Make The Call People

[capt. megadeth]

I for one know a captain who was forced to retire at 60, guess what? No medical coverage, and his regional career and no pension (we should all be in the no pension club) made him search for a career for 5 years. So now he finds himself driving a truck in northern minnesota to pay the bills. I do not want to have to be forced to do that. So I am all for having our retirement age be 60. More pilots should look beyond the greed of a higher (QUICKER) seniortiy climb with a stalled changed age 60 rule. Yes, thats right, its your short term greed! Can other professionals work to 65? does the government give us benies at 60? No, this age 60 rule was to lower pilot costs and pilots agreed because of great pensions.........we no longer have this.

I was not happy that ALPA fought the change. Especially with euro pilots who were 65 flying in our airspace.

OMG! How about fighting for Medicare to kick in when you retire at 60, instead of trying to work longer? This is the same b.s. that started all this age 65 crap. Management takes all pensions so instead of fighting and suing to get them back from all the greedy little bastards, we try to work longer. MAKES NO SENSE WHATSOEVER!

And, no Sparky, it's not a greed thing, it's a "I don't want to work my entire life and drop dead at my retirement party" thing. Wake up.

Euro pilots are given a schedule every month instead of bidding like we do. Should we do that too? If they jump off a bridge, should we?

 

[SkiFishFly]

If we don't raise the age for US pilots to 65 then we must forbid foreign pilots from operating in the US over age 60.
I'm not willing to have my government tell me I can no longer do a job based soley on my age while it allows non US citizens to do the same job 5 years beyond that age.

 

[humuakalaka]

I just made the call. Will do it several more times.

 

[humuakalaka]

If we don't raise the age for US pilots to 65 then we must forbid foreign pilots from operating in the US over age 60.
I'm not willing to have my government tell me I can no longer do a job based soley on my age while it allows non US citizens to do the same job 5 years beyond that age.

There are some legitimate arguments for raising the limit to 65, however this is one of the most bogus arguments that the pro-65 crowd makes. If this issue were simple age discrimination, then it would be an entirely different debate. However, it's not about simple age discrimination. Age discrimination is only a small part of the larger issue involved with age-65.

Most of the folks I've talked to in the pro-65 crowd were also very much for the war in Iraq...despite the fact that the vast majority of nations were very much in opposition to an invasion. You know the guys who I'm talking about; the FOX-news-watching, freedom-fry-eating, the-WMDs-were-really-there-swearin', Al-Gore-bashing true-blue, full-on members of the me generation. In the run-up to the war, these guys didn't give a dang what France or Sweden or China or the Vatican thought. They ballyhooed about how America can't be brought under the influence of foreign nations. America has got to do what is right for America. Well guys, it's time to apply the same logic to your age-65 stance. It shouldn't matter what France or Sweden or China or the Vatican does with their rules, right? America is not held captive by the whims of foreign nations, right? America does what is right for America regardless of what other nations do. In America, the retirement age for airline pilots is 60. That's been the right age for American airline pilots to retire for a long time now. Simply because some foreign countries start doing things differently doesn't mean that we have to. BTW, where were all of you guys 20 and 30 years ago? Why weren't you raising a stink back then about age 60? Seems to me the age-65 crowd is full of hypocrisy.

 

[SkiFishFly]

There are some legitimate arguments for raising the limit to 65, however this is one of the most bogus arguments that the pro-65 crowd makes. If this issue were simple age discrimination, then it would be an entirely different debate. However, it's not about simple age discrimination. Age discrimination is only a small part of the larger issue involved with age-65.

Most of the folks I've talked to in the pro-65 crowd were also very much for the war in Iraq...despite the fact that the vast majority of nations were very much in opposition to an invasion. You know the guys who I'm talking about; the FOX-news-watching, freedom-fry-eating, the-WMDs-were-really-there-swearin', Al-Gore-bashing true-blue, full-on members of the me generation. In the run-up to the war, these guys didn't give a dang what France or Sweden or China or the Vatican thought. They ballyhooed about how America can't be brought under the influence of foreign nations. America has got to do what is right for America. Well guys, it's time to apply the same logic to your age-65 stance. It shouldn't matter what France or Sweden or China or the Vatican does with their rules, right? America is not held captive by the whims of foreign nations, right? America does what is right for America regardless of what other nations do. In America, the retirement age for airline pilots is 60. That's been the right age for American airline pilots to retire for a long time now. Simply because some foreign countries start doing things differently doesn't mean that we have to. BTW, where were all of you guys 20 and 30 years ago? Why weren't you raising a stink back then about age 60? Seems to me the age-65 crowd is full of hypocrisy.

So... You are OK with your government allowing foreign pilots to fly in and out of USA past the age at which your government tells you that you have to retire?
If France (Nigeria, Mexico- whoever) says it is OK for their pilots to go to age 70 - you think our government should allow them to continue to fly in and out of the US (esssentially allowing them to work on US soil)?


I won't even go into all the ignorant stereotypes included in your post...

 

[PCL_128]

So... You are OK with your government allowing foreign pilots to fly in and out of USA past the age at which your government tells you that you have to retire?

No, they should be prohibited from flying here.

 

[humuakalaka]

So... You are OK with your government allowing foreign pilots to fly in and out of USA past the age at which your government tells you that you have to retire?
If France (Nigeria, Mexico- whoever) says it is OK for their pilots to go to age 70 - you think our government should allow them to continue to fly in and out of the US (esssentially allowing them to work on US soil)?


I won't even go into all the ignorant stereotypes included in your post...

Let's take your argument to the extreme. If France or Nigeria or Mexico decided to let pilots fly without any kind of medical screening whatsoever, would you say that the US should also allow it here? In other words, if France or Nigeria or Mexico allowed epileptics, the mentally ill, the handicapped, the legally blind, etc to fly should the US reciprocate by also eliminating medical qualifications for flying? Should US law and policy always mirror that of France or Nigeria or Mexico? Heck, Canada and Belgium have legalized gay marriage. Does that mean the US needs to legalize it here as well in the interest of fairness to homosexuals? Since when have you been okay with other nations dictating law and policy to us?

 

[pilotss]

Safety? Really you are using safety as the reason?

Sorry bro, I am no where near 60 and that doesn't hold water to me. I know plenty of 60+ that are fine mentally and physically. I think we need some more additional testing like a Cog test above 60. People are living longer and mentally age 60 isn't what age 60 used to be. If you want to retire at 60 I understand. If you don't want people hanging around longer than 60 so you can move up I understand. But really. Safety?
If you go nuts before 60 they remove you, and if you go nuts after 60 they remove you. So is it the age or the testing system?

 

[The Prussian]

ATC retires at 56.

....and they also have a pension which allows them to do that.

 

[C180drvr]

Make the call...

 

[SkiFishFly]

Let's take your argument to the extreme. If France or Nigeria or Mexico decided to let pilots fly without any kind of medical screening whatsoever, would you say that the US should also allow it here? In other words, if France or Nigeria or Mexico allowed epileptics, the mentally ill, the handicapped, the legally blind, etc to fly should the US reciprocate by also eliminating medical qualifications for flying? Should US law and policy always mirror that of France or Nigeria or Mexico? Heck, Canada and Belgium have legalized gay marriage. Does that mean the US needs to legalize it here as well in the interest of fairness to homosexuals? Since when have you been okay with other nations dictating law and policy to us?

Once again you miss the point.
If those countries want to allow any of the above within their country - that is up to them and their citizens. Our Govenrment should not allow them to do it in our country.

Right now OUR Government is going to allow non citizens to operate in OUR country up to age 65. At the same time our govenrment is going to prohibit us citizens from doing the same past age 60. That is the problem.

 

[ferlo]

I for one know a captain who was forced to retire at 60, guess what? No medical coverage, and his regional career and no pension (we should all be in the no pension club) made him search for a career for 5 years. So now he finds himself driving a truck in northern minnesota to pay the bills. I do not want to have to be forced to do that. So I am all for having our retirement age be 60. More pilots should look beyond the greed of a higher (QUICKER) seniortiy climb with a stalled changed age 60 rule. Yes, thats right, its your short term greed! Can other professionals work to 65? does the government give us benies at 60? No, this age 60 rule was to lower pilot costs and pilots agreed because of great pensions.........we no longer have this.

I was not happy that ALPA fought the change. Especially with euro pilots who were 65 flying in our airspace.

Your "no pension" captain buddy can Kiss my ass.

He had 6 decades to figure out how to care for himself and his family and he was too stupid to understand the obvious fact that an AIRLINE wasn't going to do it FOR him. I sincerely doubt an additional five years would have kept him out of a truck cab.

An Airline owes you money for work you've performed in the prior two weeks. They won't raise your children, they won't pay your bills in retirement, they won't pay your medical, and they won't bend over backwards or go out of pocket to accommodate an inflated self image because a pilot thinks he's "special".

Right or wrong, contracts are worthless, pull your head out of your ass, and solve your own problems...guess what, your CEO doesn't give a sh*t if you live or die. That's your problem. Deal with it.

 

[crxpilot]

I think we should all start lobbying for age 55. Are you going to deal with it?

Too many ex-wives eh? :laugh:

I know, I know, it's not about that, it's about "discrimination" right???? LOL!

I am not "old", I dont have "ex-wives", however, I would like the oppotunity to fill in the gap in my later years to make some more $$$ if I chose to go that route. If people cant see the writing on the wall, its a shame. We have moved into an international economy/governement. Age 65 is just another way that we will blend in with the rest of them whether we want to or not. As long as we belong to the United Nations you can bank on that.

 

[PurpleInMEM]

I am not "old", I dont have "ex-wives", however, I would like the oppotunity to fill in the gap in my later years to make some more $$$ if I chose to go that route. If people cant see the writing on the wall, its a shame. We have moved into an international economy/governement. Age 65 is just another way that we will blend in with the rest of them whether we want to or not. As long as we belong to the United Nations you can bank on that.

So all those other local area rules and exceptions to the ICAO regulations will be unified too? Well when that happens, we can go with the age 65 thing. My guess is that there will forever be a huge book of exceptions, by country, to the ICAO regulations.

A sovereign nation has the ability to TELL its citizens what the rules are. They do it all the time. This isn't about fairness, it's about business and the fact that companies at the bottom can't hire enough guys at slave wages so they want to keep guys longer. I fully expect that my company will attack my pension multiplier and my B fund contribution after this passes. It will do nothing to improve my quality of life and in essence will force me to work until 65 or whatever ridiculous age they come up with in the future.

I've said it a thousand times already. I do not understand how a pilot would VOLUNTARILY support any change that would prolong working. One of the reasons I got into this was because I knew I could get OUT EARLIER than the rest of the working schlubs.

Why do you want to work longer? I guess I'll never get it.

 

[Deerkiller]

I for one know a captain who was forced to retire at 60, guess what? No medical coverage, and his regional career and no pension (we should all be in the no pension club) made him search for a career for 5 years. So now he finds himself driving a truck in northern minnesota to pay the bills. I do not want to have to be forced to do that. So I am all for having our retirement age be 60. More pilots should look beyond the greed of a higher (QUICKER) seniortiy climb with a stalled changed age 60 rule. Yes, thats right, its your short term greed! Can other professionals work to 65? does the government give us benies at 60? No, this age 60 rule was to lower pilot costs and pilots agreed because of great pensions.........we no longer have this.

I was not happy that ALPA fought the change. Especially with euro pilots who were 65 flying in our airspace.

Quicker?!?!?

I would submit that I'm moving up the seniority list like I'm supposed to. If I'm moving quicker, it's b/c someone left early.

 

[skypine69]

If the age 65 rule came about with a requirement that all the airlines restored the pensions that would allow pilots to retire at age 60, i wonder how many would stay that extra five years?

 

[CF34-3B1]

If the age 65 rule came about with a requirement that all the airlines restored the pensions that would allow pilots to retire at age 60, i wonder how many would stay that extra five years?

About the same number that would stay if they could only fly as FOs past age 60

 

[Nindiri]

Why should I care what age somebody else retires at? I'm quite content to worry about my own career without telling somebody else how to run their lives.

 

[humuakalaka]

Why should I care what age somebody else retires at? I'm quite content to worry about my own career without telling somebody else how to run their lives.

Wow. You're so very progressive in your thinking. Live and let live. You're open to anything and everything. I admire your open-minded liberal-ness. You don't want to infringe on anyone else's rights. Very cool. You probably don't have a problem with homosexual marriage, neo-nazis burning crosses on their own property, drug users, etc, etc, etc. Who are you to tell somebody else how to run their lives, right? Wife-beater? Who are you to tell him how to run his life? Thief? Who are you tell him how to run his life?

Sorry to point this out to you, but you tread all up and down other people's rights every day simply by virtue of the fact that you live in a society. Other people walk all over your rights too for the same reason. It's all part of the social contract we have bought into. It's a necessary part of life. Speeding is dangerous, so we have speed limits even though they essentially dictate to you how to run that part of your life. You don't want other people to murder or rape you so you support laws that outlaw that kind of stuff even though that means by doing so you are attempting to run that part of murderer's and rapist's lives. How dare you?

So, as progressive as you are, you still do try to run other people's lives. Why should you care about age 65? Age 65 affects everyone in this career field. Some people will reap a windfall. Others will be dealt a fairly large financial blow. Age 65 will impact upgrade times which impacts lifetime earnings, ability to retire earlier, and quality of life for a large number of pilots. Age 65 is not a win-win situation. If age 65 was about simple age discrimination, I'd be completely onboard with you but it's not simple age discrimination and I'm not onboard with you.

 

[humuakalaka]

Double post