majority of pilots pencil whip??

[corky]

Pilot friend is getting a type via WIA and plans to make it an ATP ride as well. Problem is I know he is at least 300 shy of ATP mins. So he pencil whipped the rest. He claims 90% of the pilots do it. I don't believe it. I think it's his rationalization to sooth his conscience. What do you think? Do most pencil whip?

 

[Hawker rider]

I honestly doubt that there are a lot of pilots that pencil whip their books, as all of them know that if you get caught it's the end of the game.

Most people have sunk too much money in their education to be able to take a risk like that. Exagerating over a beer is one thing, but really put it on paper with the FAA, nobody can be that ignorant.

By the way, airlines are mostly very good judges of character, and the ycan tell if you have the experience that you stated on their applications anyway, you cheat...you're out!

M

 

[bigD]

Well according to the Logbook Padding Poll on the FAR board, 85% of the pilots here wouldn't do it. Some could be FOS, but it's a confidential poll, and I think it's probably reasonably accurate. At least accurate enough to refute your buddy's 90% statement.

Personally, I put a lot of pride into the flying I've done, and I don't think I could bear the thought that my logbook was misrepresentative of the time I've flown.

 

[vclean]

I don't. I believe most do not. It's a matter of personal integrity. Those who pencil-whip their logs probab;y also view rules & regulations with the same contempt. It's all about karma, everything eventually balances out. Your friend may successfully lie his way into the training, but someday an interviewer, FAA investigator, insurance investigator, etc, will learn of it. Perhaps he may not be able to lie when asked during a routine interview or disgruntled friend may turn him in. There is almost always a paper trail somewhere to reconstruct logs.

Convince him to get the 300 hours and go about this in a professional manner. When you are approved for WIA, it is valid for at least a few months. I doubt the training is that time-critical that a short wait is going to cost him a job in today's market.

 

[Whirlwind]

Personally, I have flown every hour in my logs. I see no point to make it up. You can't fake enough time to really matter, and if you did, it would be obvious to someone with more time that you do not know as much about flying as your time would indicate.

In other words, you might be able to fake 5%, but is that 5% worth risking your entire career for? If you pad the books 30%, that will be easy to detect by most employers.

Besides, 20 years from now when you have thousands of hours, you won't be able to look back with pride and know that your books are accurate.

I take great pride in my flying and in my records, I think it is a crying shame that some people have so little honor. Personally, I think padding logbooks should result in your certificates being pulled.

Jason

 

[JediNein]

Or the friend that knows about the cheating becomes a chief pilot on an interview board somewhere. . .

"Sorry Bub, you are still my friend, but my company doesn't operate that way. We can not hire you."


And that situation may be 10 years down the road.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[LearLove]

Don't know much about pencil whipping personal flight time log books but around my company whipping the times (out and in) is whide spread due to moral. Also many guys pulling off 10 or 15 late due to this or that and still calling it on time or even 5 early. Not to even mention the guys flying around at 50 to 60 percent power. Pretty pathetic if you ask me. Then they're the guys who scream the loudest when the company turns around and $rews us.

 

[Timebuilder]

No.

Maybe it's because I was a kid in the fifties. Maybe it's because of the academy motto I lived by, shown below. Maybe it's because to add anything to my logbook that shouldn't be there is just plain wrong.

I find it difficult to imagine the pressure of the culture of moral relativism in which younger people have been raised. I don't envy you, not one iota.

 

[bigD]

I'm not sure that the kids of today are necessarily more morally bankrupt than those of the 50's. Although I'm certainly biased in my opinion!

The job market is very, very competative, and it's bringing out the worst in some people. Who's to say how this market situation would have affected pilots from that generation?

 

[UPS DC8]

What goes around comes around. All the pilots that I know that have pencil wipped in order to get ahead of the next guy have fallen on their faces. Trust me, turd floats to the top. One other thing to remember, it's not where you are at the end of your career, it's how you got there.

 

[Timebuilder]

As a young man, I knew very few kids who would cheat on an exam, even in the public school I attended before fifth grade.

Now, cheating is rampant at high schools and universities, and also at the service academies. The common rationalization is that since "everyone else" is doing it, "I must do it to stay competitive".

The ends do not justify the means. Check out Robert Bork's Slouching Toward Gomorrah.

 

[bigD]

Well Timebuilder, that may be more of a function of the kinds of people you chose to be around while growing up. Although I have witnessed students at my highschool copy an assignment or two from one another, I've never witnessed any cheating on exams. At my University (which granted is limited to the physics department), I haven't seen any dishonest behavior from anyone.

Now I'm not saying it doesn't happen, because I don't generally find myself around the types of people that engange in that kind of activity. Likewise, the fact that you didn't witness it growing up doesn't necessarily mean that it didn't happen then, either.

 

[LearLove]

Funny thing you say "Maybe it's because I was a kid in the fifties". I find that some of the beggest "out/in pencil whippers" tend to be the older guys who were kids in the fifties or born there abouts. And to top it off these guys call the times in on the radio and its recorded, again Pathetic.

Here's a funny/ironic story in reguards to whipping times. The actual hour times have been changed to protect idenity but you'll get the general jist.

A few summers ago I was on a trip that on say day 2 of a 4 day started in MHT. We showed at 1 pm for a 1:45 sked departure to LGA. Well the inbound flight comming from LGA was delayed (go figure, like that never happens) due to traffic congestion bla, bla, bla. We check their out time in Sabre that showed they "pushed" 5 early, but a note was in there as they were to be late for "extended taxi due to traffic congestion at LGA" Anyway the inbound was sked to be at MHT at 1:25 allowing us 20 to swap crews and load for the return trip. The flight actually lands at 1:50 (1:50 as noted by our Capt.) and we swap crews load it up and call out at 2:20 and go to LGA. (2:20 was the actual time of braking brake release, no whipping there). A 30 minute turn, HEY ITS A MAINLINE STATION, DID YOU ACTUALLY EXPECT THEM TO RUSH/PUT SOME EFFORT INTO IT.
So two weeks later I get this "letter of accomidation" in the mail from the company for turning the airplane in 10 minutes at MHT and helping all the pax make connections bla, bla, bla. I'm thinking to myself 10 minute turn it was more like 30 and I can remember it because of the lousy boarding and loading of the mainline rampers. It turns out when I went into sabre to check it the inbound crew padded/whipped their inbound time by like 15 to 20 minutes (most likely for pay purposes) and the mainline guy in ops doesn't care besause that just gives them more time to turn the aircraft and still look like they worked fast. So now we have guys cheating/stealing from the company by padding time for more pay and the stations looking the other way. But to top it all off the company gives the outbound crew an award. I found it funny that I got an award/letter of accomidation for someone else screwing the company, tell me thats not F'd up.

 

[Timebuilder]

BigD, I only know what I experienced in my blue collar steel mill town outside of Philadelphia. We had a large public school with mostly tract home and trailer park kids. The biggest offense in my school was failing to address a teacher by either "sir" or "ma'am". I don't think you'll find this to be the case today.

LearLove, sounds like your company needs to clean house.

 

[bigD]

Mr. Builder - you're definitely right about times changing. Kids aren't as polite or respectful of their elders, we've been desensitized to violence, sex, and various other "bad things" by television and the media.

We're certainly a different generation than those before us. Just like the prior generations were unlike the ones before them.

But it's dangerous to paint with such a large brush, and I guess I feel the need to defend myself because I'd much prefer to be judged *after* someone determines the nature of my character - not based on my age alone.