LUV Will Grow Little Or None In 2009

[JoeMerchant]

A contingent of Southwest pilots was the ones that got the ball rolling on Age 65 over a decade ago and kept the issue alive all these years. It wasn’t until the bankruptcies post 911 that the legacy pilots starting selling out the junior guys and jumped on the Age 65 bandwagon.

Now the timing couldn’t be worse. The Age 65 legislation will needlessly destroy the careers of many, many junior folks as the industry massively downsizes over the next few years both in furloughs and reduced career earnings.

Instead of fixing their pension problems, retiree medical or worthless stock options themselves via their own contract; Southwest pilots have left a path of destruction in their wake. Now their junior pilots will start paying a price like the rest of us.

Again, great job Southwest.

AA767AV8TOR

Simple question AA767....Are you financially prepared to retire at age 60?

 

[Tejas-Jet]

:smash:

Spin worthy of the Clinton adminstartion, but Age 65 garbage all started with clods from LUV that had neither a life nor retirement to get them away from 6 leg days. ALPA joining certainly hurt (bite me JP!), but the early shots came right from your house. What union was it that was the PRO 65 when everyone else was firmly against? What company did the president of APAAD work for again?

The change to age 65 started with just one guy...and it grew from there.

Likewise, the age change back to age 60 will eventually start with one guy....

...Are you that guy? ...or are you just a whiner?

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

The change to age 65 started with just one guy...and it grew from there.

Likewise, the age change back to age 60 will eventually start with one guy....

...Are you that guy? ...or are you just a whiner?

Yes, the process starts with one guy or one group. But given LUV’s position in the industry since 911, what exactly have your pilots done to better the profession this past decade? And don’t tell me the pay rates since you all rode in on the coattails of UAL and Delta and just haven’t had to endure the paycuts like the rest of us.

Like I said, has SWAPA done anything to capitalize on their industry standing?? Have they improved your pay rates, retiree medical, increased pension benefits, or done anything about your worthless stock options?

No, they’re having love fests with Herb while getting played like a tune and giving the rest of us Age 65.

Ultimately, Age 65 will prove disastrous to many junior crewmembers over the next few years as the industry shrinks in a major way. This started with your group. We at APA saw it for what it was (a transfer of wealth from junior to senior). We tried to stop the train-wreck but unfortunately didn’t have the political muscle.

AA767AV8TOR

 

[Herkdrv]

And just what have you done lately? Go find a dog to slap, you need some serious help.

Spare the dog. He should jumpseat on DL to Kiev and bring back on of these. http://www.hotrussianbrides.com/hot-russian-brides/profile-189488.aspx

If you have to come home to this everyday I would imagine the anger issues would go away

 

[scoreboardII]

Yes, the process starts with one guy or one group. But given LUV’s position in the industry since 911, what exactly have your pilots done to better the profession this past decade?

Remained profitable, provided a secure job to it's employees, remains a fun place to work, unlike AA apparently...

And don’t tell me the pay rates since you all rode in on the coattails of UAL and Delta and just haven’t had to endure the paycuts like the rest of us.

I didn't, I won't. But since you brought it up, why didn't YOUR employeee group stick to it's guns and demand higher pay? Thats what I thought...

Like I said, has SWAPA done anything to capitalize on their industry standing?? Have they improved your pay rates, retiree medical, increased pension benefits, or done anything about your worthless stock options?

In discussion now, and I bet we get a better deal than you will ever see in your lifetime.

No, they’re having love fests with Herb while getting played like a tune and giving the rest of us Age 65.

Whats wrong with celebrating success? Oh, thats right, there is none over at old AA... We didn't give you age 65, ICAO did, why not try to come to the discussion armed with facts?

Ultimately, Age 65 will prove disastrous to many junior crewmembers over the next few years as the industry shrinks in a major way.

Agreed, but your anger is directed to the wrong group, WE didn't bring age 65, ICAO did that.

This started with your group.

Once again... wrong.

We at APA saw it for what it was (a transfer of wealth from junior to senior). We tried to stop the train-wreck but unfortunately didn’t have the political muscle.

You apparently have no muscle.

AA767AV8TOR

But thanks for trying...

 

[StopNTSing]

Ultimately, Age 65 will prove disastrous to many junior crewmembers over the next few years as the industry shrinks in a major way. This started with your group. We at APA saw it for what it was (a transfer of wealth from junior to senior). We tried to stop the train-wreck but unfortunately didn’t have the political muscle.

AA767AV8TOR

Oh, get off your high horse already! As an FO, I'm sure you were opposed to it from the get-go....big surprise (FWIW, as a junior captain over here at SWA, I wasn't real keen on it either...I'll be a commuter for many more years now). But hey, if APA has as much anti-age 60 solidarity as you claim, then I'm sure you guys can push through a mandatory age 60 retirement side letter for your contrAAct. Why not focus your efforts on that instead of whining on an airline message board about how the world owes you an upgrade?

 

[GuppyWN]

That's what I was thinking. Nothing says your contract has to allow you to fly until 65 - that is unless you greedy bastards want to stay until 65.

I voted against spending a dime on the effort so don't point your fingers this way.

Gup

 

[jhill]

>>>>Southwest Airlines will grow little or none in 2009, CEO says <<<

He's playing a game of poker, putting the legacies to sleep so the Legacies won't worry so much about leaving markets and SWA taking them, then he'll surprise them.

No, He's playing poker with the pilots. Wants to trade wages freezes for growth.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Ultimately, Age 65 will prove disastrous to many junior crewmembers over the next few years as the industry shrinks in a major way. This started with your group. We at APA saw it for what it was (a transfer of wealth from junior to senior). We tried to stop the train-wreck but unfortunately didn’t have the political muscle.

AA767AV8TOR

AA767,

I have some more questions for you....The first one you ignored the first time I asked it...

1. Are you financially ready to retire at age 60?

2. If APA is opposed to this, why don't you just negotiate a mandatory age 60 retirement in your contract....Then you will get what you want....

3. Wasn't it the APA group that first negotiated the B scale?

I doubt you will answer these questions as you seem to ignore the tough questions that are thrown your way and prefer to lob anonymous attacks at others...

 

[Bob_Sacamano]

Get it right, Bunghole. All we ever do is 7 or 8 legs days with overnights in Lubbock.

:smash:

Spin worthy of the Clinton adminstartion, but Age 65 garbage all started with clods from LUV that had neither a life nor retirement to get them away from 6 leg days. ALPA joining certainly hurt (bite me JP!), but the early shots came right from your house. What union was it that was the PRO 65 when everyone else was firmly against? What company did the president of APAAD work for again?

 

[momalley81]

We at APA saw it for what it was (a transfer of wealth from junior to senior). We tried to stop the train-wreck but unfortunately didn’t have the political muscle.

APA President Lloyd Hill confided in SWAPA President Carl Kulwitsky that he hoped Age 60 would go away. Of course he will never admit that but I heard the account first hand.

Many APA reps have also told our SWAPA reps they wished the APA could have a good working relationship with AMR; just like SWAPA has with SWA management.

APA is a spineless no muscle union.

How do I know?

I am a former AA pilot now flying for SWA.

 

[waveflyer]

No, He's playing poker with the pilots. Wants to trade wages freezes for growth.

wage freezes for growth?

ummm....b-scales.....scope.....any of that ringing a bell? no legacy- especially AA has a right to critique anyone on any front, much less that one.

btw_ call it flame-but i hope the truth of that hurts your pride. AA and all legacy pilots had 2 servings of ego for every 1/4 serving of foresight-
You honestly didn't think your tradition of selling out the junior in new and creative ways wouldn't come back to bite you?

 

[JoeMerchant]

APA President Lloyd Hill confided in SWAPA President Carl Kulwitsky that he hoped Age 60 would go away. Of course he will never admit that but I heard the account first hand.

Many APA reps have also told our SWAPA reps they wished the APA could have a good working relationship with AMR; just like SWAPA has with SWA management.

APA is a spineless no muscle union.

How do I know?

I am a former AA pilot now flying for SWA.

You mean a union rep. lied? Say it ain't so......

 

[Skybus]

Millions RJones??? how did you come up with this figure? Perhaps you are overyly optomistic re: upcomming new contract??

 

[waveflyer]

Millions RJones??? how did you come up with this figure? Perhaps you are overyly optomistic re: upcomming new contract??

I'll keep my current contract and it'll cost me $1million.

Einstein answered when asked 'What's the most powerful force in the Universe?'

'Compound Interest'.

 

[nimtz]

adminstartion? What are ya, frickin' drunk? Those "clods" were going nowhere until ALPA gave them credibility. Have another beer, whackjob. uke:

HEY I CAN MAKE AN BS FACE MOTION TOO :crying:

That honestly is your best defense!?! I very sorry you feel that way cause it means you pay union dues for the equvalent of a limp dick (probably sop for you)...

Let me ask u a simple question was SWAPA pro or against age 65 before and during 2007? When you answer that and check your union dues statements from your paycheck in 2007 then feel free to critque. In the meantime, b!te me...

 

[nimtz]

The change to age 65 started with just one guy...and it grew from there.

Likewise, the age change back to age 60 will eventually start with one guy....

...Are you that guy? ...or are you just a whiner?

In your eyes I'm sure I'm just some punk kid, but given your previous posts I could care less. I've learned enough in my time to know that anyone that refers to themselves as from 'tejas' is a rod to be left alone at the bar regardless of a promise to buy a 'dollar' beer for you ...

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

AA767,

I have some more questions for you....The first one you ignored the first time I asked it...

1. Are you financially ready to retire at age 60?

2. If APA is opposed to this, why don't you just negotiate a mandatory age 60 retirement in your contract....Then you will get what you want....

3. Wasn't it the APA group that first negotiated the B scale?

I doubt you will answer these questions as you seem to ignore the tough questions that are thrown your way and prefer to lob anonymous attacks at others...

Merchant,

I read the stuff coming from you guys and it’s no wonder the industry and our profession is in its current tailspin. You really have no clue of the ominous impact for the entire industry you guys caused by the Age 65 ruling. Standby to watch the carnage you help cause unfold over the next few years as the industry goes through its massive downsizing.

Southwest was the leading group of pilots that got the ball rolling on 65 over a decade ago. I watched it happen and was involved in the fight from the beginning. To blame it on ICAO while your group whole-heartily supported the measure is a bunch of cowardliness. This measure would have never seen the light of day if it wasn’t for the initial and long-standing support of the Southwest pilots. It’s obvious you do not understand the political impact your group has on the industry.

To Momalley that said Lloyd Hill supported Age 60 is complete spin. Why don’t you try reading some of his campaign literature? I’ve talked to him myself many times on the subject. Besides, our membership was solidly against the self destructive proposal.

To answer your questions Merchant:

1) I was ready until Age 65 cost me an additional 3-5 years in the right seat at a 68% cap in pay.
The rules were changed in the middle of the game.

2) You really have no clue to negotiations and lawsuits do you?? If APA was to go against the Federal law of Age 65, the entire union would be subject to a massive and unwinnable litigation.

3) No APA wasn’t the first, AA was the first major airline to implement it on a large scale 25 years ago. Read the book “Hard Landing” if you want to know your history.

Now let me ask you again – given your leading position in the industry, what has SWAPA actually done to improve our profession over the last five years besides giving us all Age 65?? How's your contract negotiations coming along or are you too busy giving love fests to Herb?

It’s funny hear how spineless and weak APA is coming from a group of pilots that have done virtually nothing while leading the pack since 911. At least we had retirement and medical plans set-up to encourage guys to retire at Age 60.

I also had one of you jumpseating a couple of weeks ago and he was telling us all about how your new-hire classes are now mostly made up of the over 60 guys coming back to work. You do realize there is an impending lawsuit from the “over 60 guys” trying to get back their seniority. What a sad joke.

AA767AV8TOR

 

[goahead]

Merchant,

I also had one of you jumpseating a couple of weeks ago and he was telling us all about how your new-hire classes are now mostly made up of the over 60 guys coming back to work. You do realize there is an impending lawsuit from the “over 60 guys” trying to get back their seniority. What a sad joke.


AA767AV8TOR

I'm assuming your talking about ASA and while I don't have a dog in this fight I can tell you that I haven't done OE on anyone over 30 in a long time.

 

[SkiFishFly]

I thought it started in Europe with ICAO changing the rules to allow age 65...