number used was North of $800-million in 2000 dollars. That's a minimum! Repeat, minimum!

If you'd like to do your own math, blend the DAL pay formula (lift, range, speed) from Section 4 for the aircraft side CMR/ASA would bring, then add the cost (at the time) of the DB Pension obligation. Then multiply that by the number of pilots, and calculate the whole thing over a nominal 4-year contract term. ALPA E&FA put it at over $1-billion...but they used a "snap integration", instead of something that occured over time.

Forget for a moment that Occam, stunningly, admits the union threw its
regional members under the bus on whipsaw. But I thought a billion dollars over the life of the contract was outrageously high so we got in touch with ALPA's E&FA department and ask for a copy of the study.

They told us no such analysis was ever done.

So if the $1 billion over 4 years didn't come from ALPA's E&FA, where did
come from? Is the Northwest MEC setting up the Mesaba pilots?

A dollar is a dollar to managment and the Mesaba bubbas would be willing to pay through the nose out of their contract to get a PID but what exactly will they end up with? Preferential interview? Some retread of an American flow through via Compass? What if Compass is sold when NWA emerges? This is why it's so important for Mesaba pilots to have a seat at the table when issues that affect them are being discussed. They shouldn't have to pay the mainline MEC for something they may or may not end up with.

Transparency and accountability - it's not a radical idea.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Wow! Some dorks suing ALPA called E&FA and asked them to cough up a study...and they didn't fall all over themselves delivering it?

[Insert stunned expression here]

Add this to your "I'm learning!" file: E&FA does analysis for all ALPA carriers during negotiations. The data regarding valuation of integration was done for C2K. If you asked for an independent "study" done for ALPA...you barked up the wrong tree. (See the trend?)

It was negotiations support.

When you're done with your diversion, gimme YOUR estimates on the cost of integration.

(And get another check to your lawyers! Just having them read the last three posts here probably set you back $1,000!)

 

[N2264J]

Wow! Some dorks suing ALPA called E&FA and asked them to cough up a study...and they didn't fall all over themselves delivering it?

If my union did a study, I think any member in good standing has the right to see it.

What E&FA said was: no cost-benefit analysis of a Delta/Comair/ASA merger has ever been done.

 

[Occam's Razor]

If my union did a study, I think any member in good standing has the right to see it.

Quit playing stupid! (If it's not an act...then I apologize)

You should be familiar with the process of contract valuation. It's done overall, section-by-section, and in some cases, word-by-word. E&FA uses accountants, actuaries, lawyers, and specialized consultants to determine the value of everything in a contract, everything on the table, and everything under consideration. (I underlined that last bit so you wouldn't miss it)

Not all proposals or considerations ever make it to the table. Example: The NWA MEC considered a Money Purchase Plan in '97 to replace the DB Pension, but it was never adopted as a formal proposal at the table because it was valued by E&FA at $400m, and the MEC considered that too expensive. Try to find that "study" and you won't. It was a proprietary analysis done for the NWA MEC. Since there was a chance (and still is, I suppose) it could've been part of a later proposal, there is NO WAY we would want that information made public. There is also the issue of our "opening" value...and the actual value. (If don't understand that part, then you've never bought a car)

It would be nice if the Negotiators and E&FA could just post all of their data, but even YOU understand why that's not possible.

What E&FA said was: no cost-benefit analysis of a Delta/Comair/ASA merger has ever been done.

Cool! The system works!

Since we used some of the same folks (and their bolierplate) to do our estimates at NWA, it appears ALPA is doing a good job of keeping important data out of the hands of weasels that are suing ALPA.

Besides...isn't it just a matter of "principle"? Aren't you only concerned about doing what's right? Isn't that why you're suing for...wait a minute!...you're not suing to "correct" anything! You're suing for money!

 

[N2264J]

Cool! The system works!

Since we used some of the same folks (and their bolierplate) to do our estimates at NWA, it appears ALPA is doing a good job of keeping important data out of the hands of weasels that are suing ALPA.

E&FA told my status rep. no such study was done.

So ALPA did a cost-benefit analysis on a merger, refuses to share it with all the pilot groups affected and is now lying about it's existence. Am I getting that right?

 

[FDJ2]

If my union did a study, I think any member in good standing has the right to see it.

Not at all true and not at all required by law. Ask your lawyer, better yet, have him ask ALPA for it, that should cost you RJDC dorks a few more bucks.:laugh:

 

[Occam's Razor]

E&FA told my status rep. no such study was done.

Excellent!

1. You're status rep ain't a DAL MEC Negotiator.
2. You're status rep wasn't a DAL MEC Negotiator when the analysis was done.
3. Had the E&FA folks given your status rep any information on any proprietary analyses done for any other MEC, they'd be out of a job soon.

You recognize (I hope!) that E&FA works for all MEC's. That means they get their hands on confidential information for all ALPA airlines. Your reps have no right to any information prepared by E&FA for the DAL Negotiating team.

 

[N2264J]

Your reps have no right to any information prepared by E&FA for the DAL Negotiating team.

So that information is so sensitive, it can't be shared with fellow union members that it concerns but not so sensitive that you mind posting it on a national public web board?

If ALPA draws a conclusion about my livelihood, I ought to be able to see how they did it.

Transparency and accountability - it's not a radical idea.

 

[737 Pylt]

So that information is so sensitive, it can't be shared with fellow union members that it concerns but not so sensitive that you mind posting it on a national public web board?

If ALPA draws a conclusion about my livelihood, I ought to be able to see how they did it.

Transparency and accountability - it's not a radical idea.

N:
Give it up. The lawsuit is over. You lost! Maybe you guys could send a little more $$ to Haber to buy him a new benz! After all, he's done so much for you dorks!:laugh: :laugh:

737

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

So that information is so sensitive, it can't be shared with fellow union members that it concerns but not so sensitive that you mind posting it on a national public web board?

If ALPA draws a conclusion about my livelihood, I ought to be able to see how they did it.

Transparency and accountability - it's not a radical idea.

If my MEC paid for data with my dues money and another ALPA pilot wanted to see it to sue my MEC... I'd say no....

 

[Occam's Razor]

So that information is so sensitive, it can't be shared with fellow union members that it concerns but not so sensitive that you mind posting it on a national public web board?

"Fellow union members"? That's rich. Are you, or are you not, a party to a lawsuit against all of your fellow union members?

Your status rep, who appears to be doing your bidding, struck out at E&FA...and you're trying to cry "foul!". That's a hoot!

Have him call the DAL negotiators. Make sure he explains why he wants the information, and who he intends to give it to. Lemme know how that goes...

If ALPA draws a conclusion about my livelihood, I ought to be able to see how they did it.

"conclusion"? Nice over-acting!

The RJDC knotheads were screaming for integration with the mainline. The mainline MEC did some analysis of the costs of an integration. That represents a conclusion about your livelihood? If FI.com gave out an award for overly dramatic hyperbole...they'd name it after you and retire your number.

Here's the telling part: I gave you a clear idea of how to do your very own analysis of the costs, and even told you where to look for the numbers to use (the contracts!)....but you don't want to have to consider that. You just want to whine about not being able to see what others did.

Transparency and accountability - it's not a radical idea.

Idiocy and belligerence - it's how the RJDC operates.

Your motives are clear. You want money. You don't want Brand Scope or integration of lists. That's not what you're suing for. You're suing for cash.

Here's a radical idea: Add another section to the RJDC website that addresses the actual cost to the mainline group for integrating the DCI's. Put up the numbers YOU develop. See how that floats.

You won't, because:

1. You don't want to admit there's a cost.
2. Your pathetic case depends on asserting a sinister conspiracy for you not holding a DAL mainline seniority number right now.
3. You don't want the number, you only want money.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

RJDC: showing pissed off ALPA members how to bog down the organization in with self inflicted wounds...

Hey Slick... after the RJDC finishes with thier lawsuit... let's sue ALPA for our disapointing career expectations...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Back to the original thread topic.... here is what ALPA is doing about Management pay...

http://www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/...View.aspx?itemid=7906&ModuleId=1316&Tabid=256

 

[luckytohaveajob]

ALPA is a day late and millions short

Northwest Airlines filed a disclosure statement on February 15, outlining its financial plans to emerge from bankruptcy. The document had no reference to executive compensation, and the Northwest pilots and other labor groups have questioned whether it’s possible to fairly assess the airline’s reorganization plan without these kinds of details.
Northwest later revealed that its senior executives would receive 4.9 percent of the equity in the reorganized company.


NWA management is going to split HUNDREDS of millions of dollars concerning that 4.9% among less than 2000 management employees while ten's of thousands got screwed.


Where was ALPA when it mattered? Why didn't ALPA stop it instead of watch it all play out? Why didn't ALPA shut down NWA before this legalized crime became so profitable?

Why didn't ALPA protect the line employees?

ALPA is years late and millions short and now going to do something about it? RIGHT!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

NWA management is going to split HUNDREDS of millions of dollars concerning that 4.9% among less than 2000 management employees while ten's of thousands got screwed.

Valid point....

Where was ALPA when it mattered? Why didn't ALPA stop it instead of watch it all play out? Why didn't ALPA shut down NWA before this legalized crime became so profitable?

Awwww how cute.... you point out managements fault and you blame ALPA. Just like management wants... Egan is laughing at all of us... they got what they wanted.. rewarded themsleves quite well for it and deflected criticism by getting guys like you to blame the ones that aren't accountable... How fooled do you need to be...?

Why didn't ALPA protect the line employees?

Still playing the blame game? recall NWA ALPA negotiated a concessionary TA... the ALPA reps said don't vote for it... and what happened? The avg line pilot..the employees you claim ALPA was supposed to protect...voted with free will under unrestricted democracy...

The answer is in the mirror and in the crewrooms...

ALPA is years late and millions short and now going to do something about it? RIGHT!

Once again... your percieved problems are with your fellow pilots not the organization...

Until you adjust your thinking..... we will always be playing catch up...

 

[Occam's Razor]

RE: "Where was ALPA when it mattered? Why didn't ALPA stop it instead of watch it all play out? Why didn't ALPA shut down NWA before this legalized crime became so profitable?"

A strike? You mean like the USAirways, United, Mesaba, and Comair pilots did?

Do you have a television? Access to a daily newspaper?

It appears some individuals...we'll call them "Federal Judges"...advised the aforementioned groups (they used a legal thingy called "ruling") that a job action was not going to happen.

Those do-good employees listened to them!

Stupid ALPA!

(sigh)

Until bankruptcy laws are changed to protect working stiffs as well as they protect credit card companies, this sort of sanctioned looting is going to continue. What did your congressman tell you when you called to complain about the unfair bankruptcy laws?

You have every right to be outraged. Choosing the right target for your wrath might be something to try.

Good luck to all of us!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Until bankruptcy laws are changed to protect working stiffs as well as they protect credit card companies, this sort of sanctioned looting is going to continue. What did your congressman tell you when you called to complain about the unfair bankruptcy laws?

You have every right to be outraged. Choosing the right target for your wrath might be something to try.

Good luck to all of us!

I know what you are trying to do Occam...

But it won't work....

You want me to say how to we change the BK law and lobby politicans...

I won't....



You can't make me.......











































































ALPA-PAC..............
























there...




















are you.........................





































happy....

 

[Occam's Razor]

Ha!

What tickles me the most are the whiners who squawk about ALPA not doing anything who refuse to heed the constant messages ALPA gives us to fund the PAC.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Ha!

What tickles me the most are the whiners who squawk about ALPA not doing anything who refuse to ..........................................

read thier email?

 

[luckytohaveajob]

ALPA is either blameless or blame shifting. All Rez and Occam are good at is blame shifting.

ALPA is the responsible party regarding membership defense of managements abuse. Am I surprised by managements actions? NO! Am I disappointed in management? Yes.

But what I am really disappointed in is ALPA sitting in its ivory tower telling everyone like Marie Antonite, "Let them eat cake."

Rez, did you publish management pay during your eight years in the ALPA magazine? No you did not. Did ALPA leadership attack TOTAL compensation abuses while members were furloughed, fired, and told to accept the pay cuts. I even remember reading reports of CAL paying bonuses for losing less than the competition. What kind of ALPA leadership supported bonus programs like that? A pathetic ALPA leadership.

Occam questions whether or not I read the news of the last five years. I read everything and I am very familiar with what went down. I remember many MEC supporting the pay cuts and telling the memberships to take the deals. If the MEC's at UAL, DAL, NWA, and US Air had been working for the members most of those TA's would not have even come up for a vote as the MEC would have already voted NO.

ALPA is just like Congress hoping everyone can't remember yesterday so ALPA can tell you all they did when in reality they stood by and waited while passing off crap TA after crap TA. How do you think the pattern down bargaining situation happened?

ALPA failed to report management pay abuse and will not take a forceful issue tomorrow either.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

ALPA is either blameless or blame shifting. All Rez and Occam are good at is blame shifting.

What does that mean?

Try this one for size: Air Line Pilots Do Not Run Airlines. If you want to get involoved in air operations management or even corporate management then apply as needed.

ALPA is the responsible party regarding membership defense of managements abuse. Am I surprised by managements actions? NO! Am I disappointed in management? Yes.

One could argue that after a labor group has agreed to a CBA, then management can do whatever they want. Unions do not control airlines like you want them too in this case.... try to do so is futile...

But what I am really disappointed in is ALPA sitting in its ivory tower telling everyone like Marie Antonite, "Let them eat cake."

Are you going to reposnd to the link I posted about ALPA using its AFL-CIO sway to address management salaries?

Are you going to reply to the fact that the membership voted the TA's?

Rez, did you publish management pay during your eight years in the ALPA magazine? No you did not. Did ALPA leadership attack TOTAL compensation abuses while members were furloughed, fired, and told to accept the pay cuts. I even remember reading reports of CAL paying bonuses for losing less than the competition. What kind of ALPA leadership supported bonus programs like that? A pathetic ALPA leadership.

Cute. Again ..
Are you going to reposnd to the link I posted about ALPA usings its AFL-CIO sway to address management salaries?

Look when the NC sits down at the table and says.. "We want to limit Exec. Compensation.. the non Executives look at each other and say. "I don't have authority to do that..." So then at the next round of negotiations an Executive comes to the table and ALPA says.. "We have to limit your compensation to reach a deal." and the Exec replies.. "if that is what you want to spend your negotiations capital on.. let's do it!"

Yes, Exec Compensation is a big deal... but your MEC MC has a bigger responsibility to its members to get fair healthcare, pay, work rules and whatever retirement it can. Controlling Exec pay is a feel good or emotional item. It doesn't pay the bills.

Occam questions whether or not I read the news of the last five years. I read everything and I am very familiar with what went down. I remember many MEC supporting the pay cuts and telling the memberships to take the deals. If the MEC's at UAL, DAL, NWA, and US Air had been working for the members most of those TA's would not have even come up for a vote as the MEC would have already voted NO.

Does it matter? If the members didn't want the deal they could've said NO. What part of free will and democracy don't you get?

ALPA is just like Congress hoping everyone can't remember yesterday so ALPA can tell you all they did when in reality they stood by and waited while passing off crap TA after crap TA. How do you think the pattern down bargaining situation happened?

The same way pattern up bargaining went... So lets talk about UAL2000 and DAL2001? No let's not talk about those crap TA's

ALPA failed to report management pay abuse and will not take a forceful issue tomorrow either.

Another problem is websites unionfacts.com that spin union salaries. Instead of getting pissed off about management salaries you got union pilots pissed off about misinformation-ed union salaries. Try to unbuild that false tower of ingnorance and anger...

Look man... your MEC does its due diligence in determining what the memebrship wants in a TA.... then they do thier best to get it and then they pass it out to vote....

While you want ALPA to address Ecex compensation, I'd rather ALPA help fix this runway braking action report problem that we are having... Sepcifically SWA 12/05 and PCL 04/07.

 

[Occam's Razor]

luckytohaveajob, you'd be smartifyouhadaclue

If you had pointed out any one of ALPA's several flaws, I'd have given you mad props and amen's. Instead you've accused the organization of not reporting management pay abuse. That is stunningly irrational.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

luckytohaveajob, you'd be smartifyouhadaclue

If you had pointed out any one of ALPA's several flaws, I'd have given you mad props and amen's. Instead you've accused the organization of not reporting management pay abuse. That is stunningly irrational.

Stunningly irrational after a news report showing AMR gave management $176M of the total 2006 $231M profit.

You Occam Razor are stunningly irrational. When a company gives away 3/4 of its yearly profit and has workers working under a concessionary deal and you union folks don't see a problem I am stunned!

 

[luckytohaveajob]

What does that mean?

Rez you do not understand what blameshifting means? I understand your a politician so it a natural behavior and must be difficult to recognize in ones self but look in the mirror as your so fond in saying.

Are you going to reposnd to the link I posted about ALPA using its AFL-CIO sway to address management salaries?

Are you going to reply to the fact that the membership voted the TA's?

I have not read the thread as I am busy flying. As far as the membership voting when the MEC votes YES and tell the membership to vote yes while the MEC puts pressure on the desisting voices to be quite I am not surprised a bunch of uninformed pilots vote yes. Again the MEC who is in the know and knows its a bad deal should protect the membership from even having to look at a crap deal.

Look when the NC sits down at the table and says.. "We want to limit Exec. Compensation.. the non Executives look at each other and say. "I don't have authority to do that..." So then at the next round of negotiations an Executive comes to the table and ALPA says.. "We have to limit your compensation to reach a deal." and the Exec replies.. "if that is what you want to spend your negotiations capital on.. let's do it!"

Yes, Exec Compensation is a big deal... but your MEC MC has a bigger responsibility to its members to get fair healthcare, pay, work rules and whatever retirement it can. Controlling Exec pay is a feel good or emotional item. It doesn't pay the bills.

ALPA does not control an airline nor did I ever imply ALPA did, does, or will.

But ALPA does have control over what its membership reads and priorities its membership has in dealings concerning a TA. And when a company is giving away 3/4 of its yearly profits in management bonuses, ALPA has a responsibility and duty to end the abuse to its membership.

When oil is above $60 per barrel it threatens any airlines viability and the membership is informed about it and asked to conserve APU usage, two eng. taxi, etc. When management pay is 3/4 of a yearly profit the membership should be just as informed of it as $60 per barrel oil and use ever bit of influence and power it has to stop the issue.

As far as the non-executives in charge of negotiating the TA not having any control all ALPA has to do is say we will come back to the table when you tell your superiors to fix the company management payroll and in the mean time expect the pilots to fly "SAFE" means slow and by every rule in the book.

Does it matter? If the members didn't want the deal they could've said NO. What part of free will and democracy don't you get?

Again when the membership is denied the basic information in the mountain of propaganda crap ALPA feeds how do you expect them to make an informed decision? I know ALPA leadership doesn't expect the membership to make an informed decision. ALPA expects us to do what ALPA feeds us to do.

Look man... your MEC does its due diligence in determining what the memebrship wants in a TA.... then they do thier best to get it and then they pass it out to vote....

While you want ALPA to address Ecex compensation, I'd rather ALPA help fix this runway braking action report problem that we are having... Sepcifically SWA 12/05 and PCL 04/07.

So what you are saying is after ALPA grinds down the memberships expectations after dragging negotiations out four years for a four year deal. And after the MEC finally produces a crap TA and tell the membership it is the best they can do. The membership now being 10 steps removed from the process should make an informed decision. The membership is kept in the dark by its own union's confidentiality agreements should make an informed decision. And after four years of dealing for a four year deal the membership is informed enough to know what is wrong. And the membership can make an informed decision.

And you call that honest dealings? It might be democracy but it sure doesn't have an truth or honesty in it.

But thats what I expect from a hardened politician lost in the power of democracy.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Stunningly irrational after a news report showing AMR gave management $176M of the total 2006 $231M profit.

You Occam Razor are stunningly irrational. When a company gives away 3/4 of its yearly profit and has workers working under a concessionary deal and you union folks don't see a problem I am stunned!

luckytohaveajob-

You are not debating, rather rubbing your itchy mangina.....

 

[luckytohaveajob]

luckytohaveajob-

You are not debating, rather rubbing your itchy mangina.....

I still am not familiar with the itch your describing but one thing I do know is those reading along know truth from political democratic lies.

I am selling the truth and I know what debated replies are half truths. And a half truth is a full lie. I am not calling anyone a liar just lost in the process of union power without truth being a controlling factor.

The problem is once the membership gets screwed enough that pesky problem of truth will force a power change. It may not be today but sometime tomorrow truth will show its force otherwise we are all lost.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

I am also not debating some theoretical philosophical slippery but an itch the membership is surely feeling.

The membership has been hurt in real terms, years, money, retirement, etc. The membership is wounded and will strike those that have wounded it which includes ALPA as well as an abusive management.

ALPA can either start helping the membership heal or take the kick from a hurt membership.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez you do not understand what blameshifting means? I understand your a politician so it a natural behavior and must be difficult to recognize in ones self but look in the mirror as your so fond in saying.

Working for a few legacy carriers, it is hard not know the blame game...

My point is..how is ALPA repsonsible for exec compensation.

I have not read the thread as I am busy flying. As far as the membership voting when the MEC votes YES and tell the membership to vote yes while the MEC puts pressure on the desisting voices to be quite I am not surprised a bunch of uninformed pilots vote yes. Again the MEC who is in the know and knows its a bad deal should protect the membership from even having to look at a crap deal.

Of course you are too busy flying... that is why no one manages thier careers. See the irony? They expect someone else to manage thier careers for them...

The rest of your quote has no point... except that it reeks of your accusation above.. shifting blame off of the membership...

ALPA does not control an airline nor did I ever imply ALPA did, does, or will.

However, you want ALPA to control exec compensation.. purley a management function.

But ALPA does have control over what its membership reads and priorities its membership has in dealings concerning a TA. And when a company is giving away 3/4 of its yearly profits in management bonuses, ALPA has a responsibility and duty to end the abuse to its membership.

What ALPA doesn't control is its membership participation and activism. You can't bring a horse to drink..

But since this is your issue... let me ask THE question. HOW does ALPA have a responsibility and duty to end the abuse to its membership? Where has ALPA accepted that responsibility? can you reference a by law? The Admin manual?

What specifically do you want ALPA to do.. and if it is such a good idea why hasn't ALPA done it?

When oil is above $60 per barrel it threatens any airlines viability and the membership is informed about it and asked to conserve APU usage, two eng. taxi, etc. When management pay is 3/4 of a yearly profit the membership should be just as informed of it as $60 per barrel oil and use ever bit of influence and power it has to stop the issue.

Clarify... you want the pilots to conserve gas even though management is taking obscene amoounts of profits in compensation?

As far as the non-executives in charge of negotiating the TA not having any control all ALPA has to do is say we will come back to the table when you tell your superiors to fix the company management payroll and in the mean time expect the pilots to fly "SAFE" means slow and by every rule in the book.

Looks like negotiaions are over. Cost savings will be had. Furlough. Now as the MEC you can explain the higher furlough rate. "sorry you can't work and pay your bills b/c "capt. lucktohaveajob" (ironic huh ) insisted that we curb exec compensation before you get to pay your house note...

Again when the membership is denied the basic information in the mountain of propaganda crap ALPA feeds how do you expect them to make an informed decision? I know ALPA leadership doesn't expect the membership to make an informed decision. ALPA expects us to do what ALPA feeds us to do.

This is hyberbole.... So you are saying that the 5% particaption rate at LEC meetings by its members is adequate for informed membership.

There can be no leadership without follwership. Follwership is a resonsibility of the membership. You can argue that the leadership suxs and that is why there is no followership, however, the membership votes in the leadership and thus directly controls it. Sort of... with only 1/3 voter paticaption in LEC elections the leadership is empowered by a minority....

The membership has a real particaption problem..

So what you are saying is after ALPA grinds down the memberships expectations after dragging negotiations out four years for a four year deal.

Is it possbile that membership expectations were inflated by the members themsleves? Who is repsonsibile for thier own viewpoint?

And after the MEC finally produces a crap TA and tell the membership it is the best they can do.

It is my understanding that in the NWA concessionary TA, some members of the MEC voted no and advised the membership to vote NO. So what's your point again?

The membership no being 10 steps removed from the process should make an informed decision. The membership kept in the dark by its own union's confidentiality agreements should make an informed decision. And after four years of dealing for a four year deal the membership is informed enough to know what is wrong. And the membership can make an informed decision.

Man, the membership is about as disconnected and apathetic as it gets. As I said before, when I was a status rep I told my members I was going to the BOD and for them to advise me on how to represent them. I got zero repsonse.

Whenever I showed up to any given MEC meeting I had carte blanc to do whatever I wanted becuase the membership never communicated with me. NEVER!

So before you starting blaming ALPA leadership volunteers you best get into the crewrooms and motivate your apathetic fellow pilot!

And you call that honest dealings? It might be democracy but it sure doesn't have an truth or honesty in it.

Then show up at An LEC meeting and bring some voices! The answers all lie with your fellow pilots.

But that what I expect from a hardened politician lost in the power of democracy.

And you are exactly what will be a major contributor to the decline of this profession: apathetic ignorant whiner pilots who demand action from thier leadership but aren't willing to do anything themselves...

Get over yourself and start being part of the solution cause you are only dragging us down.... with guys like you pulling in a hundred different directions it is obvious why we can't move forward...