Look like an uprising at ALPA is on the horizon

[Skywest Pylot]

If LM can't keep his own union in order... how can he be expected to run ALPA National?

Prater and Moak are birds of a feather. Moak has got to go as well. Why do dirtbags always seem to gravitate to these leadership positions? Maybe Moak should spend less time attending parties with folks like R.A. and more time representing pilots.

 

[JoeMerchant]

This is entertaining if nothing else....Ray Charles could have seen this train wreck coming within ALPA.

That being said, what changes by leaving ALPA? American/APA and Eagle/ALPA have the same issues.

As much as it pains me to say this, ALPA didn't create this mess. They didn't help, but they sure didn't create it. EGO by "big airplane" drivers created this mess. Somehow, we got off the track by thinking that seat number and propulsion made us different. That was a mistake.

This morphed into using the smaller airplanes to "build time" so that one could become a "real" airline pilot. All the while, those at the top, continued to sell of the bottom numbers to protect what they had....The spiral tightened.....

Now here we are, and we somehow think that we can change the letters of the organization that represents us....Go for it if you want, but it doesn't change the basic problem, or the attitude that got us here....

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Are you guys serious?

Have you read the website?

There is no plan. There is no volunteers listed. They are too scared to list names. You have to live in Tampa to join the elite leadership of this groundbreaking union.

They have vowed to spend dues money on hiring the best union labor talent in the industry. Guess who the best union labor talent in the industry works for.

Someone spends two hours creating a website and you are predicting the doom of ALPA.

Good luck with all that.

Now, I wonder WHY they are anonymous? Hmmmm.... :erm:

Nothing like fractured Union representation helping pilots get ahead. Just ask USAir!

Now who would want something like THAT to happen? :erm:

Delta Pilots Association • P.O. Box 17025 • Tampa, FL 33682-7025

http://www.fordharrison.com/showoffice.aspx?show=57 Ford & Harrison Tampa, FL

Delta's EVP of HR, from Anti-Pilot Union-Busting Law Firm Ford & Harrison
http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=109308

Mike H. Campbell, 59, executive vice president human resources, labor and communications, joined Delta in 2006 from Atlanta-based law firm Ford & Harrison, where he was a founding partner. Oversaw human resources and labor relations for Continental in the 1990s.

AIR Conference - Airline Industrial Relations Conference http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/im...milies/mad.gif
http://aircon.org/what_is_aircon/index.htm

"WHAT IS AIR CONFERENCE AIR CONFERENCE is a voluntary, non-profit association serving as the Washington-based labor policy organization of scheduled air carriers in the United States. Created in 1971 as a vehicle for dealing with accelerating labor costs on an industry-wide basis, AIR CONFERENCE provides for inter-carrier exchange of information on negotiations and other employee relations matters. It is the only legally approved forum for joint study of labor policy matters of common interest to the scheduled carriers.

AIR CONFERENCE is governed by a Board of Directors composed of the Chief Executive Officers of all member carriers. The President of the Conference serves for a term of one year without compensation except for expenses authorized by the Advisory Board. The Advisory Board is composed of the chief employee relations officers at each member carrier. Annual operating budgets are determined by the Advisory Board subject to approval by the Board of Directors. General management of all Conference programs is under the direction of the Vice President.
CLICK HERE to see our staff directory.
http://aircon.org/images/staff/staff_dir.gifhttp://aircon.org/images/staff/executive_dir.gifPresident
Michael H. Campbell
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Executive Vice President - Human Resources and Labor Relations "[/FONT]

----------------------------------------

I SERIOUSLY hope you guys have stopped being so gullable and falling for these divisive tactics. They PREY on dissention at ALPA to accomplish their goals. With the amount of work and unity it would take to REALLY start another union (which does not seem to be occurring here) why not direct that energy at FORCING ALPA to accomplish what you are paying them big money to do?

Unite together as pilots and force change within your current union. Status quo should be unacceptable, but it shouldn't involve being victimized by a group who gets millions upon millions from your companies to keep money from pilots and pull tactics like this APPEARS to be.

 

[sinkrate]

This is entertaining if nothing else....Ray Charles could have seen this train wreck coming within ALPA.

That being said, what changes by leaving ALPA? American/APA and Eagle/ALPA have the same issues.

As much as it pains me to say this, ALPA didn't create this mess. They didn't help, but they sure didn't create it. EGO by "big airplane" drivers created this mess. Somehow, we got off the track by thinking that seat number and propulsion made us different. That was a mistake.

This morphed into using the smaller airplanes to "build time" so that one could become a "real" airline pilot. All the while, those at the top, continued to sell of the bottom numbers to protect what they had....The spiral tightened.....

Now here we are, and we somehow think that we can change the letters of the organization that represents us....Go for it if you want, but it doesn't change the basic problem, or the attitude that got us here....

ALPA pilots violated one of the fundamental concepts of business when they let go of small AC jobs. If you provide a service you do it for all customers. You even take on the little jobs with little revenue. If you don't you open a door for a competitor (regionals) to take more of your business.

ALPA attempted to limit the competition and wage losses by including the regional pilots in their union. So far that does not appear to have been successful.

The only way 'mainline' pilots will be able to end the competition is to buy back those jobs and include them on their list. So far no pilot group has been willing to pay the price to achieve that.

It is a classic business management problem that has played out a thousand times before in a number of different industries. It is a scenario that has been presented in business schools for decades. Do you protect your high margin business even though your market share is shrinking? Or do you take on low margin business to expand your market share and limit your competition?

When employees are involved in the decision and wages are the issue guess which way they go almost all the time. Pilots will protect that they have while giving up jobs until they go the way of the UAW. Instead of foreign labor taking their jobs it will be 'regional' labor.

In the mean time pilots blame ALPA for their unwillingness to pony up what it will take to unify the industry again.

If the Delta and United pilots leave ALPA there will be nothing preventing regionals being used to break a strike at a 'major' carrier. Sooner or later a carrier will try it.

 

[eaglesview]

If the majority of pilots (Delta and UAL) in ALPA want to form a different union because they are unhappy, why don't they just focus their attention on changing the existing union, instead of reinventing the wheel.

Reality is that we are out numbered in ALPA by RJ pilots.

 

[Flopgut]

In the mean time pilots blame ALPA for their unwillingness to pony up what it will take to unify the industry again.

If the Delta and United pilots leave ALPA there will be nothing preventing regionals being used to break a strike at a 'major' carrier. Sooner or later a carrier will try it.

So if you're ALPA, mainline, and junior the only option is to put the needs of the regional pilot ahead of my own? Anything less is a green light for a regional pilot to fly my struck work? I work for CAL and I don't feel obligated to give up my 50 seat jet scope clause.....

 

[MECH]

All you have to do is look at what is happening in Washington to see that going to a local union is a mistake. CAPA gets to put out press releases in response to new rules and regulations. ALPA gets a seat at the table. We may not always like the out come. But at least we had a voice in the process.

Also ALPA is only as good as it's members. So if you take a weak MEC and become an stand alone union. All you will be left with is a broke weak union, with no voice at the goverment or international level.

Please educate yourself before posting that ALPA has done nothing for you lately.

 

[sinkrate]

So if you're ALPA, mainline, and junior the only option is to put the needs of the regional pilot ahead of my own? Anything less is a green light for a regional pilot to fly my struck work? I work for CAL and I don't feel obligated to give up my 50 seat jet scope clause.....

Absolutely not. But....DAL and UAL save a lot of money by contracting out 76 seat and smaller operations. If the pilots at those carriers wish to bring that flying back in house they are going to need to do it for the same price as the contractors or management will never agree to it. If management does you will see the number of jobs on your property shrink in this competitive world. A lot of pilots will scream 'I'm not going to pay for the mistakes made 30 years ago by this union'. It definetly isn't fair but that's life.

I fly for a regional. I don't know any pilot here that wouldn't rather fly our 50 seat RJ's at a mainline carrier. We would love to see these jobs bought back to the list they belong on. But there is no way regional pilots can accomplish that - we don't even have a seat at the table. The mainline pilots are the only ones that can make that happen. If you don't want to make it happen or don't want to pay the price - thats fine. Just don't expect us to walk away from our jobs so yours will pay better.

In the end we all want the same thing - but no one wants to pay the price to make it happen.

 

[~~~^~~~]

ALPA pilots violated one of the fundamental concepts of business when they let go of small AC jobs. If you provide a service you do it for all customers. You even take on the little jobs with little revenue. If you don't you open a door for a competitor (regionals) to take more of your business.

ALPA attempted to limit the competition and wage losses by including the regional pilots in their union. So far that does not appear to have been successful.

The only way 'mainline' pilots will be able to end the competition is to buy back those jobs and include them on their list. So far no pilot group has been willing to pay the price to achieve that.

It is a classic business management problem that has played out a thousand times before in a number of different industries. It is a scenario that has been presented in business schools for decades. Do you protect your high margin business even though your market share is shrinking? Or do you take on low margin business to expand your market share and limit your competition?

When employees are involved in the decision and wages are the issue guess which way they go almost all the time. Pilots will protect that they have while giving up jobs until they go the way of the UAW. Instead of foreign labor taking their jobs it will be 'regional' labor.

In the mean time pilots blame ALPA for their unwillingness to pony up what it will take to unify the industry again.

If the Delta and United pilots leave ALPA there will be nothing preventing regionals being used to break a strike at a 'major' carrier. Sooner or later a carrier will try it.

Well stated.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Because ALPA leadership (Prater) has Completely lost touch with the membership. Why not change it? Cause the "Good Old Boys" have entrenched themselves way too deep. I am a Delta pilot and I am tired of being sold out.

Who says you won't be sold out if you change it?