Look like an uprising at ALPA is on the horizon

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The one dinosaur trick ALPA has perfected is scaring the dues paying serfs.

"Always remember that the king has the helm and no serf need think for himself or doubt because it could really upset the boat. Neither should he think himself wise enough to vote without the wise council of the mothership, nor should he even consider wondering off the reservation to form something better."

Look how it has destroyed American and imagine were SoutWest would be if they paid dues to ALPA!

Does the APA and SWAPA buy services from ALPA?

 

[Turtle21]

Does the APA and SWAPA buy services from ALPA?

Agreed, the APA and SWAPA actually allow their pilots to vote, and evidently don't purchase ALPA crack negotiators. But if they did, imagine the yacht ALPA would skim.

 

[jonjuan]

Does the APA and SWAPA buy services from ALPA?

Yep and DPA will too. Why buy the whole cow when you can get a quart of fresh milk for $1.99.

 

[tomgoodman]

Cow Cabotage

Why buy the whole cow when you can get a quart of fresh milk for $1.99.

Depending on how much milk you need, owning the cow may be cheaper. Besides, when you "outsource" services you might not receive the same quality, as we repeatedly tell airline management.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Tom, I completely agree!

 

[Turtle21]

Depending on how much milk you need, owning the cow may be cheaper. Besides, when you "outsource" services you might not receive the same quality, as we repeatedly tell airline management.

Less quality.. :laugh: Yeah, like when ALPA outsources seniority integration determination.

Most ALPA officials are seen as no different than entrenched, corrupt career politicians that put protection of self interest above their representational responsibilities. Its sorta degenerated into a Ponzi scheme. Who knows how much longer they can hold out against the growing unrest of the natives.

Maybe ALPA should come out with an aggressive campaign to tell the natives to calm down and point the finger of accusation in the correct direction..

Its your fault... YOU are ALPA! Yeah, that will work.

Rez, PCL, over to you!

 

[PCL_128]

This is entertaining if nothing else....Ray Charles could have seen this train wreck coming within ALPA.

That being said, what changes by leaving ALPA? American/APA and Eagle/ALPA have the same issues.

As much as it pains me to say this, ALPA didn't create this mess. They didn't help, but they sure didn't create it. EGO by "big airplane" drivers created this mess. Somehow, we got off the track by thinking that seat number and propulsion made us different. That was a mistake.

This morphed into using the smaller airplanes to "build time" so that one could become a "real" airline pilot. All the while, those at the top, continued to sell of the bottom numbers to protect what they had....The spiral tightened.....

Now here we are, and we somehow think that we can change the letters of the organization that represents us....Go for it if you want, but it doesn't change the basic problem, or the attitude that got us here....

Quite possibly the best post you've ever made here. Well said!

 

[DGdaPilot]

Agreed, the APA and SWAPA actually allow their pilots to vote, and evidently don't purchase ALPA crack negotiators. But if they did, imagine the yacht ALPA would skim.

And how much progress has their been at the negotiating table over at AA? Hmmm.......

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Less quality.. :laugh: Yeah, like when ALPA outsources seniority integration determination.

Most ALPA officials are seen as no different than entrenched, corrupt career politicians that put protection of self interest above their representational responsibilities. Its sorta degenerated into a Ponzi scheme. Who knows how much longer they can hold out against the growing unrest of the natives.

Maybe ALPA should come out with an aggressive campaign to tell the natives to calm down and point the finger of accusation in the correct direction..

Its your fault... YOU are ALPA! Yeah, that will work.

Rez, PCL, over to you!

Any Airline Pilot who wants to be be flying US registered jets for US airlines has to follow this priority... even though they probably don't even know it...

International issues
National issues
Local issues

APA, SWAPA, USAPA, IPA, IBT.. all function on the lowest level...

Basically what they have done is... gone the easy, attractive route.. which is blinders on and deal with what is going on right in front of them, right here, right now. Like a small town hick who never leaves the county yet his food and cothing that he buys at Family Dollar/WM is made around the world...

Are these pilot groups, especially the ones with int'l routes prepared for a UAL Aer Lingus deal? Outsourcing, which is the American Way by the way, has been seen in the pilot world as effecting the bottom of the seniority list, but management has schemes to attack it from the sides and top....

In order to prevent widebody outsourcing, cabatoge, etc.. pilot groups are going to have to function on an international level.

Does USAPA have an international game plan? APA? IPA?

Are they a member of IFALPA?

AFL-CIO?

TTD?

Do they have permanent observer status at ICAO?

Int'l Transport Workers?

Do they have the long standing relationships needed to unify international pilot groups with different languages, cultures, values, ideas, etc...


It is easy and deceptively gratifying to make yourself out to be the biggest fish in a small pond...

 

[Turtle21]

Any Airline Pilot who wants to be be flying US registered jets for US airlines has to follow this priority... even though they probably don't even know it...

International issues
National issues
Local issues
....

Yeah sure, whatever, ALPA is still so much d@mn smarter than we pilots that don't even know (of course that's the way ALPA always is, smarter than us and making decisions that protect us from ourselves, but when we complain ALPA points the finger at us, who were denied the vote, screaming YOU ARE ALPA. ) .

If ALPA hadn't ignored their dues paying pilots and denied them a vote so many times, telling them they weren't smart enough (thanks again, for the repeat) then maybe the turd wouldn't stink.

Back to you sunshine.

P.S. Don't feel bad because it probably isn't your fault. There are some essential minimum things that the dues paying pilot expects that you probably don't even know!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Yeah sure, whatever, ALPA is still so much d@mn smarter than we pilots that don't even know (of course that's the way ALPA always is, smarter than us and making decisions that protect us from ourselves, but when we complain ALPA points the finger at us, who were denied the vote, screaming YOU ARE ALPA. ) .

If ALPA hadn't ignored their dues paying pilots and denied them a vote so many times, telling them they weren't smart enough (thanks again, for the repeat) then maybe the turd wouldn't stink.

Back to you sunshine.

P.S. Don't feel bad because it probably isn't your fault. There are some essential minimum things that the dues paying pilot expects that you probably don't even know!

Looks like you got your feelings hurt.... are you ok?

 

[Turtle21]

Looks like you got your feelings hurt.... are you ok?

Self righteous condescension is another standard ALPA approach. You're on a roll!!

 

[bluesideup340]

Any Airline Pilot who wants to be be flying US registered jets for US airlines has to follow this priority... even though they probably don't even know it...

International issues
National issues
Local issues

....

In order to prevent widebody outsourcing, cabatoge, etc.. pilot groups are going to have to function on an international level.

Does USAPA have an international game plan? APA? IPA?

...

Rez, please tell us. Are you referring to the same ALPA game plan they sooooo successfully followed domestically?
You know, the one that provides unity and prosperity for all professional regional and major pilots in the US.
If so, count me in. ALPA's vision and leadership domestically in the past 30 years is the best.
For all the ALPA criticizers but a sock in it, ALPA deserves your support and love because they earned it.
That is also what ALPA means by: We are ALPA. Meaning WE not you. Because the We (ALPA National Leadership) know what is best for you and not you. Although you might think you do. But You really don’t. So you better get on the band wagon.
Thanks for your support and Monday do not wear your hat, that will show them.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez, please tell us. Are you referring to the same ALPA game plan they sooooo successfully followed domestically?
You know, the one that provides unity and prosperity for all professional regional and major pilots in the US.
If so, count me in. ALPA's vision and leadership domestically in the past 30 years is the best.
For all the ALPA criticizers but a sock in it, ALPA deserves your support and love because they earned it.
That is also what ALPA means by: We are ALPA. Meaning WE not you. Because the We (ALPA National Leadership) know what is best for you and not you. Although you might think you do. But You really don’t. So you better get on the band wagon.
Thanks for your support and Monday do not wear your hat, that will show them.

Hindsight is 20/20....things could have been done better... like all those individual pilots that collectively voted to throw away scope....

Anyway... what ideas have you? How do you suggest we proceed?

 

[CFIT]

Hindsight is 20/20....things could have been done better... like all those individual pilots that collectively voted to throw away scope....

Anyway... what ideas have you? How do you suggest we proceed?

Maybe have the members that are on the BOD represent the ratio of regional pilots at ALPA instead of it being nearly all legacy pilots.

From what I recall there is one VP from the regionals (eagle?) and he's in charge of paper clips or something.

I've heard there are more regional Alpa pilots than from the majors?

Or just continue the conflict of intrest?

I think we all know what's going to happen.

 

[FDJ2]

Maybe have the members that are on the BOD represent the ratio of regional pilots at ALPA instead of it being nearly all legacy pilots.

From what I recall there is one VP from the regionals (eagle?) and he's in charge of paper clips or something.

I've heard there are more regional Alpa pilots than from the majors?

Or just continue the conflict of intrest?

I think we all know what's going to happen.

The members on the BOD do represent the ratio of regional pilots at ALPA. Each member of the BOD carries a roll call vote for each pilot he/she represents.

There are approximately 16,000 fee for departure/regional pilots in ALPA, that's 16,000 roll call votes, on the other hand there are approximately 34,000 pilots who are not regional pilots.

DAL/UAL/CAL/FDX represent approx. 26,000 ALPA pilots.

 

[DGdaPilot]

Eagle is the 5th largest carrier in ALPA behind Delta, United/Continental, and FedEx. Soon to be 4th after the United merger.

 

[CFIT]

The members on the BOD do represent the ratio of regional pilots at ALPA. Each member of the BOD carries a roll call vote for each pilot he/she represents.

There are approximately 16,000 fee for departure/regional pilots in ALPA, that's 16,000 roll call votes, on the other hand there are approximately 34,000 pilots who are not regional pilots.

DAL/UAL/CAL/FDX represent approx. 26,000 ALPA pilots.

So there is actually a numerical reason ALPO screws the regional pilot, got it, thanks.

 

[Mama's Boy]

From what I recall there is one VP from the regionals (eagle?) and he's in charge of paper clips or something.

Incorrect. There are actually three EVP's from regional airlines. They are from Eagle, ASA, and ExpressJet.

Do you know who your EVP is? Are you engaged in the process? Do you attend union meetings? Do you vote?

It seems as if most on this board would rather complain and play the victim rather than lift a finger and participate in his/her future.

 

[Turtle21]

Incorrect. There are actually three EVP's from regional airlines. ...

ALPA has three paperclip committees. Who knew!?

 

[FDJ2]

So there is actually a numerical reason ALPO screws the regional pilot, got it, thanks.

Screws them how?

 

[sniper]

Prater and Moak are birds of a feather. Moak has got to go as well. Why do dirtbags always seem to gravitate to these leadership positions? Maybe Moak should spend less time attending parties with folks like R.A. and more time representing pilots.

Ok Mr Akins, get a life. I wish we had ALPA on the property.

Skw should vote ALPA otherwise their days are coming.

ALL future growth at ASA/EJ.

 

[DGdaPilot]

ALPA has three paperclip committees. Who knew!?

You should at least attempt to respond in an intelligent manner. Sounds like most of the pro-ALPA folks are taking a reasonable approach to display their viewpoint while you just thumb your nose like a 3rd grader.

 

[surplus1]

Why are you all acting as if this faction at DAL is something new or surprising? There has always been a significant group of anti-union and anti-ALPA people within the Delta pilot group. This is by no means the first time that someone at DAL has proposed "leaving ALPA".

If a majority of Delta pilots were in fact interested in forming their own union, there is no doubt they have the ability to do so and can certainly survive without ALPA.

Having said that, why would they want to? The fact is that the Delta pilot group does have more clout because of their membership in ALPA. There is "strength in numbers" like it or not. Don't think that both the leaders and the group at large are unaware of that.

Apart from that there is little reason for the Delta pilots to be dissatisfied with whatever ALPA does or doesn't do - given that the Delta pilots have been running ALPA for at least the last 25 years.

Nothing and I do mean nothing, of any great significance has happened in ALPA over that time frame that did not have the approval of, or was not originated by, the Delta MEC. So, if something has happened with which they disapprove they need look no further than their own MEC. The Delta pilot group dominates ALPA and has done so for more than two decades (and that's being conservative). The Delta pilot leadership has never hesitated to wield its power to get its way within ALPA over that time frame, including openly threatening to "leave" whenever any significant opposition became apparent. They know they can survive without ALPA and the rest of ALPA knows that the "country club" can't survive in its present form without them. Call it "leverage" (that's the nice word) if you want but it's there and it has worked quite well for them. In other words, it's their ball game and it was long before the NWA merger - although they are now stronger than ever before.

In that time frame they have had only one serious challenge to their dominance, which came from UAL. They were able to overcome that by some near brilliant political manuevering and finally managed to get rid of the "fly in the ointment" that was the source of the challenge.

In short, Delta runs ALPA, period!

Now that UAL/CAL are merging their is the potential of a new challenge to the dominance of Delta within ALPA, but that is one that, IMO, the Delta group is quite capable of handling. They are quite capable of getting in bed with whomever suits their purpose to keep control.

Unless DALPA should lose control of ALPA I wouldn't worry too much about any fringe group of Delta pilots that wants to walk out of ALPA. Like I said, there have been others before.

As for the "conflict" between Regional pilots and Legacy pilots, it is mostly a rhetorical myth. The regionals do as they're told when they are told, and are literally powerless to do otherwise. They have never been smart enough to vote as a block and that is not likely to happen. So, They are "tolerated" so long as they don't make too many waves. Those that might seek to rebel find out in short order which side their bread is buttered on. They represent no serious threat to the Legacy pilots that cannot easily be dealt with inside ALPA and is. That is to be expected if you belong to an organization where you are outnumbered more than two-to-one. Call it "democracy". Remember, Democracy has no obligation to the minority; majority rules.

If Regional pilot groups don't want to be dictated to by the Legacy groups, they have the option of leaving. Not one has dared to take it. Some have declined to join, but other than that they do as they're told. That is not going to change.

Love them or hate them, the Delta pilot group is probably the most savvy within ALPA and decidedly the most politically astute. Most of them are Republicans and they vote like Republicans - in solid lock step. It's a strategy that is just as effective in ALPA as it is nationally. They can snatch political victory from the jaws of defeat when least expected. For that they are to be admired. In ALPA Delta is THE force to be reckoned with.

Why leave when you have a good thing going? It doesn't make sense.

 

[surplus1]

The silence is deafening.

 

[Ad Lib]

Surplus, yours is a very good post.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The silence is deafening.

Surplus,

Thanks for the insight..... with the recent elections... can you indicate how a non trade unionist, GOP voting, management friendly ALPA president is going to work for all of us?

 

[CEO silly sap]

ALPA gave us Nicolau- an abortion where 17 year pilots were placed behind pilots flying for THREE MONTHS! Enough said...
Goodbye fatman!

The fact is YOU and your MEC gave you the Nicolau-.
Your failure to hold their feet to the fire and monitor the progress or lack of progress is your fault. You failed to participate in the process and then failed to participate in your career( Lazy, disenfranchised,pissed off... whatever the reason was, you failed to participate) You allowed the committee to carry this arbitration to a conclusion. Even when your reps were told not to proceed because they would not like the out come. Yet they said its all or nothing( my language) but yet again the assistant to Nicolau told you again to withdraw and go back to the table.... But again it was all or nothing.

So your displeasure with ALPA should have rested with you and your reps. Yet ALPA national couldnt unscrew the debacle now know as Nicolau (AWARD).

They put together the Rice committee, yet your reps stood tall and said Final and Binding wasn't in their Vocabulary( paraphrase) and they needed ALPA National to unFukc what these reps Fukcd up.

They didnt get their way, a way that was mapped out before the release of the award itself. It's sad enough to see a pilot group with the dedication and professionalism that USAIR has shown in the ALPA structure for decades be reduced by a small group of greedy, uneducated and non communicative pilots.

So what was the answer, we will take our union dues and go home. We will join capa, we will assimilate with the Teamsters.

Bravo Sir, Well Played.