LUV vs. JBLU (Monday Matchup)

[Bill Nelson]

good stats on both

http://www.forbes.com/2003/08/25/cx_dd_0825mondaymatch.html?partner=yahoo&referrer=

 

[Newjetjockey]

Jet Blues Cost per available seat mile (June 30, 2003): 6.07 cents

Does anyone have any predictions on what their CASM will be when they have to start paying for their aircraft?

 

[Newjetjockey]

Jet Blue's Cost per available seat mile (June 30, 2003): 6.07 cents

Does anyone have any predictions on what their CASM will be when they have to start paying for their aircraft?

 

[jointops]

NJJ,

I know your question has good intent. However, the issue of us paying for aircraft is a dead horse on this forum. Do a search and you'll see all the related discussions. Suffice it to say, we have been paying for our aircraft from the beginning. The old saying "if it's too good to be true" still holds true. Nobody gets aircraft for free these days. Not even us. I promise.

Happy landings

 

[OakRBust]

jointops... what about the answer to the second post he had?



It's 2 for 1 day here on fi.com!!!

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

Jet Blue's Cost per available seat mile (June 30, 2003): 6.07 cents

Does anyone have any predictions on what their CASM will be when they have to start paying for their aircraft?

Maybe the question to ask would have been what will their CASM be after they start footing their entire mx bill.

And does anyone know when their special mx deal from Airbus expires?

 

[LearAv8r]

uhhh. don't for get to add the pilot training costs too......

(I could be wrong but I think Airbus covers training on some of the initial crews when they get a new a/c).


I wonder if they got the same deal for the RJ's?





L-

 

[jetblue320]

Unreal

You guys just don't get it do you?

1) We do pay for our planes. More than 70% of our fleet was bought and mortgaged at various banks and lending institutions and the other 30% are lease backs after we bought them outright, cash. Next time you happen to catch a free ride with us just look at the data plate on the cockpit wall and see who the lender is, if you are curious. Wells Fargo is common. I don't think they are in the business of carrying paper on airplanes without payment.

2) Our maintenance is not free or reduced by Airbus. We have always had our own maintenance department and parts stores from both Airbus and IAE, stores that we paid for, cash.

3) We only got about 85-90 training slots (maybe less, I can't remember but they are long since used up) by buying planes from Airbus. We have been operating our own training department for over two years. They are jetBlue employees. We only used Airbus IP's when we were jammed and and short staffed and we have weaned off of them completely. In fact, most of them came to work for us over time. And we bought some of the A320 sims in MIA that we use, cash.

4) The training center we are building in MCO is ours, we are paying for it, not the city of Orlando. We will have I think 4 each of A320 and EMB190 sims there too as well as CPT's, cabin trainers, the lot.

5) They are not, repeat not, RJ's

It's all documented, just take the time to look it up. We are a publicly traded company so all this is disclosed info.


I fail to see what any of that has to do with getting an interview and why it is posted in this section of the forum anyway.

The truth about our CASM is that it will continue to decline slightly for a few more years. It's math you know.

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

Re: Unreal

2) Our maintenance is not free or reduced by Airbus. We have always had our own maintenance department and parts stores from both Airbus and IAE, stores that we paid for, cash.

Im pretty sure everyone knows you are paying for your airplanes but you are the first here to claim that you are not getting a mx deal from Airbus. If you are not getting one you should be, from what I understand its fairly common for a start up airline to get pretty heafty incentives when they buy a bunch of aircraft.

I wasnt trying to flame, just trying to acertain when the mx deal expires. Maybe there is no deal but most other JetBlue people on this board seem to be aware of one.

JetBlue is by far the most rapidly growing and successful startup that the industry has ever seen. If anyone can make it im sure that they can. But to say that they are out of the woods before they have even entered them is a little presumtuous. There are many growing pains that they have not yet experienced. Im sure they will find ways to accomodate them and probably come out smelling like a rose. These next few years should be very interesting with the rapid growth and fleet diversification. Hopefully they will end up writing the "How to" book instead of the "How Not to"

 

[Skank]

How about this:
Why not tell us what these maintenance deals usually entail, since they are, as you claim, fairly common? Furthermore, who has these deals, and who with? What are the exact details of these deals?

As far as I know, there are warrantied items, and other contract specifications which may provide reimbusement for items that fail prematurely. But as to these so-called "maintenance deals," you tell us.

 

[jointops]

320,

Thanks for responding for me on this. We've been moving into the house and I haven't checked in for a while.

 

[jetblue320]

Re: Re: Unreal

Im pretty sure everyone knows you are paying for your airplanes but you are the first here to claim that you are not getting a mx deal from Airbus. If you are not getting one you should be, from what I understand its fairly common for a start up airline to get pretty heafty incentives when they buy a bunch of aircraft.

I wasnt trying to flame, just trying to acertain when the mx deal expires. Maybe there is no deal but most other JetBlue people on this board seem to be aware of one.

JetBlue is by far the most rapidly growing and successful startup that the industry has ever seen. If anyone can make it im sure that they can. But to say that they are out of the woods before they have even entered them is a little presumtuous. There are many growing pains that they have not yet experienced. Im sure they will find ways to accomodate them and probably come out smelling like a rose. These next few years should be very interesting with the rapid growth and fleet diversification. Hopefully they will end up writing the "How to" book instead of the "How Not to"

Like Skank said, what kind of deal? I am sure that we have warranties and such. Only an idiot would buy a new piece of expensive gear without one. And maybe yes, there is some kind of unknown, stealth type secret handshake, but I doubt it. AIrbus is in business for the money, not the relationship. Although they are correlated.

No sweat, I wasn't accusing you or anyone of flaming. And maybe I was a bit defensive. You see, it simply gets old hearing from outsiders that we have cheated and conieved our way to the top. Trust me, we have made it to the top on our own merit and it's all above board.

Thank you for the kind words about the book!.

See ya

 

[Swass]

You guys are pretty dang defensive, aren't you? It seems to me that the Blue guys are always defending their company like it's soooo much better than everyone else's company. You never really see much of the SW guys having to defend their company, we all know that their way of doing things works. They pretty much say how nice it is to work there and how stable it is, etc. You guys spend most of your time getting pissed when someone starts a thread and it goes in this direction.What I'm saying is that since you guys are so new we are just waiting for the other shoe to drop, so to speak. Growth as fast as yours normally doesn't come without a price, somewhere, sometime. Flame away, I'm wearing my welding helmet.

 

[LearAv8r]

ok.................


"5) They are not, repeat not, RJ's"


like the guy from the Ditech commercial,


"RRRRRRIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGGHHHHHHTTTTT!!!!!!"



here is a sample of Ned:

http://www.calendarlive.com/tv/cl-ditech_hi8y34kf,0,3589165.photo?coll=cl-home-more-channels

 

[Dizel8]

Swass,

Not really defensive, but perhaps pretty dang tired of hearing the same story repeated ad naseum. It always goes something like this: Just wait until (insert here), then JBLU will be toast, etc, etc.

Not sure we have any special deals with Airbus, but if we do and they are different than what UAL, NWA gets, then I would call that pretty smart management. I would not be privy to such, but I am sure our lenders are and they are way more savvy than I will ever be, yet, seems to be no problem financing more birds.

As far as JBLU being better, not sure what to say. Its an airline that sticks to basics, good service at a good price, apparently that sits well with our customers. Never was a secret, that we have borrowed pretty heavily from SWA, exactly because it works. We may be flavour of the month, but I for obvious reasons hope not and while I doubt it, in this biz, only time can tell.

Lear Av8r,

No, they are not RJ's. You can say that, until you are blue in the face (pun intended) but reading the specs and seeing the pictures, it is as much an RJ as the B-717 and the F-100. It is not an ERJ-145 or the stretched BRJ, which has about as much headroom as a LR-24, at least it seems like it

 

[Mugs]

I read an article that I believe was in Money magazine about 4 months ago. It had an interview in it with Neelman that asked about the maintenance cost issue and Jetblue. Neelman said in the article that when the cost of aircraft maintenance matures at JB, the studies JB has done indicate that the CASM figure will increase by one cent. This article of course came out before the 100 seat (there, I didn't say RJ) aircraft were ordered. So who knows how that plays into the figures.

 

[jetblue320]

You guys are pretty dang defensive, aren't you? It seems to me that the Blue guys are always defending their company like it's soooo much better than everyone else's company. You never really see much of the SW guys having to defend their company, we all know that their way of doing things works. They pretty much say how nice it is to work there and how stable it is, etc. You guys spend most of your time getting pissed when someone starts a thread and it goes in this direction.What I'm saying is that since you guys are so new we are just waiting for the other shoe to drop, so to speak. Growth as fast as yours normally doesn't come without a price, somewhere, sometime. Flame away, I'm wearing my welding helmet.

Maybe if the posts on this forum weren't so offensive, we wouldn't get defensive. I never said we were soooo much better than everyone else's company. Yes, we have a lot to learn and a long way to go, no doubt.
Maybe the SW guys don't really care if people are mis-informed about their company, but I do. This forum is about a free exchange of information. At least, I thought it was.
Maybe your statement about paying the price of fast growth is true, maybe not. Tell me, what was the price (or more appropriately who paid it) for SW over the past 30+ years?

 

[Eagleflip]

Les, if anybody at JB is "incredibly arrogant" I'd be the first to tell them to "simmah down now..." We're incredibly lucky. Heck, I'm incredibly lucky. That, and a bit of blue culture, adds up to a successful startup.

What you may see on this forum is several JB crewmembers defending a small company poised on the brink of becoming a "major." I too am tired of the same old JetBlue bashing on these forums, from "wait until you guys start paying for your jets" to "JB pilots are causing industry wages to tumble." I suppose I try to quelch these unfounded rumors as best I can, but it probably comes off as defensive.

I'm interested in what you heard in a crew van that led you to believe our pilots are arrogant, though. Can you give us the low down?

 

[FL717]

The jetBlue people need to tone down somewhat. The SWA pilots seem to be more level headed with their success, but boy those folks at jetBlue (and Airtran also) seem to be incredibly arrogant... on these forums.. and in the crew vans. They are quickly becoming what they "claim" the legacy carrier crews behave like.

They are quickly getting an "attitude' for no readily apparent reason. You all are profitable... ya hoo. But it takes "years" of a profitable business to "make it". Even then there's no reason for the crowing.

Les

I have been with AirTran long enough, and have overnighted everywhere numerous times to be reasonably sure you don't regularly ride the crew vans with AirTran crews. We are in the vans 95% of the time with other AirTran crews or by ourselves. We do share with Jetblue, and Eagle occasionally, but everyone is very friendly.

I need more info on your statement... otherwise I'm a little sceptical.

You don't have a dog in this fight by chance do you? Your post seems questionable.

 

[Eagleflip]

I think the new "goatees" that the jetBlue pilots are now suddenly sporting is also indicative of this "attitude".

BWHA-HAHAHAHAHA! You're basing your assumption of arrogance on this? YGBSM!

It isn't arrogance...it's an ugly fashion trend.

I'm just lucky you don't base my attitude on my looks...or my height, as I am currently dawg ugly and "vertically challenged."