Looking to go from Airline to Corp.

[sleepy]

I almost forgot, you might try being an instructor at FSI. They don't pay too well (and I base that on all of the bitching I hear from their instructors when I am there for training), but you can get typed in some corporate aircraft, start contract flying, and make some great connections for a good corporate job.

CAE just landed the training contract for the Falcon 7X. I understand that they will be building a training facility near TEB. You might try them as well.

As well, you may just like contract flying. You can make some pretty good money doing it in the NJ and NY areas.

 

[Throttlebender]

MilMil and Scarface,

You guys have gotta be OLD geasers huh? I'm JUST KIDDING It's just funny to hear guys talking about jobs from "78-79" when I didn't even start flying til twenty years later.

Anyway, MilMil good luck with the transition. I think Sleepy had a good idea about instructing at FSI or somewhere like that. Good contact I'm sure.

 

[westwind driver]

stay seated; well yes I will concede that I did perhaps use the wide brush for the airline canvas, however, my thoughts and opinions do not go unjustified. Let’s just look at the NWA strike of 1998, where negotiators for Northwest Airlines and ALPA failed to reach a contract agreement triggering a strike by 6,150 pilots august of that year. The strike crippled the nation's fourth largest airline which provides 12 percent of US air service. The shutdown of NWA and its Airlink regional feeder service eliminates 2,640 daily departures at 223 airports in the US, Europe, Asia and India, and disrupts the transport of some 2.9 million pounds of cargo per day, including the US mail.



NWA held a press conference to present what they claimed was their final offer to ALPA: A four year contract with a 3 percent pay increase upon signing and subsequent increases of 2 percent, 1.5 percent and 2.5 percent; the reduction of the "B scale" which is a lower tiered wage of $24,000 a year for new hires from 5 years to 3 years; lump sum payments equal to 3.5 percent of annual pay; profit sharing of up to 5 percent of pay....



And of course ALPA came back saying "What they put out is wildly untrue and unspecific." They emphasized the lack of job security provisions in the contract.



Now, granted NWAs pilots and executives did make numerous concessions back in 1993 to save the airline, and I can understand why they would have wanted pay increases.. But let me present the irony.



In 1998 Both NWA and Air Canada pilots striked... NWAs negotiations with ALPA lasted 3+ years... And while ALPA was concerned with "job security," Northwest had laid off 27,500 mechanics, flight attendants, customer service employees and other ground workers due to the strike. And that was only on the 4th day.



I find it humoring that ALPA and the pilots are/were only concerned about themselves, and not with the overall well being of the airline and their fellow employees. And so, now after 9/11 when the airlines too even bigger hits after all of the strikes, the pilots are suddenly faced with the fact the their XYZ airline is struggling, and thus jump ship. I do not consider 240 Delta pilots retiring early so they don't have to take a 1/3 pension cut a concession. That would be so if they stayed with the airline and accepted the concession package, which cuts pilots' pay by 32.5 percent, will save the carrier USD$1 billion annually over the next five years. The deal also replaces the pilots' traditional pension plan with one that has fewer benefits.



So if you look at the overall affect of the actions by airline pilots, you would understand why I said "pilots have the airlines by the nuts," and why "Airline execs gave in." Granted, it was not just a final "okay we'll give you whatever you want," but almost. Pilots can drive an airline into the ground, if they're only looking out for themselves.



I too know several airline pilots, who started out flying corporate, didn't like it, and came back to fly with their friends.



I realize some airline pilots may be there because that's the first job they were offered, but please don't be so naive to not think that the majority of them wanted to fly for an airline.



Personally, I have no desire to fly airline, I have corporate blood in me

But, I will say that may change one day, as I may find an airline out there that is the golden cow .



Kind Regards.

Jesus westwind, "pilots have the airlines by the nuts"? "Airline execs gave in"? You might want to look back a few years and see how much control "unions" have over any airline. Regardless, I think you might have painted with a pretty broad brush. I know several airline pilots that have been trying to get into the corporate world long before the recent string of events. They just happened to be flying 121 because that was the first job they were offered after instructing.

I have found obtaining a corporate job to be very challenging, and most job postings are filled prior any ad or post by internal recs. There are some jobs out there but most seem to be 91/135 as opposed to the higher paying, better qol 91 gigs. Good luck to the airways gent looking for work and congrats on your type westwind.

 

[westwind driver]

Milmil,

Why would I be upset that you have better qualifications/experience than I do? See, a comment like that just reaffirms in my mind the mentallity airline pilots have. "I'm better than you."

I mean, come on. I'm a 1500 hour 21 year old pilot, type rated in a turbojet airplane, making pretty descent money... and the way I see it, I have plenty of time to gain more experience flying with the 18,000 hour chief pilot and 7,000 hour senior captain.

So this crap of I'm upset because someone has more experience, RUBBISH. BUT, five years from now, when I have more time and experience, I'm gonna have to compete with someone like you (an airline pilot) for a corporate job. Now heres how that turns out. The job only pays 60k a year... I have a couple thousand hours, you have 10s of thousands. Of course whoever is in charge of hiring will want the more experienced pilot, and if you're willing to make 60k, I'm possibly out of a job.

My point is that I would much rather compete with fellow corporate aviators and not airline pilots who jump ship like a rat just because they caused the airlines to collapse. It is not entirely the pilots fault, but you are at least 75% of the problem.

To all,

Thx for the replies and the suggestions. It looks like I stepped on a hornet's nest.

Specifically, to "Westwind driver": Wow. It seems that you're upset with me simply because I have better qualifications/experience than you do. My guess is you are a lot younger also. Do you really feel that a pilot shouldn't be able to move between fields in aviation? Have you thought out that concept?

I started out flight instructing when I was 18 years old flew 135 in light twins for years then got my big break being a co-pilot on a Beech -99 loading bags in the belly pod in beautiful places like JST, PSB, AOO so I do know how hard it is to make it in this industry. Now that I am getting older I would rather not drive a long distance to work anymore and would prefer a job that didn't have me RONing ten plus days a month. So I posted my question. I am sorry that it upset you so much.

To "con-pilot": I am way to use to forums that have a spell checker. You are absolutely right. If I ever get enough guts to post here again I will proof read my posts more carefully. ( how did I do this time?)


milmil

 

[bafanguy]

But, I will say that may change one day, as I may find an airline out there that is the golden cow .



Kind Regards.

westwind driver,

OK, Kid...remain near your keyboard and keep your hands where I can see 'em.

I suspect you are guilty of PWI ( posting while intoxicated) and I am required by law to give you an OUST ( online unbiased sobriety test)...

simultaneously depress the Ctrl,Alt, and Delete keys of your keyboard.......

BU BYE !!!!!!!!!!!

 

[semperfido]

good post (3 back)...long live the free market economy

 

[westwind driver]

Thats funny you mean you kissed ass to get your job now your pissed because someone with real expierence might take a job you feel you deserve. Heres some advice for you get some expierence and interview for a better job dont try and talk your way into one

Yep, spoken like a true airline pilot....

Maybe if you didn't have your head so far up your own a$$, you would have read the part where I said; "westwind driver: you know, I'm a low time pilot who just within the last year earned my first ever type rating... It has taken me thousands and thousands of dollars for my flight training, and finally I get a lucky break... so, in a few years from now, after I gain more experience, accumulate more time, and make captain…."


did you get that part? I did not kiss ass to get my job, I worked hard for it, got to know people, got my name out there and networked. I don't bitch about whether or not I deserve a certain flying job or pay, and sure don't try to talk my way into anything.


and of course you completely missed my point because why would I want to quit my job? I'm a 1500 hour pilot with PIC quals. in the Westwind (a turbojet aircraft) I don't have an SOE limitation and we are soon to start flying charter. This is my opportunity to gain experience and build time.


So, my point was that FIVE YEARS from now if I'm looking for a different position, I would much rather compete with more qualified corporate pilots, and not an airline pilot who may not have any knowledge of the corporate world of flying, but got hired because the boss thinks "oh, he's an airline pilot.. he must know what he's doing, oh and he has a lot of experience."


I'm not one to ever take away from another fellow pilot's total time and experience... but when I finally get a 60k+/Yr job interview, I would rather it go to the Gulfstream captain than the Boeing captain who has more experience than I do... GET IT?

 

[Flywrite]

stay seated; well yes I will concede that I did perhaps use the wide brush for the airline canvas, however, my thoughts and opinions do not go unjustified. Let’s just look at the NWA strike of 1998, where negotiators for Northwest Airlines and ALPA failed to reach a contract agreement triggering a strike by 6,150 pilots august of that year. The strike crippled the nation's fourth largest airline which provides 12 percent of US air service. The shutdown of NWA and its Airlink regional feeder service eliminates 2,640 daily departures at 223 airports in the US, Europe, Asia and India, and disrupts the transport of some 2.9 million pounds of cargo per day, including the US mail.



NWA held a press conference to present what they claimed was their final offer to ALPA: A four year contract with a 3 percent pay increase upon signing and subsequent increases of 2 percent, 1.5 percent and 2.5 percent; the reduction of the "B scale" which is a lower tiered wage of $24,000 a year for new hires from 5 years to 3 years; lump sum payments equal to 3.5 percent of annual pay; profit sharing of up to 5 percent of pay....



And of course ALPA came back saying "What they put out is wildly untrue and unspecific." They emphasized the lack of job security provisions in the contract.



Now, granted NWAs pilots and executives did make numerous concessions back in 1993 to save the airline, and I can understand why they would have wanted pay increases.. But let me present the irony.



In 1998 Both NWA and Air Canada pilots striked... NWAs negotiations with ALPA lasted 3+ years... And while ALPA was concerned with "job security," Northwest had laid off 27,500 mechanics, flight attendants, customer service employees and other ground workers due to the strike. And that was only on the 4th day.



I find it humoring that ALPA and the pilots are/were only concerned about themselves, and not with the overall well being of the airline and their fellow employees. And so, now after 9/11 when the airlines too even bigger hits after all of the strikes, the pilots are suddenly faced with the fact the their XYZ airline is struggling, and thus jump ship. I do not consider 240 Delta pilots retiring early so they don't have to take a 1/3 pension cut a concession. That would be so if they stayed with the airline and accepted the concession package, which cuts pilots' pay by 32.5 percent, will save the carrier USD$1 billion annually over the next five years. The deal also replaces the pilots' traditional pension plan with one that has fewer benefits.



So if you look at the overall affect of the actions by airline pilots, you would understand why I said "pilots have the airlines by the nuts," and why "Airline execs gave in." Granted, it was not just a final "okay we'll give you whatever you want," but almost. Pilots can drive an airline into the ground, if they're only looking out for themselves.



I too know several airline pilots, who started out flying corporate, didn't like it, and came back to fly with their friends.



I realize some airline pilots may be there because that's the first job they were offered, but please don't be so naive to think that the majority of them wanted to fly for an airline.



Personally, I have no desire to fly airline, I have corporate blood in me

But, I will say that may change one day, as I may find an airline out there that is the golden cow .



Kind Regards.

And this has what to do with Milmil asking about corporate jobs in the PHL area???

Sounds like you got more issues than National Geographic....

 

[westwind driver]

westwind driver,

OK, Kid...remain near your keyboard and keep your hands where I can see 'em.

I suspect you are guilty of PWI ( posting while intoxicated) and I am required by law to give you an OUST ( online unbiased sobriety test)...

simultaneously depress the Ctrl,Alt, and Delete keys of your keyboard.......

BU BYE !!!!!!!!!!!

oh come one... i just thought everyone here would see the humor in that

to everyone, I apologise for being so brutal with my first post, but that is kinda the way I feel, perhaps with time I'll be able to express it in a more diplomatic way, until then.... NAH-NAH NAH-NAH BOO-BOO!

 

[westwind driver]

gets on soapbox:

obviously you dont understand the concept of evolution... as in how this thread has evolved from my ranting reply, into a ranting discussion about airline pilots going corporate... There's jobs in PHL, with USAirways, which I'm sure Milmil flies for already....

:gets off soapbox

And this has what to do with Milmil asking about corporate jobs in the PHL area???

Sounds like you got more issues than National Geographic....

 

[timmay]

Yep, spoken like a true airline pilot....

Maybe if you didn't have your head so far up your own a$$, you would have read the part where I said; "westwind driver: you know, I'm a low time pilot who just within the last year earned my first ever type rating... It has taken me thousands and thousands of dollars for my flight training, and finally I get a lucky break... so, in a few years from now, after I gain more experience, accumulate more time, and make captain…."


did you get that part? I did not kiss ass to get my job, I worked hard for it, got to know people, got my name out there and networked. I don't bitch about whether or not I deserve a certain flying job or pay, and sure don't try to talk my way into anything.


and of course you completely missed my point because why would I want to quit my job? I'm a 1500 hour pilot with PIC quals. in the Westwind (a turbojet aircraft) I don't have an SOE limitation and we are soon to start flying charter. This is my opportunity to gain experience and build time.


So, my point was that FIVE YEARS from now if I'm looking for a different position, I would much rather compete with more qualified corporate pilots, and not an airline pilot who may not have any knowledge of the corporate world of flying, but got hired because the boss thinks "oh, he's an airline pilot.. he must know what he's doing, oh and he has a lot of experience."


I'm not one to ever take away from another fellow pilot's total time and experience... but when I finally get a 60k+/Yr job interview, I would rather it go to the Gulfstream captain than the Boeing captain who has more experience than I do... GET IT?

Ok now your age is showing but first off congratulations on a type at 21 thats very good I had to wait til I was 23 for my type. As you learn more about this industry you will find out that total time and experience doesnt automatically get you a job over someone less qualified. Attitude plays a big part in the decision to hire one person over the other. You should concentrate on building your time and when you do get the interview your waiting for dont worry about who your competing with just keep a positive attitude. That will take you farther than tens of thousands of hours.

 

[westwind driver]

Thank you for the congrats. I know I have showed my arse a bit, but give me time.. I will get better... or so the nurse says

I'm glad to see that guys like you can keep a cool head and actually turn a post like mine around into something positive.. thanks for the advice, I will try to heed.

So, can't we all just get along?!

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread and will continue to do so....
Regards.

Ok now your age is showing but first off congratulations on a type at 21 thats very good I had to wait til I was 23 for my type. As you learn more about this industry you will find out that total time and experience doesnt automatically get you a job over someone less qualified. Attitude plays a big part in the decision to hire one person over the other. You should concentrate on building your time and when you do get the interview your waiting for dont worry about who your competing with just keep a positive attitude. That will take you farther than tens of thousands of hours.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Milmil,


Still wanna fly corporate and get a steady diet of Captain westwind driver ? LOL LOL LOL

"Corporate Pilot?"....

Westwind Driver sounds like a beat up charter puke.

If having a Westwind type rating (no matter what your age) has put you on a pedestal, you are, well....strange.

I would sell mine for 50$ if possible.

"corporate is in my blood".....WTF? did someone actually SAY that??

**SMACK**

P.S. "First Officer/Junior Captain"....whats that? OH....FSI gave you a type rating so you are a "Captain"...I see......



.

 

[scarface]

Hey Miller mayybe we could get Dale Clemens to give us our old flight instructor jobs back at Clark Aviation.
After we do that for a few years they can just throw us in a tar pit.

 

[westwind driver]

"Corporate Pilot?"....

Westwind Driver sounds like a beat up charter puke.

If having a Westwind type rating (no matter what your age) has put you on a pedestal, you are, well....strange.

I would sell mine for 50$ if possible.

"corporate is in my blood".....WTF? did someone actually SAY that??

**SMACK**

P.S. "First Officer/Junior Captain"....whats that? OH....FSI gave you a type rating so you are a "Captain"...I see......



.

Oh lets see how I should address this....

1. I haven't flown charter at all. All the experience I have is flying with local people I have met and keep in contact with. When I was 11 I attended FSI recurrent on the Citation 560 with a family member and flew right seat in the simulator during his sim sessions. The FSI class and sim instructors felt I performed so well, that after a subsequent visit to FSI on Citation 650 recurrent, the center manager gave me an open invitation to attend FSI Citation 500 and 650 series recurrents and fly right seat in the sims. I took this opportunity and did just that every summer until I turned 16, flying with 16 different pilots of a Fortune 500 company. I didn't have a full time gig up until Jan. this year. Before I flew on a King Air 200 as often as the operator needed, and flew many trips for free to build up SIC turbine time. I have flown SIC on numerous Westwinds based all over the US from Florida to Arkansas, Indiana and Virginia. I have flown twin cessnas on maintence flights and with friends and family. Up untill recently all I used to do was contract flying... chasing jobs and opportunitys that I could get. And I still do it.

2. Why would you think I am of the opion that having a type rating elevates me above anyone else? You need to justify this statement, otherwise my friend, you simply sound foolish. I do not think myself to be better than anyone else just because I hold a type rating. Like the program manager at Simuflite told me, "This is a license to learn." I am humble believe me.

3. As far as corporate being in my blood; I have family that flies corporate. So-be-it that I am biased to corporate, but it is what I have been exposed to, and I have enjoyed it very much. Corporate flying has been good to my family. Thats why some of them fly for Fortune 500 and Fortune 300 companies.. Who did you say you flew for again? And allow me to ask this question; Would it be so rediculous if someone said, "flying is in my blood?" I didn't think so.

4. As for First Officer/Junior Captain... Well, thats what it says on my employment offer letter. Is it so hard for you to imagine that I serve the capacity as a FO/SIC, and as a Junior Captain/SIC. Maybe I work under better pilots and for a better operation than you. I consider it an honor that my chief pilot and the Senior Captain allow me to make "Captain" decisions, with of course their supervision. Sometimes I am allowed a decision, which maybe the senior pilot disagrees with me on, and we go with the senior pilot. Plain and simple. They are gracious enough to delegate some authority to me so that I may learn from their better judgement. They have taken me under their wing so to say, no pun intended. Ultimately of course, the senior pilot has the final say and authority, which I fully respect.

5. I went to Simuflite and got my type. So before you make assumptions, research my posts and read them properly.

6. Gulfstream G200... thats a Galaxy... why is it Westwind pilots are treated like Gulfstreams red-headed cousin, but the Galaxy drivers now think of themselves as part of the Gulfstream brotherin... What about us westwind folks?

 

[banned username 2]

and flew many trips for free to build up SIC turbine time.

Now THAT was the WRONG thing to say on this board!

Please don your "Flame Suit" immediately!

INCOMING!!!!!!!!!

 

[English]

uh oh...where's Gulfstream 200...this might be a candidate for his new signature line.

 

[westwind driver]

Now THAT was the WRONG thing to say on this board!

Thats right, I had the balls to say it. I recieved no compensation because the B200 operator didn't actually NEED me on the trip, but they did agree to pick up my expenses, food/hotel.... BUT, most of the time, the owner would 'tip' me $50 when we got back home. Sometimes he would hand me a wad of $20s, and when I would get in my car to leave the airport, it was $140-160... to me, it was quite worth it. I don't fly for chicken poop now... i did eventually get burned that way....

 

[Throttlebender]

wow...that's all I can say

 

[English]

uh oh, the tips word...where's netjetwife?


Any more trigger words or subjects?