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majority of pilots pencil whip??

  • Thread starter Thread starter corky
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Is there a difference between...

Padding your log book or buying a twin and perfoming holding out to the public type flying, to get your multi time on someone elses dime?

I had two partners in a 300 series Cessna that were doing 134 1/2 trips. I finally bought one partner out so I could concentrate on sticking it royally to the other one. That EX partner is now selling tavern supplies for a living.

But back onto the subject of padding...not advocating it, but owning your own plane is a good cover for padding your log book. In theory you don't run into the problem that localizer11 mentioned in his DE story. It's still wrong.

I think if people are splitting time in a twin, it's the same as padding in my book, even if there is a legal way to log it.

If some guy came to an interview with 200 hours of safety pilot time in his log book as his only multi after getting the multi rating, I know places that would not consider this applicant for hire. Even a guy that was being paid to part 91 in the right seat in a B-100 King Air. Seen it happen...but that is the subject of a different post.
 
P-51 time

corky said:
Pilot friend is getting a type via WIA and plans to make it an ATP ride as well. Problem is I know he is at least 300 shy of ATP mins. So he pencil whipped the rest. He claims 90% of the pilots do it. I don't believe it. I think it's his rationalization to sooth his conscience. What do you think? Do most pencil whip?
I agree with your analysis of your "friend"; moreover, I think that your "friend" is a cynic and a practitioner of situational ethics. I do not feel at all that most pilots pencil-whip.

I know of one pilot whom I'm positive pencil-whipped his logbook for turbine time. He got hired. I never considered it, ever, ever, no matter how desperate I felt, and I was not hired. But my conscience is clear and maybe his isn't. In no way am I trying to be sanctimonious or regard myself as such; it was important to me that I be hired on my qualifications, and do to the right thing.

I appreciate Timebuilder's Jayson Blair comments. I appreciate Whirlwind's 172 logbook story. I would have done the same thing. I also appreciate TXCAP4228's comments as well.
 
If you put falsehoods in your logbook, then you are just that; a liar and a cheat. If you can not do it the honest way, then don't do it. The ones that do only put there passengers/cargo and themselves in harms way. And eventually, a PC, year check or new hire sim eval will show that they are full of f_____g s__t.

I am proud of every hour that is in the book and the hundreds that aren't.
 
Every hour in my log book is true and accounted for. If anything there are a couple of hundred hours that I have missed. Our system is based on integrity and honesty, once a pilot breaches that he is lower than a scab, a disgrace to the industry. BTW now days that is considered fraud by the FAA and will get you some time in the fed. pen. Hope that your friend enjoys it.
 
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Corky,

I'd rather fly with someone who pencil-whipped than a scab. At least the hours in a pencil-whipper's logbook were not stolen from a real pilot. Neither, however, has any integrity.

That being said, I don't think that the 90% figure is even remotely close. As many have pointed out, it just isn't worth it.
 
Without doing a poll or anything I would say that 90% have never made up a flight and logged it. Maybe 75% have never exagerated or added a .1, etc. I would fly with a scab over someone that made up their time any day of the week.
 
Since we are keeping score count me in, I did not do it, and do not respect those that did. Some will get away with it, but if oa person has even an once of self respect he/she will look away from the mirror at the end of his/her career.

Hopefully that person did not steal a job from another honest aviator who deserved it.

Starting with 00.00 on the S80 shortly, it will a be real, it will be all mine. I earned it!:cool:


AAflyer

The pen is NOT mighter than the power lever.
 
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I highly doubt that alot of pilots do this, your friend is in the minority here. Will he get caught.? Probably not however he will always question this choice in his mind and know that he forged a document and did not get to where he is by "honestly" logging the flight time. I sure would not want this on my mind, I am pretty sure it will be a constant reminder to him over his career IF he has even a semi-honest mindset. It is much better to "earn" a position than obtaining it by fraud or deception. It proves nothing other than a lack of complete honesty.


3 5 0
 
KIND OF THE SAME QUESTION

This is along the same lines but alittle diff.

First we'll set up the situation....

Say you got your commercial single eng. in 1991 and went on to get CFI, Multi and ATP while instructing, flying charter. Then on to 121 operations bla bla bla......

Now its like 8 years later your a 121 capt. and your going over your 5 or so logbooks with like 6000 tt some types and whatever experiance comes with 4 or so years at a regional.

Your doing this to get ready for that interview with ABC Dream Airways, the biggest, most high paying, owner of the best puttin other pilots down scope clause in the industry, your dream of dreams.

Now while your at it you just happen to notice that way back you, your instructor and the DE (or FAA examiner) missed the fact that you never recieved instruction in such and such a maneuver or your a few hours short of say the required x-country time for a piticular rating. This was an honest mistake that just got overlooked by everyone.

What do you do?
 
If by "honest" mistake, you mean an unintentional error that was not designed to mislead, and was overlooked by yourself and someone else while both of you were making a good faith effort to be correct?

Probably nothing.
 
The best defense against a negative generalization is to prevent the formation of the factual basis upon which it is built. The best defense is a good offense.

That's all very true, but I'd also hope that people would do their best to see through a stereotype and make the call on an individual basis. I can't stop people from cheating at other universities - all I can do is hold myself to a specific standard and hope that others don't undermine that via generalizations. Fortunately, I've found that most other pilots don't share in your feeling of justification in doing so.

Sorry everyone if this is slightly off topic - I'm just a sucker for a good discussion! :D
 
This kid that's accepting the WIA funds while falsifying his qualifications to get them...anybody point out to him that it's grand larceny and a federal offense?

Those are my tax dollars the little bastard is spending. He's taking my dollars to go earn a type to compete against me, and he's not even qualified for the job. I say hang him.
 
all I can do is hold myself to a specific standard and hope that others don't undermine that via generalizations.

Actually, you can actively discourage such activity when it comes up in discussion. Say someone wants to sell you some test answers, or a term paper that you could submit as your own. The way you and your friends react can determine if the seller will continue this activity. If his contemporaries will express disdain, he may find the motivation to stop this behavior. The problem is that there is a culture of acceptance, and everyone in a peer group shares responsibility when something becomes acceptable which shouldn't be.

Stigma and shame are powerful motivators, and before it became politically unpopular to "judge" the behavior of others, these reactions were some of the best glue to ever keep a society together. Unfortunately, the post modern culture would rather we all make "our own" judgements about what is right and wrong, according to our situation. In the end, though, situational ethics are no ethics at all.
 
I agree with what you're saying. I guess I just never seem to find myself in a position to discourage cheating. Our professors encourage collaboration on assignments, although we're of course required to do our own work. It's a situation that's conducive to cheating, but it never happens. Or least it doesn't happen in a detectable manner. Physics majors tend to study physics because they want to learn physics - obviously nobody goes into it for the money and chicks! :p Looking at someone else's assignment for answers defeats the learning process.

Also, in the context of flying, I think career pilots tend to be more like physics majors. Most are doing it for reasons beyond the certificates alone. I know a lot of pilots in "my generation", and I can't think of one that would ever consider pencil whipping their logbook. Many of these may very well be willing to cheat on a college exam they don't care about. But I don't know - and I'm not going to assume they would merely because of their age.
 
My logbooks are my diaries and journals. They keep the memories of my time as a pilot. Comments when I was a student pilot mentioned crosswind landings, who I flew with, mechanical problems and the like. Proud comments about landing on the green dot at Oshkosh, my first flight to Mexico, and flying my parents for the first time. My first seaplane flight and my first and only flight in an airship. In my first two weeks as a pilot at a regional, flying to Montreal Canada, Freeport Bahamas, Marathon Florida and landing at LAX for the first time. And, flying for the first time with the person I was to eventually marry. It's my little personal history while a pilot, so to speak.

How can one pencil-whip something so personal? They'd never get the joy of looking back through the logbook and saying, "oh, I remember that flight!", with fond memories of the actual event. Instead, they'd always be wondering if that was an actual flight, or one they had made up.

It's not about the destination, but rather the journey.
 
Pencil-whip it out

English said:
How can one pencil-whip something so personal? They'd never get the joy of looking back through the logbook and saying, "oh, I remember that flight!", with fond memories of the actual event. Instead, they'd always be wondering if that was an actual flight, or one they had made up.

It's not about the destination, but rather the journey.
But for some people, it's the destination, not the journey, that matters (P-F-T discussion, anyone? :) ).

A couple of elementary school memories:

Playing ball and the other team yell, "Cheaters, cheaters."

Or the old adage, "Cheaters never prosper, so don't cheat."

I believe there is a lot of truth in the antidote to anti-authority in the Five Hazardous Thought Processes in ADM. Follow the rules, they're usually right. Not following the rules catches up with you in the end, one way or the other.
 
I lost my job because I was 300 hours shy of meeting the total time requirements for a particular corporate management company. Some people had suggested that I just go ahead and pencil whip the time in order to be approved. I didn't feel comfortable doing it for many of the reasons stated in previous posts. Now, three and a half months later still looking for a flying job, I feel that I made the right decision.
 
I always like to hear avbug's thoughts. This time it was no different. I am still laughing - even though I know its not a laughing matter.

English, I was thinking exactly what you said. My logbook may not have thousands of hours in it but each one is mine. Every once in a while a non-pilot friend will pick up my log book and flip through it.... I tell them that its more than just numbers and letter on a page. Some of the greatest memories in my life are in there.

Integrity matters. But it really matters when it costs you something.
 
When it comes down to it, it should'nt be a matter of whipping out a pencil and fabricating hours to qualify for a particular job. Morality alone should be reason enough not to lie in one's logbook.
I could'nt do it if I wanted to!!
However all that said, unfortunatly GREED does get the better part of some people even if does involve possibly endangering the lives of thousand of unsuspecting people.
Would you want to be a passenger on a flight of someone who just shipped up a few hundred hours in their logbook simply to land that dream job. Sure he or she may have made it through the interview and sim rides and whatever else is involved to land that job (ignorance is now showing cause I do not know what is involved have not had the opportunity :( ). However as mentioned before IT will all catch up with them sooner or later, and it may involve the lives of innocent people.

Don't do it, it is'nt worth it!!
 

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