Loss of US Jobs Effecting Airline Biz?

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

Just wanted to throw this out and see what others think.

With many jobs leaving the country I speculate this has had a negative impact on the airline industry. For instance, business travelers visiting a plant/business in the US no longer go there because those people either lost their job and/or the business was moved somewhere outside the country. Granted, it may be a US based business but the majority of workers are outside the US. As an example, I don't know of any tennis shoe company, much less clothing in general, that still produces in the US. Seems like all the major brands in tennis shoes are made in China.

This part of the post is more of a rant....

I think what stinks is it really being a shrewd business person to move to China or is it a no brainer? Meaning there is no skill involved in managing, the business is basically going to the lowest bidder - all in the name of share holder value. I acknowledge it is their decision on how to run the business but there seems to be a lack of human dignity. I also acknowledge with all the burdensome laws and taxes it may make it easy for a business to decide to produce outside the US. However, if we keep losing better paying US jobs who is going to be left to buy those $100 Nike's?!

Anyway, just wanted to see what others think.

 

[KlingonLRDRVR]

Ok I'll bite...
If our Government would back off on regulating everything down to the size of the bathroom installed by a business to taxing them to death for everyone's newest found "right" to more government handouts they might just stay in the good old USA. In fact did you know that when a "C" Corp. (those are publically held" issue dividends to thier shareholders the dividends are taxed on the corps. side and again on the shareholders side when he/she recieves it. Thats right its double taxation. Before one starts to sling sticks and stones at big business and yes that includes airline management take a long hard look at what types of regulations and taxes are put on them. We need some regulation and some taxes but IMHO what we have here is too much. Ok I have donned my Nomex suit... have at it.

KlingonLRDRVR

 

[enigma]

I think that you are on to something. Business flying must be reduced when business productivity itself is reduced. The blame belongs to the consumer who makes short-sighted purchases. I never buy anything without looking at the label. I will do without, before I buy anything of consequence that happens to be Chinese made. But I don't see many others doing the label search. Most of us just look for the cheapest item.

BTW, New Balance still operates at least one American footwear production facility. Even at that you, must read the label, because the majority of their shoes do come from the orient.

regards,
8N

 

[310]

Nafta and all the other regs is nothing but socialism forced on the american people thru trade laws. The socialist did not win in the cold war so now they are forcing american workers to compete with third world workers- that of course have lower costs- will work for less money- even less than the min. wage here. The playing field is not level- the employers have lower infrastructure and regulation costs in the third world. This will continue until it starts to affect mgmt types and the gov's ability to raise tax revenues then free trade will be restricted. Meanwhile the US will see it's manufacturing capabilities erode and manufacturing workers will have to move to Wal-mart type jobs. All of this is just more mass stupidity on the part of the elite-just as stupid as the deregulation of saving and loan industry. The world hates us no matter what we do so it is time to start looking out for ourselves.

 

[ch47fe]

Industrial Sector Shrinking

I'll jump in....

I come from a long line of farmers and factory workers. I was the only one to go to college and get a degree. Whoopie.

I tried to make a sound decision on the type of degree I would be earning on solely the employment potential. I got a degree in the IT field. I am in the process of a career change back to aviation because the work I do is not rewarding at all.

Manufacturing jobs will not be returning to this country anytime soon. America's place in the global economy will be managing the world's production of goods through IT infrastructure. American companies intend on increasing the bottom line by expanding production globally. If Americans really want to get a new skillset it would be wise to get some technical/programming skills because this will be the only chance you have to afford the $100.00 Nike shoes.

As for only purchasing products with labels made in the USA, good luck. I guarantee if you inventory your home and apply the logic of avoiding non US made goods you would not have very much left in your home with a USA label. That's not realistic. I will add I just bought a pair of New Balance running shoes and was pleasantly suprised. I look at labels too but there is not enough US made goods to compete nor will ever be in the market place.

The US invents,buys,improves, and repackages technologies and management models for the rest of the world. We have simply positioned ourselves to manage production,marketing, and distribution to maximize profits. I think the shortsightedness of GREED is the biggest culprit in American Management today.

Let's not forget our Senate/House/Congress passed NAFTA so nobody act like it was slipped under the rug on us.

Another simple truth is Americans do not vote during election times or follow what in the heck their government votes for. Americans only notice what their net pay is on the check, they do not look at how much taxes they pay. If the masses realized this, it would not take long for the political elite to actually represent the people by cutting taxes and voting for the majority.

I am a simple average person wanting to show humility to my fellow Americans but not get ripped off by taxation.

As for folks who try to compare the tax situation with other countries, don't go there, we still have a country where people can't get in fast enough. It sould still be a better place.

I thank God for the founding fathers and the hard working lower middle class that shaped this country to what it is today. I hope we don't totally screw it up by selling ourselves out.

I also pray that after I get my tickets their may be an airline industry left to get some employment in one day.

--Chris

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

Buy American

For some this may sound isolationist, and I am clearly aware we live in a "global economy", but I think we need to help ourselves first. Seem like we're heading in the direction of the serfs (sp?) and peasants. The gulf is widening.
There has been a lot of debate between the regionals and mainline folks about who should be doing the flying. If we had more and better Yankee jobs then perhaps the debate would be less because everyone would be too busy working! I acknowledge businesses aren't in business to keep the airlines afloat. But I think the loss of American business is more of a "root cause" (big business lingo for problem) than what has been acknowledged on this board. May be better for international traffic though but domestic is where the volume is as far as flying is concerned.
I do read labels as well. I bought a University of Florida "Gators" hat the other day not because I'm a Gator fan but because the hat label said, Made in the USA. I try to buy American when ever possible. Drive American/Detroit made cars (although Honda has a plant in Ohio and Toyota has plants in Kentucky and Indiana). I don't like supporting our comrades in China especially since I still look at them as the enemy (I know I'm old fashion) plus they don't play on the same field.
I am concerned it is going to come home to roost in the (near) future. Meanwhile, our politicians and businesses continue to "get it while you can". I am just a bug smasher pilot so I don't have a horse in the flying race, but as American business goes so goes the American flying biz.

 

[enigma]

Re: Industrial Sector Shrinking

.

...........
The US invents,buys,improves, and repackages technologies and management models for the rest of the world. We have simply positioned ourselves to manage production,marketing, and distribution to maximize profits.

I also pray that after I get my tickets their may be an airline industry left to get some employment in one day.

--Chris

Chris, You're arguing against your self. You see, an airline is "production" . Using the business model that you see as the new American standard, you'd better stay in IT, because Americans will only "manage production, marketing and distribution". Think about it.

I would also ask you what allowed the US to defeat the AXIS in 1945? (it wasn't an atomic bomb, by the way. the bomb only saved about a million American soldiers who would have died in the Japan invasion)

I would submit that although we are smart, and tough; we won because we outproduced the bad guys. When they sunk one flattop, we built four more. The Japanese Admiral (Yamamoto, I remember) who planned Pearl Harbor stated that Japan couldn't win a prolonged war. He knew that we would eventually overwhelm Japan if he didn't win the war in the first year.

If you search my house, you'll find a bunch of chinese made toys, because I can't stop my relatives from buying them for my kids. If you search my garage, you'll find only American made tools. I'm not totally isolationist, I do buy some foreign made goods. It's the stuff that is made by enslaved chinese that I avoid.

regards,
8N

 

[ch47fe]

I disagree...

Enigma,
Flying passengers around is a service it is not a product you can save for later or break and have it repaired, it doesn't wear out and require you to buy another one, you get the point.

No thanks, I will be leaving IT but thanks for the encouragement on entering aviation.

The service industry is now one of the larger portions of the economy continuing to grow.

I don't see how I am arguing with my own point.

Also you are in denial if you think you purchase goods that are not laden with communist labor somewhere in the mix.

--Chris

 

[Delta3]

Just think, a few decades ago new American citizens coming off of the boats at Ellis Island were proud to clean a restroom for a paycheck. But now we give those jobs to illegal immigrants.

 

[enigma]

Re: I disagree...

Enigma,
Flying passengers around is a service it is not a product you can save for later or break and have it repaired, it doesn't wear out and require you to buy another one, you get the point.

No thanks, I will be leaving IT but thanks for the encouragement on entering aviation.

The service industry is now one of the larger portions of the economy continuing to grow.

I don't see how I am arguing with my own point.

Also you are in denial if you think you purchase goods that are not laden with communist labor somewhere in the mix.

--Chris

Sorry, I must differ.

A seat mile is not a service. It is a product.

You CAN NOT save it for later. Once those dead dinosaurs turn from Jet A into noise, they are gone forever. An hour put on an engine is an hour. A cycle on the gear is a cycle. No a seat doesn't wear out, it just disappears when the boarding door closes. You can't even save a seat mile by parking the airplanes, leases/debt service/insurance/etc, still must be paid.


You wrote: "We have simply positioned ourselves to manage production,marketing, and distribution to maximize profits". If my grammer is correct, the main verb in that sentence is manage; and I believe that you are advocating that our economy doesn't need to produce anything because we are better managers than producers and we can just manage what the rest of the world produces. I imaging that the Japanese would argue with you, and the Irish, and the etc, etc, etc,.

I say, if what America does best is to manage, then DAL/AA/UAL/ etc. should just sub out their flying to ChinaAirlines and then manage the subcontractor.. After all, Chinese labor does fly cheaper than American major airline labor.

Maybe I shouldn't have said you were arguing against yourself, I should have said that you are advocating an economic system that will eventually insure that you never fly an airplane for an American airline.

Also, please re-read what I wrote. I never claimed to be able to buy no products that have no communist content. I said that I AVOID them. I have principles, and I make decisions accordingly. It is a principle of mine that slavery is wrong, so I try to avoid doing anything that encourages slavery. Buying a product that is produced by slave labor encourages slavery. I do admit to being an idealoge. I think abortion is wrong, and I don't make any exception for rape, etc. I also think that individual people are responsible for our actions and as such I always attempt to treat other humans as I want to be treated. Matter of fact that is the central theme to most of my posts. Responsibility, I don't blame management as much for PFT, because the individual who pays is the one who made the choice. It's his responsibility. There are plenty of other things to blame management for

regards,
8N

PS, I didn't encourage you to enter aviation, nor did I discourage you to. I only pointed out that your idea of American ability/specialty would result in no aviation job being available.

 

[enigma]

Just think, a few decades ago new American citizens coming off of the boats at Ellis Island were proud to clean a restroom for a paycheck. But now we give those jobs to illegal immigrants.

Sad, but one of the reasons is that Americans have gotten too "good" to do those menial jobs.

regards,
8N

 

[414Flyer]

Nafta and all the other regs is nothing but socialism forced on the american people thru trade laws. The socialist did not win in the cold war so now they are forcing american workers to compete with third world workers- that of course have lower costs- will work for less money- even less than the min. wage here. The playing field is not level- the employers have lower infrastructure and regulation costs in the third world. This will continue until it starts to affect mgmt types and the gov's ability to raise tax revenues then free trade will be restricted. Meanwhile the US will see it's manufacturing capabilities erode and manufacturing workers will have to move to Wal-mart type jobs. All of this is just more mass stupidity on the part of the elite-just as stupid as the deregulation of saving and loan industry. The world hates us no matter what we do so it is time to start looking out for ourselves.

Do you really have any idea what socialism is? NAFTA is completely opposed by most all socialists. Leftists, socialist groups, labor unions are all opposed to it.

Socialism is not about free trade. The two are pretty far apart

 

[V-1]

Where's PilotYip when you need him?

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I bet he'd tell you tales of an awful lot of jet freight runs his company has made from Detroit to El Paso to pick up automotive parts produced by NAFTA-created plants in Mexico. Manufacturing jobs were lost, professional pilot positions were created. I guarantee you I'd rather be sitting on the flightdeck of a Falcon 20 than in a factory making doorknobs.

It is a curiosity what will happen to the world's superpower when they no longer know how to build anything.

One of America's strongest assets is her ability to quickly change from one path to another. There are short-term pains granted, but just look at third-world countries whose economies are based on the same products and services they've been marketing for millennia. They certainly aren't model economies, although they don't have to worry much about their jobs being shipped elsewhere.

Adaptability is key. Change or die.

 

[310]

I equate nafta w/ socialism because it is the vehicle by which the bleeding heart liberals are using to redistribute the wealth of the world-primarily from the US to low paying jobs elsewhere. This is the same bunch that does not understand that with capitalism creats a "pie" that grows- so everyone can gain wealth- but they do not understand this concept so they devise schemes to redistribute the wealth of a fixed sized "pie". This redistribution is what is happening under nafta and other free trade agreements because the US companies and employees are forced to compete with those that use slave labor-indentured labor etc. These people are not playing by the same rules as we are- their "employees" are living a life of subsistence- alot of people to a small room- not real hope of doing better- no hope of a place of their own- no hope of their own vehicle etc. So US companies and workers have to compete on a unlevel playing field. This mindset is the same as poeple like Bono (with U2) that want the west to forgive third world dept- so that we not only loose our manufacturing jobs but also give alot of our tax money away- so that the elite of the third world countries can live large but not allow the citizens to profit.

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

V-1, you bring up a valid point and it is a good one as long as the parts final destination is the states.
Yes, one of the attributes of this country is our ability to change. I guess where I'm coming from is what is driving this change? I say it is not for noble reasons but rather greed. Our business and government leaders seem to sell their souls to live for the moment.
I would like to think if the next generation wants to fly either professionally or for fun that they'll live in a country where that is possible.

 

[aggiepilot87]

NAFTA is a capitalistic effort, albeit a flawed one. Flawed in that it offers unfair advantage to 3rd world mexico over the US by not equalizing the respective economic footing on which we're based. In other words, we abide by much more stringent regulations (enviro, health, safety, etc) than do the mexicans, but their goods are given near equal treatment in our country. We, through Kyoto, NAFTA, etc are *placing ourselves* in a very unfair competitive situation, period.

BTW - anyone realize that Gore had exceptions written into NAFTA exempting Tenessee whiskey from the agreement! I'm getting off the path...

The US can still defeat any country technologically/economically, if playing on an equal field. Technology, productivity, innovation - we've still got it. Look at any field of technology - the US still is on the top if not near. One example - look at gasoline prices - $1.29/gal. Corrected for inflation, they've been dropping for yeras. US petroleum extraction, transport and refining technology is the reason. But the other countries are much closer than they were 10-20 years ago.

The enemy is US! read, government regulation. I'm not saying it's grossly overdone, but in the last 10-15 years or so, it has become exceedingly burdensome. When manufacturing companies have to move their facilities overseas to increase/maintain profitability - something's wrong *here*. When politicians strike deals with countries having a far lower standard of living than the US without equalizing for this difference, you and I will loose.

Travel budgets in my industry have been cut to the bone, if not eliminated. I haven't flown commercially for work in almost 2 years. 5-10 years ago, I travelled 1-2 times/month. Back then, we bought full-fare tickets. You try that in today's business environment more than once and you may get fired for poor planning.

It's about change - accept it or get run over. The world economy is mostly to blame - good and bad. Selfish, nearsighted trade agreements and lack of tariffs on goods from undeveloped countries also aggrivate the situation. Yes - I'm an Attilla the Hun conservative, but I believe tarrifs are the answer to address the pollution spewing, child labor abusing, manufacturing countries (like Mexico and China primarily) unfairly competing with the 1st world countries.

The upside is that we are able to enjoy affordable manufactured items - $69 VCR's, $299 camcorders, $4.99 shirts, $21.99 tennis shoes.

See it how you want - the glass half full or half empty. It's the result of the global economy. And we'll all eventually be living at the same standard, if China doesn't take over the world first. They will be the next super economy/power within 20 years.

BTW - passenger flight service is a service, not a manufactured good.

happy flying

 

[ch47fe]

Don't be so huffy....

Enigma,
I am not saying America ahould have any specific business model. I'm simply stating where I think its going.

I still beleive flying is a service not a product.
Pilots provide a service that cannot be put into your pocket.

You are taking my statements as if I am saying pilots don't produce anything, not so they are the core of aviation. If management could farm out the jobs to China or a machine they would, FACT.

We are a country that survives and the best country in the world, non doubt.

The government can't protect industry from everything either. We must be forced to adapt and we are everyday.

I am in Germany now and it just confirms to me the US is the best place in the worls to live. I can't even find a laundry mat here. Possible international business opp?

I'm not advocating any business model to eliminate a future job I want either, management will do what it has to for profit and survival whether you agree with it or not.

You did encourage me to stay in IT. Don't back out of your snippy remark, it's in print. Go back and read it. That's okay there will be plenty of other persons who I will deal with on my new path into aviation who don't welcome me. It will be a long road but I will survive.

I hope you enjoy your flying job today. I'm on the way!!!
--Chris

 

[enigma]

BTW - passenger flight service is a service, not a manufactured good.

happy flying

Great post.

About terminology. We can call our industry service, or we can call it a product. ( I didn't call it a manufactured good). The terminology doesn't matter. My point was that the service/product/good couldn't be saved from one day to the next. When the seat mile is flown, it's gone for good; regardless of whether it was occupied or empty.

regards,
8N

 

[enigma]

Don't be so huffy....

Enigma,
I am not saying America ahould have any specific business model. I'm simply stating where I think its going.

I still beleive flying is a service not a product.
Pilots provide a service that cannot be put into your pocket.

You are taking my statements as if I am saying pilots don't produce anything, not so they are the core of aviation. If management could farm out the jobs to China or a machine they would, FACT.

We are a country that survives and the best country in the world, non doubt.

The government can't protect industry from everything either. We must be forced to adapt and we are everyday.

I am in Germany now and it just confirms to me the US is the best place in the worls to live. I can't even find a laundry mat here. Possible international business opp?

I'm not advocating any business model to eliminate a future job I want either, management will do what it has to for profit and survival whether you agree with it or not.

You did encourage me to stay in IT. Don't back out of your snippy remark, it's in print. Go back and read it. That's okay there will be plenty of other persons who I will deal with on my new path into aviation who don't welcome me. It will be a long road but I will survive.

I hope you enjoy your flying job today. I'm on the way!!!
--Chris

First, I may have written a snippy remark, but I didn't discourage you from entering the field. Here it is again. "Using the business model that you see as the new American standard, you'd better stay in IT, because Americans will only "manage production, marketing and distribution". Think about it. " Take that as a challenge if you like, but not discouragement.

Second, if you really want to be in this industry, you'd better grow some thicker skin. If your reaction to a post of mine, that was a little "snippy" but was otherwise intended to debate an issue, has you this defensive then this business will eat you up. Nothing personal friend. AND, I appologize for the snippyness. Sorry.

Third, What does this mean? " I hope you enjoy your flying job today. I'm on the way!!!

Fourth, We're obviously debating from different perspectives on the issue. Your last post indicates that you are speaking to the work performed by pilots. I have specifically stated that I am talking about seat miles, i.e., the product that the pilots services produce. I don't disagree with you that piloting is a service. But we pilots work for airlines that produce a product, and that product is a seat mile. Which brings us to the crux of the matter; does the American economy excell at managment, or at production. If we only excell at management, then we will eventually have our American companies managing the production of others. When that occurs, American citizen pilots will become as rare as American citizen cruise ship Captains.

It's too late to think, Later.
8N

 

[ch47fe]

What it means....

Sorry for being deceptive, with my comment.

I posted "I hope you enjoy your flying job today"

That means, When you go to work today and fly the plane, have fun. Enjoy your office in the sky. I am implying that I think your job is fun/interesting and I would like to fly too for a living soon.

"I'm on the way!!", means I am heading into the aviation world by starting some full time training.

The Comment about getting thicker skin, please. Getting dogged by a round brown 24-7 has thickened my skin enough to handle this industry. Uncle Sugar has properly equipped this troop for some standard rate BS, and attitude. A round brown is a Drill Sergeant if you didn't know. Faith in God will carry me the rest of the way.

I just wanted you to acknowledge your comment not apologize for being a 'meanie'. You know you high time guys are supposed to be nice to the newbies. Just kidding.

Maybe I will fly with you one day and be able to have a better conversation in person.

It's been interesting.

Later.