LUV vs. JBLU (Monday Matchup)

[Bill Nelson]

good stats on both

http://www.forbes.com/2003/08/25/cx_dd_0825mondaymatch.html?partner=yahoo&referrer=

 

[Newjetjockey]

Jet Blues Cost per available seat mile (June 30, 2003): 6.07 cents

Does anyone have any predictions on what their CASM will be when they have to start paying for their aircraft?

 

[Newjetjockey]

Jet Blue's Cost per available seat mile (June 30, 2003): 6.07 cents

Does anyone have any predictions on what their CASM will be when they have to start paying for their aircraft?

 

[jointops]

NJJ,

I know your question has good intent. However, the issue of us paying for aircraft is a dead horse on this forum. Do a search and you'll see all the related discussions. Suffice it to say, we have been paying for our aircraft from the beginning. The old saying "if it's too good to be true" still holds true. Nobody gets aircraft for free these days. Not even us. I promise.

Happy landings

 

[OakRBust]

jointops... what about the answer to the second post he had?



It's 2 for 1 day here on fi.com!!!

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

Jet Blue's Cost per available seat mile (June 30, 2003): 6.07 cents

Does anyone have any predictions on what their CASM will be when they have to start paying for their aircraft?

Maybe the question to ask would have been what will their CASM be after they start footing their entire mx bill.

And does anyone know when their special mx deal from Airbus expires?

 

[LearAv8r]

uhhh. don't for get to add the pilot training costs too......

(I could be wrong but I think Airbus covers training on some of the initial crews when they get a new a/c).


I wonder if they got the same deal for the RJ's?





L-

 

[jetblue320]

Unreal

You guys just don't get it do you?

1) We do pay for our planes. More than 70% of our fleet was bought and mortgaged at various banks and lending institutions and the other 30% are lease backs after we bought them outright, cash. Next time you happen to catch a free ride with us just look at the data plate on the cockpit wall and see who the lender is, if you are curious. Wells Fargo is common. I don't think they are in the business of carrying paper on airplanes without payment.

2) Our maintenance is not free or reduced by Airbus. We have always had our own maintenance department and parts stores from both Airbus and IAE, stores that we paid for, cash.

3) We only got about 85-90 training slots (maybe less, I can't remember but they are long since used up) by buying planes from Airbus. We have been operating our own training department for over two years. They are jetBlue employees. We only used Airbus IP's when we were jammed and and short staffed and we have weaned off of them completely. In fact, most of them came to work for us over time. And we bought some of the A320 sims in MIA that we use, cash.

4) The training center we are building in MCO is ours, we are paying for it, not the city of Orlando. We will have I think 4 each of A320 and EMB190 sims there too as well as CPT's, cabin trainers, the lot.

5) They are not, repeat not, RJ's

It's all documented, just take the time to look it up. We are a publicly traded company so all this is disclosed info.


I fail to see what any of that has to do with getting an interview and why it is posted in this section of the forum anyway.

The truth about our CASM is that it will continue to decline slightly for a few more years. It's math you know.

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

Re: Unreal

2) Our maintenance is not free or reduced by Airbus. We have always had our own maintenance department and parts stores from both Airbus and IAE, stores that we paid for, cash.

Im pretty sure everyone knows you are paying for your airplanes but you are the first here to claim that you are not getting a mx deal from Airbus. If you are not getting one you should be, from what I understand its fairly common for a start up airline to get pretty heafty incentives when they buy a bunch of aircraft.

I wasnt trying to flame, just trying to acertain when the mx deal expires. Maybe there is no deal but most other JetBlue people on this board seem to be aware of one.

JetBlue is by far the most rapidly growing and successful startup that the industry has ever seen. If anyone can make it im sure that they can. But to say that they are out of the woods before they have even entered them is a little presumtuous. There are many growing pains that they have not yet experienced. Im sure they will find ways to accomodate them and probably come out smelling like a rose. These next few years should be very interesting with the rapid growth and fleet diversification. Hopefully they will end up writing the "How to" book instead of the "How Not to"

 

[Skank]

How about this:
Why not tell us what these maintenance deals usually entail, since they are, as you claim, fairly common? Furthermore, who has these deals, and who with? What are the exact details of these deals?

As far as I know, there are warrantied items, and other contract specifications which may provide reimbusement for items that fail prematurely. But as to these so-called "maintenance deals," you tell us.

 

[jointops]

320,

Thanks for responding for me on this. We've been moving into the house and I haven't checked in for a while.

 

[jetblue320]

Re: Re: Unreal

Im pretty sure everyone knows you are paying for your airplanes but you are the first here to claim that you are not getting a mx deal from Airbus. If you are not getting one you should be, from what I understand its fairly common for a start up airline to get pretty heafty incentives when they buy a bunch of aircraft.

I wasnt trying to flame, just trying to acertain when the mx deal expires. Maybe there is no deal but most other JetBlue people on this board seem to be aware of one.

JetBlue is by far the most rapidly growing and successful startup that the industry has ever seen. If anyone can make it im sure that they can. But to say that they are out of the woods before they have even entered them is a little presumtuous. There are many growing pains that they have not yet experienced. Im sure they will find ways to accomodate them and probably come out smelling like a rose. These next few years should be very interesting with the rapid growth and fleet diversification. Hopefully they will end up writing the "How to" book instead of the "How Not to"

Like Skank said, what kind of deal? I am sure that we have warranties and such. Only an idiot would buy a new piece of expensive gear without one. And maybe yes, there is some kind of unknown, stealth type secret handshake, but I doubt it. AIrbus is in business for the money, not the relationship. Although they are correlated.

No sweat, I wasn't accusing you or anyone of flaming. And maybe I was a bit defensive. You see, it simply gets old hearing from outsiders that we have cheated and conieved our way to the top. Trust me, we have made it to the top on our own merit and it's all above board.

Thank you for the kind words about the book!.

See ya

 

[Swass]

You guys are pretty dang defensive, aren't you? It seems to me that the Blue guys are always defending their company like it's soooo much better than everyone else's company. You never really see much of the SW guys having to defend their company, we all know that their way of doing things works. They pretty much say how nice it is to work there and how stable it is, etc. You guys spend most of your time getting pissed when someone starts a thread and it goes in this direction.What I'm saying is that since you guys are so new we are just waiting for the other shoe to drop, so to speak. Growth as fast as yours normally doesn't come without a price, somewhere, sometime. Flame away, I'm wearing my welding helmet.

 

[LearAv8r]

ok.................


"5) They are not, repeat not, RJ's"


like the guy from the Ditech commercial,


"RRRRRRIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGGHHHHHHTTTTT!!!!!!"



here is a sample of Ned:

http://www.calendarlive.com/tv/cl-ditech_hi8y34kf,0,3589165.photo?coll=cl-home-more-channels

 

[Dizel8]

Swass,

Not really defensive, but perhaps pretty dang tired of hearing the same story repeated ad naseum. It always goes something like this: Just wait until (insert here), then JBLU will be toast, etc, etc.

Not sure we have any special deals with Airbus, but if we do and they are different than what UAL, NWA gets, then I would call that pretty smart management. I would not be privy to such, but I am sure our lenders are and they are way more savvy than I will ever be, yet, seems to be no problem financing more birds.

As far as JBLU being better, not sure what to say. Its an airline that sticks to basics, good service at a good price, apparently that sits well with our customers. Never was a secret, that we have borrowed pretty heavily from SWA, exactly because it works. We may be flavour of the month, but I for obvious reasons hope not and while I doubt it, in this biz, only time can tell.

Lear Av8r,

No, they are not RJ's. You can say that, until you are blue in the face (pun intended) but reading the specs and seeing the pictures, it is as much an RJ as the B-717 and the F-100. It is not an ERJ-145 or the stretched BRJ, which has about as much headroom as a LR-24, at least it seems like it

 

[Mugs]

I read an article that I believe was in Money magazine about 4 months ago. It had an interview in it with Neelman that asked about the maintenance cost issue and Jetblue. Neelman said in the article that when the cost of aircraft maintenance matures at JB, the studies JB has done indicate that the CASM figure will increase by one cent. This article of course came out before the 100 seat (there, I didn't say RJ) aircraft were ordered. So who knows how that plays into the figures.

 

[jetblue320]

You guys are pretty dang defensive, aren't you? It seems to me that the Blue guys are always defending their company like it's soooo much better than everyone else's company. You never really see much of the SW guys having to defend their company, we all know that their way of doing things works. They pretty much say how nice it is to work there and how stable it is, etc. You guys spend most of your time getting pissed when someone starts a thread and it goes in this direction.What I'm saying is that since you guys are so new we are just waiting for the other shoe to drop, so to speak. Growth as fast as yours normally doesn't come without a price, somewhere, sometime. Flame away, I'm wearing my welding helmet.

Maybe if the posts on this forum weren't so offensive, we wouldn't get defensive. I never said we were soooo much better than everyone else's company. Yes, we have a lot to learn and a long way to go, no doubt.
Maybe the SW guys don't really care if people are mis-informed about their company, but I do. This forum is about a free exchange of information. At least, I thought it was.
Maybe your statement about paying the price of fast growth is true, maybe not. Tell me, what was the price (or more appropriately who paid it) for SW over the past 30+ years?

 

[Eagleflip]

Les, if anybody at JB is "incredibly arrogant" I'd be the first to tell them to "simmah down now..." We're incredibly lucky. Heck, I'm incredibly lucky. That, and a bit of blue culture, adds up to a successful startup.

What you may see on this forum is several JB crewmembers defending a small company poised on the brink of becoming a "major." I too am tired of the same old JetBlue bashing on these forums, from "wait until you guys start paying for your jets" to "JB pilots are causing industry wages to tumble." I suppose I try to quelch these unfounded rumors as best I can, but it probably comes off as defensive.

I'm interested in what you heard in a crew van that led you to believe our pilots are arrogant, though. Can you give us the low down?

 

[FL717]

The jetBlue people need to tone down somewhat. The SWA pilots seem to be more level headed with their success, but boy those folks at jetBlue (and Airtran also) seem to be incredibly arrogant... on these forums.. and in the crew vans. They are quickly becoming what they "claim" the legacy carrier crews behave like.

They are quickly getting an "attitude' for no readily apparent reason. You all are profitable... ya hoo. But it takes "years" of a profitable business to "make it". Even then there's no reason for the crowing.

Les

I have been with AirTran long enough, and have overnighted everywhere numerous times to be reasonably sure you don't regularly ride the crew vans with AirTran crews. We are in the vans 95% of the time with other AirTran crews or by ourselves. We do share with Jetblue, and Eagle occasionally, but everyone is very friendly.

I need more info on your statement... otherwise I'm a little sceptical.

You don't have a dog in this fight by chance do you? Your post seems questionable.

 

[Eagleflip]

I think the new "goatees" that the jetBlue pilots are now suddenly sporting is also indicative of this "attitude".

BWHA-HAHAHAHAHA! You're basing your assumption of arrogance on this? YGBSM!

It isn't arrogance...it's an ugly fashion trend.

I'm just lucky you don't base my attitude on my looks...or my height, as I am currently dawg ugly and "vertically challenged."

 

[jetblue320]

I do own dogs.. but I don't fight them.

I have rode in vans with crews from many airlines over the years. I make judgements based on what I see. I also make judgements based on what I read that other crews write here and other places. Read "some" of the posts that your Airtran buddies write and tell me thats normal adult social behavior.

I think my statement about the arrogance is very valid. I think the new "goatees" that the jetBlue pilots are now suddenly sporting is also indicative of this "attitude".

It is a pshychological thing that only outsiders can see.. and believe me.... we all can see it. Many people just don't want to see it.

Les

You tap dance real well Les (and probably wail on a guitar) but you never answered the man's question about your stake in this thread. Here's another one: what does facial hair have to do with attitude? I don't wear a goatee myself nor think beards are appropriate on pilot's (other than boat pilots that is) but that is not what I would consider indicative of attitude. But that is my opinion. We also don't wear hats like "traditional" pilots do. I guess that is out of line as well and shows our attitudes.

I bet you watched Catch Me If You Can recently and wish that scene about the kid asking for an airline pilots signature was you, don't you?

See ya

 

[V2+10]

I think the new "goatees" that the jetBlue pilots are now suddenly sporting is also indicative of this "attitude".

Les

Before you pass judgment...you need to be able to grow one.

V2

 

[LearAv8r]

"No, they are not RJ's. You can say that, until you are blue in the face (pun intended) but reading the specs and seeing the pictures, it is as much an RJ as the B-717 and the F-100. It is not an ERJ-145 or the stretched BRJ, which has about as much headroom as a LR-24, at least it seems like it"


Well,

Dude, I don't care what you think but to me that thing is an RJ and most people see it as one...........Come to think of it I don't know of the last time Boeing or Fokker made an RJ.


Now Embraer on the other hand, when was the last time they didn't make an RJ? (excluding of course turboprops etc...)


You guys have been drinking too much Blue juice.......


I am only kidding about the juice comment......

FLAME AWAY!!!!!

 

[Dizel8]

Les Paul,

Sorry about the goatees, they are ugly, but hey its a trend these days, soon it will be in the past.

As far as JBLU people being arrogant, I am sorry if you have perceived this, since all the people I know here are quite humble and know that we are darn lucky. If, and that is a big if, they indeed acted arrogant, then you have been unlucky enough to see the 2%. You know, the ones all airlines have, but wish they hadn't.

LearAv8r,

Well, I guess you will have to consider the F-100 an RJ if you call the EMB-190 an RJ. Yes, Embraer is known for making RJ's, but have now branched into making larger airplanes, sort of how the japanese were making small boxy cars, but look at them now. That Lexus sure looks nice. I think you will be very pleasantly surprised by the 190.

 

[AlbieF15]

A real airline pilot won't even have a mustache or other facial hair, as it is likely to chafe against his oxygen mask when he's flying his fighter on weekends or off days in the Air National Guard.

Flipper...Kato is AK bound doing the sim thing up there. Thought you'd want to know if he hadn't called you yet...

 

[wil]

Professional Pilot Magazine, in their A/C evaluation last year, classified the Fokker 100 as a Regional Jet.

 

[JayDub]

The jetBlue people need to tone down somewhat. The SWA pilots seem to be more level headed with their success, but boy those folks at jetBlue (and Airtran also) seem to be incredibly arrogant... on these forums.. and in the crew vans. They are quickly becoming what they "claim" the legacy carrier crews behave like.

They are quickly getting an "attitude' for no readily apparent reason. You all are profitable... ya hoo. But it takes "years" of a profitable business to "make it". Even then there's no reason for the crowing.

Les

Les Paul,

Back in the day, SWA was "ruining aviation", "lowering the bar", “a bunch of nere-do-wells that haven't proven anything yet", etc. ad nauseum. Now on this forum (and else where) it seems the favorite whipping post seems to be JetBlue. Personally, I really think it's a matter of perspective. SWA is out of the frying pan and JetBlue is taking their turn under the microscope. So be it.

So a goatee makes you unprofessional, eh? I like to loosen my tie and unbutton my shirt after the cockpit door closes. Does this make me a threat to you "serious professionals"? Give me a break! Your passengers probably never see your face (as Captain) until they are disembarking.

So JetBlue crews are gloating on a crew van, eh? You must not work for Delta. Remember, their contract didn't allow them to share "their" van with anyone else. Even when that van (with another crew already on it) stayed an extra 15 minutes to accommodate them.

The Embraer pay rates are based on the A-320 pay rates (adjusted for ASMs). I really don't care what you call it; so long as the salary is in-line with the 'Bus rates. The whole beef from the RJDC (so it seems to me), was this very issue. Lower pay rates, benefits, etc., just because someone in management chooses to call it an RJ. JetBlue has clearly stated that will not be the case at their airline.

In summary, I think you are looking at this from a rather narrow perspective. I understand people are waiting "for the other shoe to drop". Personally it just seems like some people, rather, are circling; waiting to feast on our carcass. And yes, that is annoying to me. So sue me.

Sorry for the rant guys... maybe you caught me in a "mood".


Respectfully,

JayDub

 

[Daedalus]

LP quote:

"I remember when SWA were the new kids on the block. their pilots were very reserved, and did not seem to be as boisterous as some of the jetBlue and AirTran crews today."

C'mon! When SWA was the "new kid on the block" there was no such thing as the internet, let alone message boards or flightinfo.

I submit that if we all had to fully reveal ourselves on these boards there would be much less mudslinging, and far more decorum and respect. But I guess it would also mean less unvarnished opinions, along with the occassional flame baiter.

Your description of jetBlue pilots as arrogant is just blatantly wrong, and reeks of some hidden agenda or insecurity on your part. There are no genetic differences between pilots at SWA, AirTran, jetBlue, or any other air carrier which make them singularly unique from one another. We are all humans; humans which possess the same emotional strengths and weaknesses; character traits, and hopes and fears.

We should all be embracing what few goods things this industry is creating for our profession, and be more willing as "professional" pilots to give each other the benefit of the doubt.

We should also be glad that there are companies like jetBlue, AirTran, SWA who are actively hiring pilots and providing gainful employment for an industry that is the midst of its worst financial depression ever. There are 10's of thousands of good people who have had their lives utterly destroyed as their airlines have laid them off over the last two years.....not to mention those who literally gave up their lives on 9/11.

It's too bad we are quick to forget these basic facts, and thus lose the big picture while tossing jabs at each other over really insignificant things such as this.

Les, if you are still actively employed, then be grateful for that, and don't be so quick to judge the faults of others. I'm sure you still have plenty of your own that need perfecting.

 

[JayDub]

I remember when SWA were the new kids on the block. their pilots were very reserved, and did not seem to be as boisterous as some of the jetBlue and AirTran crews today. Read the SWA threads and you see a little more "humility' for lack of a better word.

The goatee comments by me have nothing to do with a persons professionalism, but has everything to do with attitude. There is a difference.

I never wish anyone misfortune or demise. I only point out that you have to keep it all in perspective.


Les

Les,

It looks like you've already made your mind up. Any further discussion would obviously be frivolous. Best wishes to you.


Respectfully,


JayDub