Low pilot pay called 'dirty little secret'

[Frequency]

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2009/05/15/am.carroll.pilot.pay.cnn

 

[turbodriver]

Like this will change anything. Soon as you tell the pax that the cost of their ticket will go up to pay for our raises, the room will go very quiet....

And that RAA pres. guy is a *ucking tool. he knows damm well that pay is directly related to performance and the amount of experience you get, but he's in management's pocket so what'd you expect.

You get what you pay for every time. Till the public realizes this, people will keep dying at the hands of 500 wonder hour pilots.

 

[sktwstdfrk]

"The public has to get involved as well."

Alert me when that happens.

 

[Capt. Caucasian]

We've only been picketing with signs that say, "I make less than $21,000 a year" for about fifteen years. I also seem to remember quite a few full page ads in the USA Today that said about the same thing. Now they notice? Whatever.

 

[BrickTop]

Until you prove there is a relation to safety and pay nothing will change. And, nothing will change unless congress passes a pilot wage mandate just like a general minimum wage.

 

[RedDogC130]

I don't buy it there are plenty of airlines that offer low prices and pay the pilot a good wage. JB, AT, Frontier...and SWA. It seems to be an issue with the airline that has the regionals flying for them that cannot get the prices low enough with their own people flying it at their wage level.

 

[catIIIc]

I don't buy it there are plenty of airlines that offer low prices and pay the pilot a good wage. JB, AT, Frontier...and SWA. It seems to be an issue with the airline that has the regionals flying for them that cannot get the prices low enough with their own people flying it at their wage level.

Exactly, the only way to make regionals more attractive then mainline is to pay their people low wages. As the regional prices go up, it becomes more unattractive to outsource, especially on a 50 seat airplane.

 

[RedDogC130]

Well there are airlines out there that off low cost seats and pay their pilots well..(they could do better, but still well) It seems that the airlines contracting with the regional are the ones to blame since they cannot make money off the routes with their own pilots flying the equipment they have to go to the lowest bidder....so hopefully there is change out of this and it is saying goodbye to regioanls and leave the flying to the mainline aircraft.

 

[milky]

We've only been picketing with signs that say, "I make less than $21,000 a year" for about fifteen years. I also seem to remember quite a few full page ads in the USA Today that said about the same thing. Now they notice? Whatever.

If people have been accepting those jobs for 15 years, why would anybody offer more money? Obviously the price for the labor is set at an appropriate level to attract the level of talent the company desires.

If $21,000 per year is too little, DO NOT TAKE THE JOB. That is how the wages increase.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

I don't buy it there are plenty of airlines that offer low prices and pay the pilot a good wage. JB, AT, Frontier...and SWA. It seems to be an issue with the airline that has the regionals flying for them that cannot get the prices low enough with their own people flying it at their wage level.

What is the pay scale at Volaris ?

Seems "Air Travel Partners" need to be as much of a target as regionals and code share agreements, as the airlines seem to be using them to do their flying as well.

"
Volaris: Know Before You Go

We're thrilled to introduce Volaris as our newest air travel Partner. Volaris is Mexico's largest low-cost airline offering scheduled service to more than 20 cities throughout Mexico and select cities in the United States such as Los Angeles and Oakland. Volaris was founded in 2006 operates a modern fleet of Airbus 319 and A320 aircraft. We're excited about the many travel options that Volaris provides Southwest Airlines' Customers.


Volaris Policies

Southwest Airlines and Volaris currently do not have a codeshare or interline agreement. All tickets issued for Volaris flights are issued by Volaris, and Volaris's operating and Customer acceptance policies, procedures, and fees apply. Please ensure that you have carefully reviewed and fully understand Volaris's policies prior to booking travel.
Click the following links to review Volaris's Contract of Carriage and Volaris Baggage Policies. To provide feedback regarding your experience on a Volaris-operated flight, please contact Volaris at 1-866-988-3527 if you are in the United States or 01-800-122-8000 if you are in Mexico."

 

[ExAF]

Apples and Oranges

I don't buy it there are plenty of airlines that offer low prices and pay the pilot a good wage. JB, AT, Frontier...and SWA. It seems to be an issue with the airline that has the regionals flying for them that cannot get the prices low enough with their own people flying it at their wage level.

That's because they (JB, AT, Frontier...and SWA) cherry pick larger markets and don't service the little towns that are only served by regionals and smaller aircraft. The regionals are providing feed to everyone though (including JB, AT, Frontier...and SWA) from those smaller markets even though not everyone is paying for the feed. Apples and oranges.

 

[RedDogC130]

That's because they (JB, AT, Frontier...and SWA) cherry pick larger markets and don't service the little towns that are only served by regionals and smaller aircraft. The regionals are providing feed to everyone though (including JB, AT, Frontier...and SWA) from those smaller markets even though not everyone is paying for the feed. Apples and oranges.

Well last time I checked Buffalo is not a small town. Name a city that an RJ does not go into and is only mainline (from a Legacy) bet you can't do it.

 

[brownie]

I spoke to airfrance regional carrier's pilot and they said the entry level rj fo starts at 40000 euro per yr which roughly 53000$. I know they have higher taxes but it's all the same if u live and based in jfk or lax. The tax and the expenses off set each other but again they value thier employees and pilots and here in the good ole us of a we're just a tool to opreate the machine.uke:

 

[Flying the Line]

well last time i checked buffalo is not a small town. Name a city that an rj does not go into and is only mainline (from a legacy) bet you can't do it.

anc ?

 

[Dornier 335]

I spoke to airfrance regional carrier's pilot and they said the entry level rj fo starts at 40000 euro per yr which roughly 53000$. I know they have higher taxes but it's all the same if u live and based in jfk or lax. The tax and the expenses off set each other but again they value thier employees and pilots and here in the good ole us of a we're just a tool to opreate the machine.uke:

I could be mistaken, but taxes for pilots are somewhat low in France. At least compared with other professions in the country. I think they fall into the same tax level as artists. And yes, pilots are much higher regarded in the EU than in the US. What a shame!

 

[brownie]

Your statements are spot on.

 

[sellis988]

If the airlines would offer a livable wage I would probably go. But 16000-24000 give me a break. Who could live on that? Not anyone that isnt living with mom and dad!

 

[Dornier 335]

Wasn't it Colgan that didn't allow crewmembers to pick up food stamps in uniform? Some regional had it written in their GOM ...

 

[Lear70]

Wasn't it Colgan that didn't allow crewmembers to pick up food stamps in uniform? Some regional had it written in their GOM ...

It would be great for the media to get ahold of that little gem right about now...

 

[WayBack]

Low Pay....who can we thank?
-Well, let's start with management. Thank you!
-Then we can go to the mainline carriers who had the chance to put these RJ's on the property....but they were too cool to fly small airplanes. So management used it to their advantage, we're back to thanking management.
-Then we can thank ALPA. For "equally" representing the regionals and majors. For allowing regionals undercut each other on the same equipment.
Look at the Comair guys. They're being dismantled, while all the other DCI carriers are picking up their flying....which are all ALPA carriers.
Glad ALPA would stick up for the pilot group that actually had the balls to stand up for what they believed in.

A pay increase wouldn't even be noticable to the passengers on their tickets, it wouldn't even be $1 per ticket.

 

[AA717driver]

RJ's are high CASM aircraft. The only way to make them work (in order to serve those oh-so-valuable small markets) is to pay the employees slave wages.

Either re-expand the EAS program or people in BFE are going to have to drive to Lubbock to catch a big airplane.

I was screaming and jumping up and down because the unions didn't capitalize on Sully's comments before Congress. NOW, there's an even wider opening.

Anyone?

TC

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

RJ's are high CASM aircraft. The only way to make them work (in order to serve those oh-so-valuable small markets) is to pay the employees slave wages.

Either re-expand the EAS program or people in BFE are going to have to drive to Lubbock to catch a big airplane.

I was screaming and jumping up and down because the unions didn't capitalize on Sully's comments before Congress. NOW, there's an even wider opening.

Anyone?

TC

Why do you and others wait and hope for Sully's, the Colgan accident and unions to enhance our careers?

 

[jonjuan]

Maybe to help put it into perspective with the politicians, the theme of "The Flight Attendant in the back made MORE than the co-pilot up front on the Colgan flight" would help.
Senator Smith: "So please help me understand this Mr. Kelner, you pay many of your First Officers less than your Flight Attendants?
LK: "Yethhh, that's correct." "Well, don't look at me.....their union negothiated their pay and work rulthh. The Board negotiated mine."

 

[brownie]

Wasn't it Colgan that didn't allow crewmembers to pick up food stamps in uniform? Some regional had it written in their GOM ...

That was american eagle and they actually tried to fire couple of FO's when they were seen standing in line to recieve food stamps.:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[Penguin46]

"pay" to pay attention

Pay does have an effect on attitude and ultimately some aspect of performance. If you cut Joe managers pay to bone; he probably wouldn't care as much either. Low payed F/O may be the most distracted of all; for understandable reasons.

 

[Smarta$$]

If people have been accepting those jobs for 15 years, why would anybody offer more money? Obviously the price for the labor is set at an appropriate level to attract the level of talent the company desires.

If $21,000 per year is too little, DO NOT TAKE THE JOB. That is how the wages increase.

Not true D-bag. Two summers ago, Pinnacle was cancelling flights in huge numbers, paying millions of dollars in performance fines to NW because they could not get enough pilots to staff the company. It was a time when pilots were in demand and our contract was 3 years expired. Pilots were choosing to go to better paying airlines.

It was the PERFECT STORM for a supply and demand pay increase for Pinnacle pilots. The money paid in fines alone was enough to close the gap at the negotiating table for our new contract. In the end, the company paid the fines, lost the revenue for the CX block hours and refused to raise the pay hugh enough to attract the needed pilots.

Do you actually have anything intelligent to say?

 

[Smarta$$]

Wasn't it Colgan that didn't allow crewmembers to pick up food stamps in uniform? Some regional had it written in their GOM ...

I have had several of my FO's tell me that instructors and management had come into their initial ground school at Pinnacle and told them not to wear their uniform to the food stamp or wellfare office. This has come from several people with various seniority. Pretty disgusting.

 

[jonjuan]

Pay does have an effect on attitude and ultimately some aspect of performance. If you cut Joe managers pay to bone; he probably wouldn't care as much either. Low payed F/O may be the most distracted of all; for understandable reasons.

Exactly-such as debating whether or not to take the first available upgrade despite reservations about lack of icing experience versus staying in the right seat another year to gain said experience. It sounded like the Colgan FO would stay in the right seat. How many others share the same fear, but simply take the upgrade simply for economic reasons (not to mention being told over and over that delaying upgrade just one class may mean the difference in hundreds of seniority numbers at Alaska, Delta, WN, et al)?

 

[Smarta$$]

RJ's are high CASM aircraft. The only way to make them work (in order to serve those oh-so-valuable small markets) is to pay the employees slave wages.

Either re-expand the EAS program or people in BFE are going to have to drive to Lubbock to catch a big airplane.

I was screaming and jumping up and down because the unions didn't capitalize on Sully's comments before Congress. NOW, there's an even wider opening.

Anyone?

TC

If you figure a conservative load of 30 pax on my 50 seat jet with a 1 hour average flight, you could charge 6 dollars per pax and double the rate of pay for both pilots. 30x6=180 Thats 90 dollars per leg (round trip ticket).

The sad thing is, the six dollars would never make it to us anyway.

 

[justgrieveit]

I think the only fix is for a mandate that will do away with outsourcing and force the airlines to hire pilots to fly the aircraft that they own or lease, including the turboprops and RJ's. This will spell the end of the regional carriers and force the airlines into the ab initio flight training business. Of course this will increase the cost of doing business across the board but if the rules are the same for every airline than the ticket prices can be raised to cover the cost of training. The airlines could then tailor a training program that will weed out the weaker candidates, a la a military flight training program. Not that this will ever happen but in a perfect world...