majority of pilots pencil whip??

[Timebuilder]

If by "honest" mistake, you mean an unintentional error that was not designed to mislead, and was overlooked by yourself and someone else while both of you were making a good faith effort to be correct?

Probably nothing.

 

[bigD]

The best defense against a negative generalization is to prevent the formation of the factual basis upon which it is built. The best defense is a good offense.

That's all very true, but I'd also hope that people would do their best to see through a stereotype and make the call on an individual basis. I can't stop people from cheating at other universities - all I can do is hold myself to a specific standard and hope that others don't undermine that via generalizations. Fortunately, I've found that most other pilots don't share in your feeling of justification in doing so.

Sorry everyone if this is slightly off topic - I'm just a sucker for a good discussion!

 

[avbug]

This kid that's accepting the WIA funds while falsifying his qualifications to get them...anybody point out to him that it's grand larceny and a federal offense?

Those are my tax dollars the little bastard is spending. He's taking my dollars to go earn a type to compete against me, and he's not even qualified for the job. I say hang him.

 

[Timebuilder]

all I can do is hold myself to a specific standard and hope that others don't undermine that via generalizations.

Actually, you can actively discourage such activity when it comes up in discussion. Say someone wants to sell you some test answers, or a term paper that you could submit as your own. The way you and your friends react can determine if the seller will continue this activity. If his contemporaries will express disdain, he may find the motivation to stop this behavior. The problem is that there is a culture of acceptance, and everyone in a peer group shares responsibility when something becomes acceptable which shouldn't be.

Stigma and shame are powerful motivators, and before it became politically unpopular to "judge" the behavior of others, these reactions were some of the best glue to ever keep a society together. Unfortunately, the post modern culture would rather we all make "our own" judgements about what is right and wrong, according to our situation. In the end, though, situational ethics are no ethics at all.

 

[bigD]

I agree with what you're saying. I guess I just never seem to find myself in a position to discourage cheating. Our professors encourage collaboration on assignments, although we're of course required to do our own work. It's a situation that's conducive to cheating, but it never happens. Or least it doesn't happen in a detectable manner. Physics majors tend to study physics because they want to learn physics - obviously nobody goes into it for the money and chicks! Looking at someone else's assignment for answers defeats the learning process.

Also, in the context of flying, I think career pilots tend to be more like physics majors. Most are doing it for reasons beyond the certificates alone. I know a lot of pilots in "my generation", and I can't think of one that would ever consider pencil whipping their logbook. Many of these may very well be willing to cheat on a college exam they don't care about. But I don't know - and I'm not going to assume they would merely because of their age.

 

[English]

My logbooks are my diaries and journals. They keep the memories of my time as a pilot. Comments when I was a student pilot mentioned crosswind landings, who I flew with, mechanical problems and the like. Proud comments about landing on the green dot at Oshkosh, my first flight to Mexico, and flying my parents for the first time. My first seaplane flight and my first and only flight in an airship. In my first two weeks as a pilot at a regional, flying to Montreal Canada, Freeport Bahamas, Marathon Florida and landing at LAX for the first time. And, flying for the first time with the person I was to eventually marry. It's my little personal history while a pilot, so to speak.

How can one pencil-whip something so personal? They'd never get the joy of looking back through the logbook and saying, "oh, I remember that flight!", with fond memories of the actual event. Instead, they'd always be wondering if that was an actual flight, or one they had made up.

It's not about the destination, but rather the journey.

 

[bobbysamd]

Pencil-whip it out

How can one pencil-whip something so personal? They'd never get the joy of looking back through the logbook and saying, "oh, I remember that flight!", with fond memories of the actual event. Instead, they'd always be wondering if that was an actual flight, or one they had made up.

It's not about the destination, but rather the journey.

But for some people, it's the destination, not the journey, that matters (P-F-T discussion, anyone? ).

A couple of elementary school memories:

Playing ball and the other team yell, "Cheaters, cheaters."

Or the old adage, "Cheaters never prosper, so don't cheat."

I believe there is a lot of truth in the antidote to anti-authority in the Five Hazardous Thought Processes in ADM. Follow the rules, they're usually right. Not following the rules catches up with you in the end, one way or the other.

 

[J41 Pilot]

I lost my job because I was 300 hours shy of meeting the total time requirements for a particular corporate management company. Some people had suggested that I just go ahead and pencil whip the time in order to be approved. I didn't feel comfortable doing it for many of the reasons stated in previous posts. Now, three and a half months later still looking for a flying job, I feel that I made the right decision.

 

[TXCAP4228]

I always like to hear avbug's thoughts. This time it was no different. I am still laughing - even though I know its not a laughing matter.

English, I was thinking exactly what you said. My logbook may not have thousands of hours in it but each one is mine. Every once in a while a non-pilot friend will pick up my log book and flip through it.... I tell them that its more than just numbers and letter on a page. Some of the greatest memories in my life are in there.

Integrity matters. But it really matters when it costs you something.

 

[52vincent]

When it comes down to it, it should'nt be a matter of whipping out a pencil and fabricating hours to qualify for a particular job. Morality alone should be reason enough not to lie in one's logbook.
I could'nt do it if I wanted to!!
However all that said, unfortunatly GREED does get the better part of some people even if does involve possibly endangering the lives of thousand of unsuspecting people.
Would you want to be a passenger on a flight of someone who just shipped up a few hundred hours in their logbook simply to land that dream job. Sure he or she may have made it through the interview and sim rides and whatever else is involved to land that job (ignorance is now showing cause I do not know what is involved have not had the opportunity ). However as mentioned before IT will all catch up with them sooner or later, and it may involve the lives of innocent people.

Don't do it, it is'nt worth it!!

 

[Timebuilder]

Physics majors tend to study physics because they want to learn physics - obviously nobody goes into it for the money and chicks!

Or, the pocket protectors???

But I don't know - and I'm not going to assume they would merely because of their age.

Try this formula:

you can use the state of popular culture as the "given", and accept that the state of popular culture accepts cheating. Now, find who's habits and personalities are currently being formed by popular culture and the teaching of situaltional ethics. The answer? Those at greatest risk are the young.

Being young isn't a guarantee that someone would cheat, but it DOES guarantee that he is among those with a statistically high propensity to do so, based on actual studies.

 

[corky]

This kid that's accepting the WIA funds while falsifying his qualifications to get them...anybody point out to him that it's grand larceny and a federal offense?

Those are my tax dollars the little bastard is spending. He's taking my dollars to go earn a type to compete against me, and he's not even qualified for the job. I say hang him.

He's not lying about being unemployed and you don't need ATP mins to get a type. Getting the money for the type is legitamite.

I'm going to call him and tell him what I think about this and try to discourage him from whipping his book.

 

[SquirrelDog]

P51 time?

First of all TIMEBUILDER and BIGD need to get there own room! Enough with the downfall of modern/past ethics of society!

NEXT! A pilot's logbook is a Legal Document recongized by the FAA and anybody else that wants to view it as such. Putting P51 time or (Parker time) in this book is BIG NO NO. I see it being the worst of all evils in aviation; even worse than PFT and Scabing...which by the way many take out of contex.

I had a chance to A: PFT at COTEX awhile ago because I was 50 hours short on multi or B: "add" more time in the book or C: go fly and do it right. For myself there was no blink off an eye but to C: go fly. Today I am better off for it and glad I did it the Honest way, though not at ConExp.

I know pilots that have whip some time. Believe me, they won't work for my company if I am interviewing and can validate this fake time.

As for the 172 story I heard the version that the guy went to an Airline Interview and one of the board members owned the plane he had many hours in, thats even better! SEE YA DUDE have nice new career change!

Logbook pencil whipping BAD, bad monkey!

Squirreldog

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

I always log my time as accurately as possible. No one's logbook can be EXACTLY perfect, but I try.

The only "logbook abuse" I know of is a few pilots extending their block out or in times by a minute or two. I don't do that.

I would say that almost 100% of the pilots I've flown with have logged their times accurately.

Besides the fact that logging your times correctly is the right thing to do, would you want to answer an interviewer who asked you if you ever cheated on your logbook?

Honesty is the best policy.

Cliff
GRB

PS-I have heard of pilots who logged stuff that was wrong because they didn't understand how to log their times, but those were honest mistakes. They weren't trying to take advantage.

 

[Whirlwind]

Honest mistakes are another matter all together, and those are not the same thing as penciling in another 300 hours to get that job.

For example, the first page of my helicopter logbook (I keep seperate books for stuck and fling wing flying) for the longest time had 0.1 error in it. I flew 16 hours on the first page, but for whatever reason the totals at the bottom said 16.1. I didn't catch it for a year, until I finally started putting my numbers into Logbook Pro.

I went in and corrected the first page of course, but that is not a case of padding, that is a case of being bad at punching numbers on a calculator.

On another note, I totally forgot to include two cross country flights in the totals on page 4 of my airplane logbook, didn't notice it until page 13. So I added the numbers to the totals on that page and made a note at the top of the page as to what the correction was for.

I've worked very hard for all my ratings and I'm proud of every one of my hours. I want my logs to be accurate, not because anyone else cares, but because *I* care. That is my flying history, and it has more value to me than anyone else. My kids will look at these logs one day and (hopefully) be proud of their old man, I want them to know my logs are clean.

Ok, I'll get off the soapbox now!

Jason

 

[pilotyip]

we all pad our logbooks

How many on this board after ever blocked out on the road prior to the airplane moving under its own power, for pay purposes. Would that not be considered padding? I will bet the number is greater than 1. In the non-sked business, I have flown with guys who blocked out when they walked on to the ramp. Who is to say 2.5 from LIT to BUF is padding as opposed to the actual of 2.3. .2 per day times, 20 flight days per month ='s 4 hours extra pay per month. This is know as padding for pay, that is usally followed by dozing for dollars. Now of course I have never done any of this, I have only heard rumors around the ramp, in the cockpit, on the F/E's panel.

 

[corky]

Neither is right but I think padding a little before and after the flight is less evil than logging time for a flight you never even flew. I'm not advocating padding but the intent is to get paid more not lie about your qualifications, undercutting someone who is honest when you're both completing for the same job.

 

[jsoceanlord]

i had a guy tell me that it all works out in the end - he was implying that after you've got a few thousand hours, flight time doesn't really matter anyway. (so, it's like it matters at first and years later, it doesn't matter as much)

 

[Typhoon1244]

No. Maybe it's because I was a kid in the fifties.

Of course, nobody ever lied in the Glorious Fifties. (Cigarettes are good for you! President Eisenhower doesn't even know what a U-2 is! Rock Hudson is a real ladies man!) And look at Bill Clinton: he was a kid in the Fifties, and he never told a lie.

Timebuilder, I've got a lot of respect for you and I'm confident you yourself are an honest man...but please. Your generation is not fundamentally more honest than mine or any other. (People even lied in the Bible, you know...)

By the way, all of my hours...what few there are...are real. I've got a much too guilty conscience to try to fake through something like that at an interview!

 

[Timebuilder]

Your generation is not fundamentally more honest than mine or any other. (People even lied in the Bible, you know...)

While you just cited some wonderful exceptions to the rule, I am supported by many studies that are on my side. But hey, go and do your own survey. Call the service academies, and ask about the violations of the Honor System since the 1970's. Have they increased? Ask a principal who has just retired about the level of cheating he has seen in his tenure. Is it worse?

Since you mentioned the Bible, you should know that dishonesty is symptomatic of the state of Man. How well we struggle, or decide to not struggle against dishonesty is a symptom of society.

My point is that situational ethics have made the idea of cheating much more socially acceptable over the past 40 years.

Based on this observation, I'm willing to bet that false flights in logbooks have increased in my lifetime.

 

[dmspilot00]

I'm willing to bet that false flights in logbooks have increased in my lifetime.

I'm willing to bet that real flights in logbooks have increased in your lifetime.

(Both proportionally).

 

[100LL... Again!]

Anyone who pencil whips 300 hours to meet ATP minimums is
(here we go

A FRAUD AND A CHEAT, AND UNWORTHY OF THE CERTIFICATE.

Strong enough for you? He should be turned in. I mean it.

His lie YES LIE , represents one fourth of his real total time.

This whole industry is based on the honor system, and he has proved his word is worth little.

He can sooth his conscience any way he likes. he's a liar.

If it was a friend of mine, I'd be tempted to turn him in. However, to prevent damage to my own career, I would most likely settle for not associating with him anymore.

For those who are sympathetic, flame away.

 

[Typhoon1244]

While you just cited some wonderful exceptions to the rule...

Some?!? Reporters didn't lie in the Fifties? Politicians? Nobody cheated on the spouces? Game shows? Cops trumping up charges against blacks?

A big part of my major in college (Geography/Cartography) was statistics. The most important lesson I came away with is that "studies" like the ones you mentioned are usually unreliable...too much depends on who conducted the study and how.

My point is that situational ethics have made the idea of cheating much more socially acceptable over the past 40 years.

I believe you're right about that, but that didn't deter people from lying in their logbooks in the '30's, '40's, or even the '50's.

Based on this observation, I'm willing to bet that false flights in logbooks have increased in my lifetime.

I'll bet you'd be wrong.

 

[flybrowntails]

Your friend may "pencil whip", "pad", "round-up" or whatever he may call it--the result is still the same. It is a disadvantage to the industry as well as himself. His true ability will be displayed in a sim eval. (PC, PT) or in a real situation (hopefully not).

Enjoy your flight experiences and be proud of what you have truly accomplished. (not to sound to preachy)

Cheers.

 

[pilotyip]

again flt time does define the pilot

Flt time does not define a person's performance in the sim, but if that low hr pilot had been through the proper training there is a very good chance he will be head and shoulders above a 1,000 or 2,000 hr pilot. This guy could have come from the an ANG training program and is qualified to fly the KC-135 or A-10 or F-16. At 300 hrs I was sitting the left seat of a P-3, a 120,000#'s + four engine turbo prop flying around Viet Nam, with one engine shut down most of the time. I did this with no problems because I was properly trained. I have hired army Helo drivers with 50 hrs of fixed time including 5 hrs MEL, they were better pilots than many of our general aviation pilots with 2-3000 hrs, these guys had no problems checking out as Captain on our jets. So logged time alone does make a pilot good or bad. If a pilot cheats blatently on his log book it may define other short cuts in his style

 

[list2002]

I have not been instructing long. But I have seen someone rejected for his ATP practical because of his log book. It seems to be right around that time that padding becomes most tempting. Many 135 guys get these job offers because of connections but tell their buddys they need just a bit more time to be official per FAR's.
Note to the instructors, my fellow instructor signed his 8710 form to help with the gold seal pass rate. No sign off is needed for the initial ATP pratical, and since this is a pretty regular time for some pilots to need a "jump" in their career, there is no need for you to associate their name with yours. If something is fishy, train them and let them do what they will, but if they want your endorsement, remember it lasts 60 days and they can go anywhere they want with it till it expires. Even though some pilots can fly the pants off another in much less time, they may not get past step one, the logbook check of the checkride to prove it. No real "sure thing" on the sign off's
Best of luck