Loss of US Jobs Effecting Airline Biz?

[aggiepilot87]

NAFTA is a capitalistic effort, albeit a flawed one. Flawed in that it offers unfair advantage to 3rd world mexico over the US by not equalizing the respective economic footing on which we're based. In other words, we abide by much more stringent regulations (enviro, health, safety, etc) than do the mexicans, but their goods are given near equal treatment in our country. We, through Kyoto, NAFTA, etc are *placing ourselves* in a very unfair competitive situation, period.

BTW - anyone realize that Gore had exceptions written into NAFTA exempting Tenessee whiskey from the agreement! I'm getting off the path...

The US can still defeat any country technologically/economically, if playing on an equal field. Technology, productivity, innovation - we've still got it. Look at any field of technology - the US still is on the top if not near. One example - look at gasoline prices - $1.29/gal. Corrected for inflation, they've been dropping for yeras. US petroleum extraction, transport and refining technology is the reason. But the other countries are much closer than they were 10-20 years ago.

The enemy is US! read, government regulation. I'm not saying it's grossly overdone, but in the last 10-15 years or so, it has become exceedingly burdensome. When manufacturing companies have to move their facilities overseas to increase/maintain profitability - something's wrong *here*. When politicians strike deals with countries having a far lower standard of living than the US without equalizing for this difference, you and I will loose.

Travel budgets in my industry have been cut to the bone, if not eliminated. I haven't flown commercially for work in almost 2 years. 5-10 years ago, I travelled 1-2 times/month. Back then, we bought full-fare tickets. You try that in today's business environment more than once and you may get fired for poor planning.

It's about change - accept it or get run over. The world economy is mostly to blame - good and bad. Selfish, nearsighted trade agreements and lack of tariffs on goods from undeveloped countries also aggrivate the situation. Yes - I'm an Attilla the Hun conservative, but I believe tarrifs are the answer to address the pollution spewing, child labor abusing, manufacturing countries (like Mexico and China primarily) unfairly competing with the 1st world countries.

The upside is that we are able to enjoy affordable manufactured items - $69 VCR's, $299 camcorders, $4.99 shirts, $21.99 tennis shoes.

See it how you want - the glass half full or half empty. It's the result of the global economy. And we'll all eventually be living at the same standard, if China doesn't take over the world first. They will be the next super economy/power within 20 years.

BTW - passenger flight service is a service, not a manufactured good.

happy flying

 

[ch47fe]

Don't be so huffy....

Enigma,
I am not saying America ahould have any specific business model. I'm simply stating where I think its going.

I still beleive flying is a service not a product.
Pilots provide a service that cannot be put into your pocket.

You are taking my statements as if I am saying pilots don't produce anything, not so they are the core of aviation. If management could farm out the jobs to China or a machine they would, FACT.

We are a country that survives and the best country in the world, non doubt.

The government can't protect industry from everything either. We must be forced to adapt and we are everyday.

I am in Germany now and it just confirms to me the US is the best place in the worls to live. I can't even find a laundry mat here. Possible international business opp?

I'm not advocating any business model to eliminate a future job I want either, management will do what it has to for profit and survival whether you agree with it or not.

You did encourage me to stay in IT. Don't back out of your snippy remark, it's in print. Go back and read it. That's okay there will be plenty of other persons who I will deal with on my new path into aviation who don't welcome me. It will be a long road but I will survive.

I hope you enjoy your flying job today. I'm on the way!!!
--Chris

 

[enigma]

BTW - passenger flight service is a service, not a manufactured good.

happy flying

Great post.

About terminology. We can call our industry service, or we can call it a product. ( I didn't call it a manufactured good). The terminology doesn't matter. My point was that the service/product/good couldn't be saved from one day to the next. When the seat mile is flown, it's gone for good; regardless of whether it was occupied or empty.

regards,
8N

 

[enigma]

Don't be so huffy....

Enigma,
I am not saying America ahould have any specific business model. I'm simply stating where I think its going.

I still beleive flying is a service not a product.
Pilots provide a service that cannot be put into your pocket.

You are taking my statements as if I am saying pilots don't produce anything, not so they are the core of aviation. If management could farm out the jobs to China or a machine they would, FACT.

We are a country that survives and the best country in the world, non doubt.

The government can't protect industry from everything either. We must be forced to adapt and we are everyday.

I am in Germany now and it just confirms to me the US is the best place in the worls to live. I can't even find a laundry mat here. Possible international business opp?

I'm not advocating any business model to eliminate a future job I want either, management will do what it has to for profit and survival whether you agree with it or not.

You did encourage me to stay in IT. Don't back out of your snippy remark, it's in print. Go back and read it. That's okay there will be plenty of other persons who I will deal with on my new path into aviation who don't welcome me. It will be a long road but I will survive.

I hope you enjoy your flying job today. I'm on the way!!!
--Chris

First, I may have written a snippy remark, but I didn't discourage you from entering the field. Here it is again. "Using the business model that you see as the new American standard, you'd better stay in IT, because Americans will only "manage production, marketing and distribution". Think about it. " Take that as a challenge if you like, but not discouragement.

Second, if you really want to be in this industry, you'd better grow some thicker skin. If your reaction to a post of mine, that was a little "snippy" but was otherwise intended to debate an issue, has you this defensive then this business will eat you up. Nothing personal friend. AND, I appologize for the snippyness. Sorry.

Third, What does this mean? " I hope you enjoy your flying job today. I'm on the way!!!

Fourth, We're obviously debating from different perspectives on the issue. Your last post indicates that you are speaking to the work performed by pilots. I have specifically stated that I am talking about seat miles, i.e., the product that the pilots services produce. I don't disagree with you that piloting is a service. But we pilots work for airlines that produce a product, and that product is a seat mile. Which brings us to the crux of the matter; does the American economy excell at managment, or at production. If we only excell at management, then we will eventually have our American companies managing the production of others. When that occurs, American citizen pilots will become as rare as American citizen cruise ship Captains.

It's too late to think, Later.
8N

 

[ch47fe]

What it means....

Sorry for being deceptive, with my comment.

I posted "I hope you enjoy your flying job today"

That means, When you go to work today and fly the plane, have fun. Enjoy your office in the sky. I am implying that I think your job is fun/interesting and I would like to fly too for a living soon.

"I'm on the way!!", means I am heading into the aviation world by starting some full time training.

The Comment about getting thicker skin, please. Getting dogged by a round brown 24-7 has thickened my skin enough to handle this industry. Uncle Sugar has properly equipped this troop for some standard rate BS, and attitude. A round brown is a Drill Sergeant if you didn't know. Faith in God will carry me the rest of the way.

I just wanted you to acknowledge your comment not apologize for being a 'meanie'. You know you high time guys are supposed to be nice to the newbies. Just kidding.

Maybe I will fly with you one day and be able to have a better conversation in person.

It's been interesting.

Later.

 

[enigma]

Re: What it means....

It's been interesting.

Later.

Same here. The appology was sincere. I gave it not because you asked for it, but when I read my words again I realized that I should have worded them differently. I love to discuss and challenge. I try and make people face the logical conclusion of their positions. It's a fine line debating and just arguing. It is never my intent to prove somone wrong or to get personal. However, being a long way from perfect, I occasionally fall short of that standard.

regards,
8N

 

[CatYaaak]

Those of us paid to fly help to provide a service, not a product. Business travelers who require air transport ARE still getting this service, but more and more are choosing more efficient means than the airlines, namely through the use of their own corporate aircraft or psuedo-ownership fractional companies, as well as charter. The aircraft manufacturers of jet aircraft haven't seen a downturn in over 10 years now and NBAA membership continues to rise in record numbers.

Why? Because it's easy to forsake airline travel when the value of an emplyee's TIME is so high, especially if multiplied by a group going on a trip. Because of airline logistics not of their own making, and the hub-and-spoke system that is, airlines waste more time getting people from Point A to Point B than any other form of air transport. I'm talking about the time the user realizes; what it takes from the front door at home or company at the beginning of the trip until they return, and the stress involved that relates directly to traveling. Consider the differences between using private or charter as opposed to the airlines from the service-user's perspective on a typical business trip. Consider what peoples' time is worth, just in terms of salary alone, and a group of 4 traveling from NYC to say, Boise ID for an early meeting thats supposed to run all day.

The Corporate/charter flight is direct-to-destination EVERY TIME, no connections, and use the closest suitable airport to the exact address of where the users want to go, while airlines just get you in the general vicinity. Airlines use a few hundred airports compared to THOUSANDS available to corporate jet aircraft.

Using corporate aircraft, "schedule" is whatever the users say it is EVERY TIME, as opposed to tailoring their travel to fit whatever airline marketers say it should be. With this in mind on our hypothetical flight, your group takes the airlines and mine will take the company's Challenger. Let's assume we leave our houses at whatever time it takes for you to drive to LGA and me to HPN. We park our cars at the exact same time......

By the time I've walked into the FBO from my car, you are still waiting for the shuttle bus to the terminal. The aircraft I'm taking is sitting 50 yards away and the pilots are waiting. Yours is miles away and your crew isn't there yet. I don't stand in any lines whatsoever and everyone working there smiles (you know your end of the story re; that)

By the time I am sitting in the aircraft (10-15 minues after parking my car...for free) you haven't even gotten to security, perhaps not even to the terminal (and the Lines).

By the time we are cleared for Takeoff, you might be at the gate, standing in line, getting ready to produce your ID yet another time to prove who you are to somebody who doesnt really care. Perhaps you get to be wanded and your bags opened for all to see right there at the gate again. Plan on spending another 20 minutes sitting before even getting into the airplane....they wanted you there early.

We level off at FL370 as you finally take your seat. However you must wait until the scheduled time arrives to depart, since they can't leave too early. Hopefully, the airline you've chosen isn't experiencing labor problems and there is no "slowdown" going on, or you will taxi forever. My pilots work on salary and want to get us there as soon as possible.

Wnen my pilots entered the flight plan into the FMS that morning they entered Boise where it says "destination". Yours entered "Chicago" or "Denver or Minneapolis." or (even worse) "Dallas" or "Atlanta". The airlines deemed that you could not get from NYC to Boise....you must go from one of those places to Boise and adhere to their timetable.

Enroute, my pilots happily tell me we will get to Boise early because winds aloft are lighter than forecast. My group is happy. Enroute (now that you finally are except not to Boise just yet), your pilots worry about those same light headwinds to Denver because they know they won't have a gate available if they arrive too early (besides they know that if they beat the block time consistently the company will reduce the scheduled block and they will get paid less since they are paid by the hour). They slow down to .72 mach as you look at your watch and worry about making your connection.

While enroute our group conducted business without worrying about prying ears. We talked about company matters freely, we faxed, emailed, made phone calls, and spread our papers out anywhere and for however long we wanted. Your group wasn't even able to sit together, let alone chat out loud regarding sensitive company matters, and your people spent the time playing Minesweeper on thier laptops and harrasing the FA's.

Four hours after parking my car, we are descending into Boise. and you arent even to Denver yet. Since we were wheels-up at 0700, we can be sitting in someone's Boise office by 10 AM Mountain Time...you can't. The best you can hope for is getting to that same office sometime in the afternoon, depending on how much time you waste in Denver waiting for your connection. Heaven help you if you have to change airlines.

My group completes the required business that day, because we had all day to do it. It ran a little late, but we didn't feel rushed at all because we know always have option of leaving anytime we want to. The pilots got day rooms and slept because they were up early making sure our travel was seamless, and have planned on returning that night so they will be well-rested. We decide we want to go home that night as planned even though it will be late so we can be in the office the next day. My group knows it can relax on the way home, watch a few DVD's, have some GOOD Scotch, and sleep in comfortable better-than-first-class seats with no annoying announcements, kids crying, etc.

Your group never finished its business that day, and everyone had to stay overnight. You had to plan on spending 2 days traveling for 1 day's worth of business. You all spent the night in hotel rooms...you had no choice because the airlines really wrote your itinerary for you. Even on that second day you got home to NYC very, very late in the Eastern Time zone since when you began business that second day at 9 AM with the Boise people it was almost noon in NYC, and of course you had to travel through Denver again.

So in the end, my group got home a full day earlier on the same trip that began with us both parking our cars at the same time. My group had the option of using time spent airborne doing business as a group, but yours didnt. My group didn't encounter any stress directly related to meeting airline schedules, waste time in lines, or being treated like cattle, yours did. My group relaxed and didn't worry about those hassles going home either, yours did. In fact my group watched DVDs and drank good Scotch and had a great catered-to-order meal waiting for them on the flight home. Your group (the 2nd night) had to decide whether to get a good meal at a restuerant and perhaps not make the flight, or endure whatever the airline threw at them... they took to pretzels and were still in a foul mood with sore backs at work in the NY office on the 3rd day.

Now consider what a couple Sr. Company Officers make as salary, as well as upper managers and top salespeople. What do you think that extra day was worth? We aren't even talking about the dollar amount of any "deal" they may have had in Boise that was at risk, or other intangibles like "beating the competition", although both those things ARE real considerations. But just in terms of salary, if given the option their time is TOO VALUABLE to be spent jumping through the hoops airlines make them jump through.

The scenario I gave is typical....a very real one that happens every single day all over America. Even the most effeciently-run airlines (such as SW) are still woefully inefficient when looked at from the business traveler's perspective, if other options exist. More and more are finding they do. Their responsibility to run THEIR businesses effeciently means NOT having higher-salaried personnel twiddling their thumbs at airports.

If it takes two days to do one day's worth of business, and that happens twice a month, it adds up to 24 days of wasted time per year, which is almost 5 business-WEEKS. Multiply that by an average 4 people per trip, and you have 20 business Weeks wasted. Thats for those 4 people, but most flight departements don't fly just 2 trips per month, they fly a lot more with different groups, and so multiply them into the equation. Now, if you begin to fly international trips to far-flung places, the formula gets ridiculously skewed even further in favor of avoiding the airlines like the plague if you are worried about efficiency, stress, and comfort.

So try as we might as airline people, the business traveler and high-dollar tickets aren't coming back until a sea-change occurs in our industry. United had the right idea with Avolar, if they would have done it right and gotten the right personnel to operate it outside the airline-mentality. They could have given business travelers options and benefits they can't get with EJA etc, and once you get the contracts signed, those airplanes make money even if they don't fly or fly with only one person aboard. United screwed up when they torpedoed it.

The business travelers are still flying, they just arent bound to the airlines anymore and opting out. Can you blame them? We all better get used to driving around the flip-flop crowd.