Low time pilot training AvCAreer.TV

[flydog]

Focus your points are really irrelevant

Just because something is legal does not make it morally sound and ethical

If it werent for ALPA the right seat of every airliner in this country might be filled with PFTers with 250 hrs. The airlines dont care. Theyre out to save a buck. The PFTers dont care. They just love flying.

The people who care are the passengers and the experienced professional pilots that are put out of work. This is were immoral and unethical comes in. Kind of like a lawyer who is an ambulance chaser or a magazine editor that emebelishes a story for advertising revenue.

What if you hired a guy to install floor tile in your home and instead of using cement he used Elmer's Glue. Is it legal? Yes. Is it ethical. NO

If Gulfstream were to post a sign at the gate stating "Your flight cew today is made up of people who paid for the right to work here and were not selected by screeeing or interviewing the BEST QUALIFIED AND EXPERIENCED applicants. In most cases they meet only the bare minimum requirements per the FARs" How many people would get on that airplane?

To me there is little difference between a guy who buys a job at Gulfstream and a Scab. Both hurt the professional pilot. If you cant see this you need to go work at Home Depot not at an airline. The day some guy pays $10,000 for your job because he loves working with lumber maybe youll get the picture.

 

[Focus]

Flydog, That is exactly why Unions exist in our country. Believe me, Ive got the picture. Many PFT pilots got jobs ahead of me years ago. I didn't sit around complaining. I just worked hard and structured my business plan differently in order to flank them. If your the quaterback in a football game are you going to keep complaining to the ref. about some Defensive Guard who is throwing dirt in the eyes of your lineman or are you going to take him out with your Center or Tackle, while your running a play off the other side.

All Im trying to say, is the rules of the game and the game itself are not always fair. Work Hard, Think Smart, Play Right. If the other guy is beating you then work a new strategy. The whining does nothing for you and obviously does not change the outcome. The only way I could possibly ever see PFT no longer in existence is with Unions. Then again, there have been Union Shops that had PFT. If your faceing this battle in your current situation then go back to the drawing board. Believe me there are ways to get around it if you need to.

By the way, any idea how much their paying at Home Depo?
Stop The Whining Already!!!!!!!!Play Ball & Let the Best Team Win.

 

[Ty Webb]

None of your sporting analogies really address the issue.

The issue is that new entrants to our field are often sold the idea that they can somehow buy their way into a position that they are not competitively qualified for. Many times these pilots are not yet "in" the industry, and derive much of their information from magazines and the ads and articles therein.

These boards are an excellent place to put forth the message that buying a job or agreeing to pay the employer for FAA-mandated training has ethical and long-term implications for one's career.

I was on these boards in the mid-to-late Nineties, when PFT was a BIG issue,and I guarantee you that it did make a difference towards ending PFT. PFT ended at Comair, COEX, ASA, ACA when pilots chose to go to other carriers who did not require PFT.

That decision was not just financial- most of us also take into consideration whether something is "right" or not- I know I did. I could have PFT'ed in 1990 at ASA- I decided not to, and I have never regretted it.


That is why I and others spend a few minutes here and there to remind others- because without the counterbalance, all the new guys can see are the "Come, be a PILOT" crap that Publisher and his ilk are putting out there.

Which brings us back to where we started this string- and, so- this is where I get off.

Good luck to all

 

[Focus]

I have to disagree with why PFT stopped in the late 90's. If you recall we were getting into a pilot shortage at that time. It was purely economics. The airlines were not able to fill the seats with enough semi-qualified guys willing to pay who were capable of doing the job. They had no choice but to open the doors to more qualified individuals capable of getting through the training. If it really was for the true holdouts then we would not be seeing the same cycle repeating itself. Its all economics.. $$$$$$, Supply and Demand. I wonder what will happen to this industry when we start using Drones???

Be prepared, as it will happen. Their are some brilliant engineers at Boeing and other airlines that are already working on the concept. Heck, were already getting rid of the Flt. Engineers. Technology will not stand still. Will we whine about the Computer Engineers acting as PIC from a ground station why the crewmembers are merely along for the ride in case something goes wrong in the DataBases.??? Just a thought......

Anyhow, thats a totally different topic. I do find the possibilites extremely interesting. Nobody needs to win or loose in this debate but respecting one anothers opinion without bashing eachother creates a far better atmosphere. -Focus

 

[Ty Webb]

Focus-

The market forces had to change to enable the demise of PFT, but without pilots like us speaking out on the subject, PFT nearly became the "norm". You would be surprised how many new pilots on these boards thought that most, if not all, regionals required PFT. Many, many pilots wrote in to say that after reading up on the subject, had decided against a PFT carrier in favor of a non-PFT one.

When pilots and MEC members read how others in the industry view the practice on these boards, it becomes more obvious that it is an issue to be addressed inside and/or outside of contract negotiations. It was a black-eye on the companies that practiced it, and those of us who were around then need to be vigilant that it doesn't crop up again.

I get especially bent when I see people write that PFT was "necessary" for some companies- less than half of the regionals were ever PFT, and some of the biggest and most successful ones were never PFT, period.

On other matters. I'm not worried about drones during my career. It would take far too long to convince the public that their level of safety would justify it, and anyone with a personal computer has seen first-hand that computers need humans when they start doing wacky stuff. Just ask any Airbus pilot!

I don't think the F/A's would go for it either, but I am sure we will see huge changes in our lifetime, so maybe I will be wrong- won't be the first time.


Signed,

a Yoke and Throttle Operator from sector 7-G

 

[flydog]

Focus

You really have a lot to learn about what an airline Captain does

If you think "drones" will replace an airliner with a human crew you dont know the first thing about the job

Flying a passenger jet isnt just pushing buttons. We arent there to program the GPS and talk on the radio.

Our job is to make DECISIONS !!!! Being an airline captain requires good judgement and decision making ability. You can teach a monkey to fly a jet

No computer will ever take the place of the human decision making process. The cockpits will become more automated but it still takes a person to run the system and make the calls.

When both engine flame out and complete electrical power is lost I would rather have a pilot over Microsoft in the cockpit any day of the week.

 

[Focus]

Open Your Eyes Flydog!!

Flydog, or should we call you Basher or Flamebait? State your opinion on a subject and be done. If you need reference material or perhaps would like to investigate this subject more a good starting point on Drones would be Boeing, NASA, or the nearest THINK TANK. Check out what were already doing with FANS (Future Air Navigation Systems). Automation in the cockpit is already here. Satellite Communication Systems are improving by the day. We have along way to go but is it feasible? I say yes, thats my humble opinion. Will it hurt us as pilots? I haven't reached a final decision on that as I always believe there is a way to circumnavigate situations that would otherwise be detrimental to your well being. I call this Creativity and Flexibility when presented with obstacles. Good Luck w/ your own decisions.

By the way, I cant remember the guys name but he was the CEO of DEC (Digital Equip. Corp). I could be wrong on the company also so dont quote me. Lets just say that this guy told everyone that there would never be a need for home computers, and that his company should not focus R&D Funds in this area. Needless to say this guy lost his job which paid very well. Where is he now? I have no idea. Heck, I cant even remember his name but I can remember names like Steve Jobs, Michael Dell, Bill Gates and PARC (Palo Alto Research Center).

Perhaps you get my point. FLY SAFE

 

[flydog]

Focus you can call me sir.

I am having a hard time deciphering the rest of your babble which seems to have nothing to do with flying. Maybe Bill Gates has a forum that would be more your speed

The FAA still hasnt figured out a way to come up with a worthwile GPS approach to replace the ancient but reliable ILS. Being that my mandatory retirement will be in roughly 29 years I doubt I will live to see the day of your robotic airliners.

Good luck with your whale flying job. Hope its not PFT

 

[Focus]

Flydog Dude!!!

Flydog Dude!!!!! Thats what I will call you. Lighten up. You were bashing me and I was only stating my opinions. If you go back and read my previous msg.'s I think you will find that I came up the ole fashioned way. FREIGHTDOG. You bet your A** I paid for it with the amount of money we all made on that career path. By the way, if you want people to call you sir you have to earn it. LOL, Bashing people is not the way to do it.

You may be correct that we will not see DRONES in our career but after a few more years under your belt I think you might be less inclined to say that certain things will never happen. This is the ever changing world of AVIATION.

I was only trying to get everone to stop whining... WAWAWA I get sick of it. -Surely you can understand that. And Im not calling you Shirley...SEE Ya -SIR FOCUS- i kinda like that...