Lying in an Interview

[A Squared]

This subject scomes up occasionally on this board. Ususally it is in hte context of some conviction which was expunged. A popular, but flawed, line of thinking is that if a crime or misdemeanor has been expunged, you are entitled to pretend that it never happened and may lie in response to questions about arrests and convictions.


Here's a case where that line of reasoniong didn't work very well for a pilot in a related issue:

http://www.peo7.com/peo/caselawsDetail41875/Page1.htm

It's a long document but hte short story is a pilot at Mesa was terminated for refusing a flight, and he filed a greivance and as reinstated with no loss of pay. He got called for an interview with Alaska, and in the interview said that he'd never been suspended terminated or otherwise disciplined. Alaska later found out about the termination and fired him for having lied in the interview. He sued, and it was dismissed, he appealed and the dissmisal was upheld.

If someone asks if you've ever been fired, they aren't asking if you've ever been fired but not reinstated, tey're asking if you've been fired. period If somone asks if you've been convicted of anything, they aren't asking if you've had any convictions which haven't been expunged, they're asking if you've had any convictions.

The case also addresses another common misconception; the idea that because the PRIA only requires specific items of information, then the former employer is prohibited form disclosing anything other than those specific items of information. The pilot in this case attempted to use this in his appeal, the judges just laughed at him.

 

[jaxpilot]

How does an airline find out if you have been in an accident or incident if you were not found at fault? I have always wondered that one.

 

[Scube3]

I have another advice for you guys to think about:

If in the other side you go an tell them your conviction and that it was expunge, etc, etc, your chances of getting hired at a National or Major (Alaska, Spirit...) are slim to none in the majority of the cases.
Think about that!


Scube.

 

[A Squared]

I have another advice for you guys to think about:

If in the other side you go an tell them your conviction and that it was expunge, etc, etc, your chances of getting hired at a National or Major (Alaska, Spirit...) are slim to none in the majority of the cases.
Think about that!


Scube.

Uhhh yeah, and in hte example I gave the guy tried your method and he got fired, now he's got to explain getting fired for lying to an enployer, as well as a previous termiantion which was overturned.

But if he'd been honest, he'd probably still be at Alaska. But lying for sure got him fired. Which would you pick?

 

[Scube3]

That's not my method, that's something to think about. That's all.
I personally don't think you can get into Alaska with any convictions (in most of the cases).

I wonder how many guys got hired into different companies with expunge convicitions and no one ever find out.... I wonder!. We'll never know.

Scube.

 

[Resume Writer]

Good post, ASquared. It is very important to disclose anything to you "think" can be found out. If a person tells the story, with the proper humility where appropriate, and then what he/she learned out of it, then that person might have a chance.

There is another lesson to be learned here. Do not burn bridges or make your co-workers mad at you.

There was one thing that disturbed me, though. That is the fact that the union MEC person was contacted and he disclosed the information. Having been in a union, it was my understanding that proceedings such as this are confidential. Perhaps there was not a clause put into his reinstatement that prohibited this, but it makes me uneasy.

 

[stearnst]

It's childish, but I laughed when I saw the case...Boring vs. Alaska Airlines

 

[time builder]

I have another advice for you guys to think about:

If in the other side you go an tell them your conviction and that it was expunge, etc, etc, your chances of getting hired at a National or Major (Alaska, Spirit...) are slim to none in the majority of the cases.
Think about that!


Scube.

I'm with you, I don't think he would have been hired in the first place if he had disclosed it from the beginning. Employers can tell you 'til they're blue in the face that they respect you for your honesty, but the track record doesn't always show it.
I'm not saying that we should be dishonest, just that employers should do more to reward those who disclose information that could have been hidden.

 

[FN FAL]

I'm not saying that we should be dishonest, just that employers should do more to reward those who disclose information that could have been hidden.

I'm surprised in this day and age of liability and "homeland insecurity", that 121 operators of large turbine equipment aren't required to perform polygraph tests on applicants.

Maybe that one America West pilot that arrested for a murder it is alleged he committed for hire about 20 years ago, would have been denied a job flying hundreds of potential murder victims around on a daily basis.

 

[atlcrashpad]

Read the report. This guy dug a hole and kept digging. Oh well.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

I only read the first few pages, but it sounds like an enemy of his made an unsolicited call to inform Alaska about his termination and reinstatment and then brought into question his skills and abilities including an inability to upgrade. They also mention problems with CRM and his personality. Maybe the grey area of the termination could have been straightened out or overlooked, but the training issues may have opened up a can of worms where they were able to legally let him ago after being hired.

 

[LearLove]

"It's a long document but hte short story is a pilot at Mesa was terminated for refusing a flight, and he filed a greivance and as reinstated with no loss of pay"

If he was given his job back without loss of pay the whole thing sould be whiped off his/her record like it never happened.

 

[paulsalem]

Along the same lines:

If an application asks if you've ever been convicted of a crime, does a traffic ticket count?

 

[Catnhat]

Usually there are separate questions regarding traffic violations. Typically, a traffic violation is not a crime, unless it is accompanied by an additional charge like reckless endangerment. This (at least in my state) will result in a traffic ticket, for speeding for instance, and an additional misdemeanor charge of RE if the speed is excessive.

Along this line, do companies ask or have the right to ask about arrests that do NOT result in a conviction, or where charges are dropped?

 

[MissKittyKat]

Personally, I've not read the report yet, however, honesty is important.

Here are some examples, there are plenty of people with dui's who have cleared up their record and got jobs. It is hard to get any job, with a crimimal record of any sort or any kind. My finacee has been arrested on a gun charge and believe me, it was not pretty for him. But he has always had a flying job, because he told it upfront.

It is even harder today, with security and 911, backround checks, the whole nine yards. Be careful, If you want a career even if it is non aviation, be honest and work to clean up your record of any sort.

 

[JSky26]

I got a ticket for a city ordinance violation - possession of alcohol by a minor a couple years back (haha, hence my avator) and I was planning on getting it expunged. Is it even worth it? In addition to that, I have a ticket for committing an "improper lane change", which I didn't get expunged.

I'm a CFI right now and worried that this will effect my future?

 

[landlover]

I got a ticket for a city ordinance violation - possession of alcohol by a minor a couple years back (haha, hence my avator) and I was planning on getting it expunged. Is it even worth it? In addition to that, I have a ticket for committing an "improper lane change", which I didn't get expunged.

I'm a CFI right now and worried that this will effect my future?

Don't bother getting it expunged. just explain it honestly and next thing you know you'll be on a layover with the same captain that interviewed you having beers. For the traffic violation, dont even worry about that one. I know plenty of guys that have 1 or more suspensions on their drivers license and they fly for several different majors.

 

[lowtimedriver]

Along the same lines:

If an application asks if you've ever been convicted of a crime, does a traffic ticket count?

Traffic tickets are not crimes, but are infractions.

 

[FN FAL]

Usually there are separate questions regarding traffic violations. Typically, a traffic violation is not a crime, unless it is accompanied by an additional charge like reckless endangerment. This (at least in my state) will result in a traffic ticket, for speeding for instance, and an additional misdemeanor charge of RE if the speed is excessive.

Along this line, do companies ask or have the right to ask about arrests that do NOT result in a conviction, or where charges are dropped?

Post something citable, state laws are on the internet...cite your reference please.

Typically a traffic violation is a violation of motor vehicle code, that's why you get to cut the judge out of the process when you sign the ticket and post signature bond with the police officer, driving away with your pink copy instead of going to jail until you see a judge.

 

[Berkut]

http://law.enotes.com/everyday-law-encyclopedia/crimes#felonies-misdemeanors-infractions

An infraction, sometimes called a petty offense, is the violation of an administrative regulation, an ORDINANCE, a municipal code, and, in some jurisdictions, a state or local traffic rule. In many states an infraction is not considered a criminal offense and thus not punishable by incarceration. Instead, such jurisdictions treat infractions as civil offenses. Even in jurisdictions that treat infractions as criminal offenses, incarceration is not usually contemplated as punishment, and when it is, confinement is limited to serving time in a local jail. Like misdemeanors, infractions are often defined in very broad language. For example, one state provides that any offense that is defined "without either designation as a felony or a misdemeanor or specification of the class or penalty is a petty offense" (see AZ ST § 13-602).

http://www.co.thurston.wa.us/distcrt/traffic.htm

In 1981, the Legislature decriminalized many minor traffic offenses to promote public safety and to facilitate the implementation of a uniform and expeditious system for the disposition of such offenses. Common traffic infractions are speeding, seat belt and liability insurance violations. Since 1989, other types of minor offenses have been decriminalized, including certain parks, wildlife, and fisheries offenses. These offenses are called infractions and are considered civil cases.

http://janus.state.me.us/legis/statutes/29-A/title29-Asec103.html

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]§103. Traffic infraction[/FONT]

1. Traffic infraction. A traffic infraction is not a crime. The penalty for a traffic infraction may not be deemed for any purpose a penal or criminal punishment.[FONT=courier, fixed] [1993, c. 683, Pt. A, §2 (new); Pt. B, §5 (aff).][/FONT]

2. Jury trial. There is no right to trial by jury for a traffic infraction.[FONT=courier, fixed] [1993, c. 683, Pt. A, §2 (new); Pt. B, §5 (aff).][/FONT]

3. Exclusive penalty. The exclusive penalty for a traffic infraction is a fine of not less than $25 nor more than $500, unless specifically authorized, or suspension of a license, or both.[FONT=courier, fixed] [1995, c. 584, Pt. B, §2 (amd).][/FONT]

http://www2.state.id.us/fourthjudicial/FOURTH%20DISTRICT/TrafficCaseProcess.html

B. Infractions: Minor traffic offenses in Idaho are called infractions. An infraction is not a crime but is a civil public offense for which there is a maximum penalty of $100.00 and for which there can be no jail time imposed. The Supreme Court has established by court rule a fixed penalty schedule for infraction violations. The fixed penalties cannot be increased, decreased, suspended, or withheld by any court. The penalty is more in the nature of a fee, and the fixed penalty is not a criminal fine. Because an infraction is not a crime, a defendant may never be arrested for an infraction and may never be required to post bail.