Majors Pay Rates

[LAZYB]

While it still doesn't have Fed Ex, this site is a good source, and it has the complete contracts so you can get into the manutia aspects that can be VERY important (retirement A, B, 401K, medical, trip rigs, duty rigs, insurance, mins, max's, ect.)


http://www.apapdp.org/pay.comparison.php

...but it doesn't show AWA because...

 

[RocketRob]

Also, remember JetBlues payrates only go as far as 5 or so years longevity. So comparing to 12 year is a bit off. (at least to the best of my knowledge)

 

[Ben Franklin]

Not being an airline type I was not wowed by the hourly rate. What got my attention was the employee cost/revenue %s. In our little operation our total employee cost/flight hour is ~18% of the total costs to operate our aircraft. The hourly rate for employee costs work out to be ~$900/flight hour.

I know this is not apples to apples. What is apples to apples are the employee costs as a percentage of revenue between the winners and the losers.

I don't have a dog in this race. Just an observation from an Economics 101 class.

After you FAIL Economics 101, sign up for Airline Economics 101 next semester and you will learn that most airlines spend more money catering their planes for an international flight than they spend on flight crews for that flight.

You will learn about stage length, hedging of fuel prices, how expansion helps the bottom line, how outsourcing smaller routes saves money in the short term. Can you say "productivity"? You will also learn the tricks that CFO's use to show a healthy airline like: placing sales on the company books as revenue, even if no monies have been recieved, claiming assets on your balance sheet - even though you only lease those assets. The list goes on.

Flight crew costs are a drop in the bucket compared to the total picture.

Linear math has no place in the business/corporate world. It is an entirely different set of rules.

Q. If an airline makes a 10 million dollar profit this year and at the same time, they sign new labor agreements with F/A's, Mech's and pilots totalling an increase of 10 million dollars annually, how much profit will they make next year?

A. if you say "0", then you know nothing about economics, airlines or how a corporation functions.

Come to class.

Learn to swim.


Sincerely,

B. Franklin

 

[Astra Guy]

Hey Ben,

I am reading your biography right now. You "were" a very bright fellow, even if you initially were a "royalist."

"After you FAIL Economics 101, sign up for Airline Economics 101 next semester and you will learn that most airlines spend more money catering their planes for an international flight than they spend on flight crews for that flight."

I have not been on any commercial international flights lately and thankfully. However, I have been on a "few" domestic flights, much to my shagrin. I doubt that your catering costs, everything combined, hit the 40% of revenue amount as employees costs do. Otherwise both being added up it would hit 80% of your revenue...not much left for gas, planes, gate fees, etc. Now about your catering/passenger there have been some numbers publicised that reflect <$1/pax. AirTran is the only carrier I know that gives you a whole can of coke! By comparison our catering costs avg $20/head...but then again we run a first class operation.

Having started this flight department from scratch over 13 years ago and being responsible for budgeting I hardly think I need to attend your eco class. I know all of the categories and how they all interface. Me be knowin the bottom line....yours appears a little fuzzy. But maybe it is "new math" in disguise. Where I come from revenue-costs=profit. You have a different equation?

I am not really into bashing any other type of operation. I am extremely happy to be where I am. We all have our "niches." I am proud to serve the folks I serve by flying safely, keeping the standards high, being appreciated and highly compensated by those I work for. If you could only be so lucky, I suppose.

I do feel sorry for those of you who think you are worth more than your company does. The good old days are gone or soon will be for the pilots of 121 ops. For the drivers out there it is a job. For the pilots it will always be a love affair. I always want to fly with pilots. Drivers are dangerous.

My hope for you is happiness, tailwinds enroute and calm winds on all landings.

PS Glad you finally saw the light, Ben. If not we would all be working for the Brits.

 

[justApilot]

I know a guy that would fly AA's MD80's for 80 bucks an hour!!!!!!!

 

[Ben Franklin]

Where I come from revenue-costs=profit. You have a different equation?

I guess you don't pay any taxes, then.

Pilots should be so lucky.


Sincerely,

B. Frankliln

 

[General Lee]

Astraguy,

So, the gig is up at Delta? Expect a 15% cut from that $245. And that would equal about a $36/hr cut, which would still be about $209 an hour----not bad.

I still think there will be a 15% straight cut, plus the 4.5% raise cut we are due in May. That would equal 19.5%---but still give great wages.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[BrownTailGuy]

Where did the 15% number come from? The last I saw was 9%. If the 15% is correct what does that do to a 12 year captain on the 767 pay rate?

Thanks

 

[FDJ2]

Where did the 15% number come from? The last I saw was 9%. If the 15% is correct what does that do to a 12 year captain on the 767 pay rate?

Thanks

The current 12 year 767 CA rate will be $243.22 effective May 1, 2004, a 15% concession would be $206.74.

Whether or not the DAL get's that 15% is another question altogether. John Malone, DAL MEC Chairman, has stated that the window for negotiations is short. If we don't get a mid contract TA soon, the emphasis will shift from mid term contract relief, to preparing for full section six negotiations in August with a PWA amendable date of no earlier than May 1, 2005. Right now negotiations seem to be moving at a snails pace. The DAL MEC offer was 9% + the May pay raise of 4.5%, efectively 13.5% off the May rates. The Company wants over 30%. That's a big gap to try and bridge in the next month or so. IMHO, if there is not a mid contract TA by the end February, the DAL negotiators will walk away from the table and start preparing for secdtion six negotiations in August.

 

[General Lee]

The 15% number (plus the 4.5% raise--or 19.5% total) is just a constant number I hear in the ATL lounge. I am not a negotiator and I do not gather polling numbers.....That is my hunch.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[BIGBROWNDC8]

Dont want to come off arrogant here, but regarding UPS and our current contract neg. I think it is irrelivent how much these airlines are making now due to the laxing economy and how much they "currently" pay their pilot workforce. I feel terrible that the pilots are the ones taking the brunt of the cuts, however, our outlook at UPS should be how valuable (hourly wage) these pilot positions were to the company when they were making money (like UPS is doing). UPS is making record profits (in the multiples of billions of $ every year in profit alone) and we should be compensated the same as these companies from when they were profitable too. The same salaries will be expected from the pilots at DAL, UAL, AA, NWA and all the rest once profits start coming back. We need to set the standard (or rather keep the standard) for DAL and UAL just like they did in 2000 and if we settle for less, were "all" setting ourselves back 5-7 more years for a decent raise until our next contract.

$190 might sound great to many people on this site, but 95% of what we fly at UPS is Heavy, not a 737, the smallest A/C we have is the 757, (727) is going bye bye really soon and its current presents in numbers is not even a real factor in the total count of A/C. Our pay is suppose to be based off the 767 Intl. pay and I think even that is not accurate. We've got the 747, MD-11, A300, 767, DC8, 757 and 727. As far as compensation goes, my vote is "no" unless we get rid of the B-scale for years 2-7 and set the top end numbers for Capts just as they were for DAL/UAL Pre 9-11.

The economy is already showing signs of a recovery. If a pay cut is inevitable at DAL, include a "bounce back clause" for your pay if things get better before your next contract is ammendable. If its ok for them to renegotiate our contract mid-stream, its got to be ok for us too...

 

[Astra Guy]

Ben,

Taxes are part of the costs, just like for you and me when we figure out our disposable income.

General,

$209/hour is not bad...not great but not bad. My comment concerning the gig was that soon there would not be as much of a disparity between DAL and the bulk of the pack.

 

[Cyclone]

not relevant

Delta $245
Northwest $212
Southwest $162
Continental $160
Alaska $158
US Airways $150
American $147
United $147
AirTran $145
JetBlue $136
Frontier $132
America West $120

To those of us looking for a job...most of these are not relevant.
Delta--how many on furlough? How long before they ever hire again?

Northwest--same.

Continental--same.

US Air--same (and will they even be around)

American--same.

United--same as US Air

So...SWA is starting to look like industry leading pay (the others only matter to the select few who currently work there). If you're not growing/adding jobs, the pay just doesn't matter to the market.

 

[Astra Guy]

BIGBROWNDC8,

I understand and don't disagree with your statement.

 

[General Lee]

Astra Guy,

Yeah, I agree with you, but that payrate is just for the 737---not the 777 which is a lot higher. (a 15% cut would equal about a $45 an hour cut---or close to $265 an hour) But, we do not have as many 777s as AA or UA, so it is very hard to get to that payrate. (AA's current 777 Capt payrate is $178 an hour) What can we do? We want our company to survive and do well, and it is hard to keep such a huge Gap in tougher times. I am glad that the economy is returning, and things would have been much worse had it not.

Bye Bye--General Lee