Look like an uprising at ALPA is on the horizon

[Flopgut]

In the mean time pilots blame ALPA for their unwillingness to pony up what it will take to unify the industry again.

If the Delta and United pilots leave ALPA there will be nothing preventing regionals being used to break a strike at a 'major' carrier. Sooner or later a carrier will try it.

So if you're ALPA, mainline, and junior the only option is to put the needs of the regional pilot ahead of my own? Anything less is a green light for a regional pilot to fly my struck work? I work for CAL and I don't feel obligated to give up my 50 seat jet scope clause.....

 

[MECH]

All you have to do is look at what is happening in Washington to see that going to a local union is a mistake. CAPA gets to put out press releases in response to new rules and regulations. ALPA gets a seat at the table. We may not always like the out come. But at least we had a voice in the process.

Also ALPA is only as good as it's members. So if you take a weak MEC and become an stand alone union. All you will be left with is a broke weak union, with no voice at the goverment or international level.

Please educate yourself before posting that ALPA has done nothing for you lately.

 

[sinkrate]

So if you're ALPA, mainline, and junior the only option is to put the needs of the regional pilot ahead of my own? Anything less is a green light for a regional pilot to fly my struck work? I work for CAL and I don't feel obligated to give up my 50 seat jet scope clause.....

Absolutely not. But....DAL and UAL save a lot of money by contracting out 76 seat and smaller operations. If the pilots at those carriers wish to bring that flying back in house they are going to need to do it for the same price as the contractors or management will never agree to it. If management does you will see the number of jobs on your property shrink in this competitive world. A lot of pilots will scream 'I'm not going to pay for the mistakes made 30 years ago by this union'. It definetly isn't fair but that's life.

I fly for a regional. I don't know any pilot here that wouldn't rather fly our 50 seat RJ's at a mainline carrier. We would love to see these jobs bought back to the list they belong on. But there is no way regional pilots can accomplish that - we don't even have a seat at the table. The mainline pilots are the only ones that can make that happen. If you don't want to make it happen or don't want to pay the price - thats fine. Just don't expect us to walk away from our jobs so yours will pay better.

In the end we all want the same thing - but no one wants to pay the price to make it happen.

 

[~~~^~~~]

ALPA pilots violated one of the fundamental concepts of business when they let go of small AC jobs. If you provide a service you do it for all customers. You even take on the little jobs with little revenue. If you don't you open a door for a competitor (regionals) to take more of your business.

ALPA attempted to limit the competition and wage losses by including the regional pilots in their union. So far that does not appear to have been successful.

The only way 'mainline' pilots will be able to end the competition is to buy back those jobs and include them on their list. So far no pilot group has been willing to pay the price to achieve that.

It is a classic business management problem that has played out a thousand times before in a number of different industries. It is a scenario that has been presented in business schools for decades. Do you protect your high margin business even though your market share is shrinking? Or do you take on low margin business to expand your market share and limit your competition?

When employees are involved in the decision and wages are the issue guess which way they go almost all the time. Pilots will protect that they have while giving up jobs until they go the way of the UAW. Instead of foreign labor taking their jobs it will be 'regional' labor.

In the mean time pilots blame ALPA for their unwillingness to pony up what it will take to unify the industry again.

If the Delta and United pilots leave ALPA there will be nothing preventing regionals being used to break a strike at a 'major' carrier. Sooner or later a carrier will try it.

Well stated.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Because ALPA leadership (Prater) has Completely lost touch with the membership. Why not change it? Cause the "Good Old Boys" have entrenched themselves way too deep. I am a Delta pilot and I am tired of being sold out.

Who says you won't be sold out if you change it?

 

[michael707767]

If the Delta and United pilots leave ALPA there will be nothing preventing regionals being used to break a strike at a 'major' carrier. Sooner or later a carrier will try it.

You you think being in ALPA would prevent someone who is already inclined to scab from doing so?

Tell me, even with the regionals in ALPA, what is to prevent management from trying to use them as strike breakers?

 

[Ad Lib]

Tell me, even with the regionals in ALPA, what is to prevent management from trying to use them as strike breakers?

The definition of struck work, their own MEC and the awareness that breaking a strike is wrong.

Spirit held the line despite management trying their very best to fly through a strike.

 

[Flopgut]

Absolutely not. But....DAL and UAL save a lot of money by contracting out 76 seat and smaller operations. If the pilots at those carriers wish to bring that flying back in house they are going to need to do it for the same price as the contractors or management will never agree to it. If management does you will see the number of jobs on your property shrink in this competitive world. A lot of pilots will scream 'I'm not going to pay for the mistakes made 30 years ago by this union'. It definetly isn't fair but that's life.

I fly for a regional. I don't know any pilot here that wouldn't rather fly our 50 seat RJ's at a mainline carrier. We would love to see these jobs bought back to the list they belong on. But there is no way regional pilots can accomplish that - we don't even have a seat at the table. The mainline pilots are the only ones that can make that happen. If you don't want to make it happen or don't want to pay the price - thats fine. Just don't expect us to walk away from our jobs so yours will pay better.

In the end we all want the same thing - but no one wants to pay the price to make it happen.

No one is expecting you to walk away from your job. I do expect you to not fly struck work.

The combined CAL/UAL airline will present a chance to put a widely varied fleet together and to put the most correct airplane on the most appropriate route. We're hearing the revenue potential in this is enormous and we want our share of this for the pilots. We also have a chance to preserve the CAL scope clause in the merger equation. Why would you begrudge us this chance? It is as though we are suppose to negotiate airplanes larger than 50 seats and suppose to avail them to pilots other than our own?! Do we not have enough pilots on furlough?

You've got to look at a newly merged carrier like a start up. There is a lot of stuff on the table. If a newly formed airline didn't immediately subcontract it's over 50 seat flying would you have a problem with that?

 

[sinkrate]

No one is expecting you to walk away from your job. I do expect you to not fly struck work.

The combined CAL/UAL airline will present a chance to put a widely varied fleet together and to put the most correct airplane on the most appropriate route. We're hearing the revenue potential in this is enormous and we want our share of this for the pilots. We also have a chance to preserve the CAL scope clause in the merger equation. Why would you begrudge us this chance? It is as though we are suppose to negotiate airplanes larger than 50 seats and suppose to avail them to pilots other than our own?! Do we not have enough pilots on furlough?

You've got to look at a newly merged carrier like a start up. There is a lot of stuff on the table. If a newly formed airline didn't immediately subcontract it's over 50 seat flying would you have a problem with that?

Both DAL and UAL have large 70 and 76 seat fleets. If either of those pilot groups bargains to bring that flying back 'in house' and to bring the affected pilots with it, even if it is at the bottom of the current list, it will be widely supported by all. If you are asking the regional pilots to support your strike, just to end up on the street when it is successful, you will have an up hill battle finding much support. Pilots talk tough but when it comes to giving up their seat they rarely do it.

The same statement can made about 50 seat and smaller flying. The obstacle to bringing the pilots with the AC is not the pilot groups, NW and CAL pilots to their credit have tried in the past, but management. Management everywhere loathes the idea of giving up control of who they hire. It will take a very determined and willing to make sacrifices pilot group to achieve that. Leaving ALPA won't change that. Leaving ALPA will make it much harder find support when they need it.

 

[Flopgut]

Both DAL and UAL have large 70 and 76 seat fleets. If either of those pilot groups bargains to bring that flying back 'in house' and to bring the affected pilots with it, even if it is at the bottom of the current list, it will be widely supported by all. If you are asking the regional pilots to support your strike, just to end up on the street when it is successful, you will have an up hill battle finding much support. Pilots talk tough but when it comes to giving up their seat they rarely do it.

The same statement can made about 50 seat and smaller flying. The obstacle to bringing the pilots with the AC is not the pilot groups, NW and CAL pilots to their credit have tried in the past, but management. Management everywhere loathes the idea of giving up control of who they hire. It will take a very determined and willing to make sacrifices pilot group to achieve that. Leaving ALPA won't change that. Leaving ALPA will make it much harder find support when they need it.

I don't want to see anybody get furloughed; Those days need to end. But why is it ok for UAL to park all the presumed-to-be-obsolete 737s and furlough the pilots who would have been flying them, but if the 50 seat jet becomes obsolete ML needs to make certain all the pilots flying them have a seat? Anything less and it's going to be ok for you to break any possible strike? That sucks man!! What kind of union do you think this is? What is ML's responsibility to you vs. yours to us?

This isn't as cut and dry fleet wise as you might think. There is a lot of different airplanes in play here and ML wants to get everybody back to work. There are legitimate mitigating factors to mgt wanting to operate anything with more than 50 seats outside ML. And 50 seats might be less popular in the future. What do you see in this equation that allows you to skip ahead to the threat of breaking a strike? Things went South and ML takes a hit, then it turns around ML is suppose to take another hit?!

Again, I don't want anybody to lose a seat and I think there should be plenty to go around. And let's keep this a civil discussion, I'm appreciative of your viewpoint. Additionally, doesn't ALPA have this sort of thing covered? Is there any kind of fragmentation policy that would cover the pilots already flying the 50 plus seat jets at regionals? Why don't we look into that sort of solution and build support instead of threats?

 

[PBRstreetgang]

If the majority of pilots (Delta and UAL) in ALPA want to form a different union because they are unhappy, why don't they just focus their attention on changing the existing union, instead of reinventing the wheel.

Let's see,
President-NWA, VP-UAL, VPSec-Asa,VPFin-NWA. The status quo would not be that hard to change, little will would do it, but the average pilot is too busy on F/I or multiple porn sites to really care about their career.
PBR

 

[michael707767]

The definition of struck work, their own MEC and the awareness that breaking a strike is wrong.

Spirit held the line despite management trying their very best to fly through a strike.

You think any of that would change if they were a different union? If you are counting on them being in ALPA to prevent them from doing wholesale strike breaking, you are kidding yourself. If a pilot is going to scab, he is going to scab. No matter what his MEC says.

 

[Turtle21]

Who says you won't be sold out if you change it?

The one dinosaur trick ALPA has perfected is scaring the dues paying serfs.

"Always remember that the king has the helm and no serf need think for himself or doubt because it could really upset the boat. Neither should he think himself wise enough to vote without the wise council of the mothership, nor should he even consider wondering off the reservation to form something better."

Look how it has destroyed American and imagine were SoutWest would be if they paid dues to ALPA!

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Uh, go to APC Mr. ALPA suckup and you will see over 30 pages on the subject in only one day!!! ACL has his finger in the dyke over there.

Whatever Jackhole.....

Consider yourself another monkey being handed a banana by a group who wants a poo fight and can't provide any answers.....it'll be more of the same, just a different bunch of clowns trying to get their trips bought.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Now, I wonder WHY they are anonymous? Hmmmm.... :erm:




Now who would want something like THAT to happen? :erm:

Delta Pilots Association • P.O. Box 17025 • Tampa, FL 33682-7025

http://www.fordharrison.com/showoffice.aspx?show=57 Ford & Harrison Tampa, FL

Delta's EVP of HR, from Anti-Pilot Union-Busting Law Firm Ford & Harrison
http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=109308

Mike H. Campbell, 59, executive vice president human resources, labor and communications, joined Delta in 2006 from Atlanta-based law firm Ford & Harrison, where he was a founding partner. Oversaw human resources and labor relations for Continental in the 1990s.

AIR Conference - Airline Industrial Relations Conference http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/im...milies/mad.gif
http://aircon.org/what_is_aircon/index.htm

"WHAT IS AIR CONFERENCE AIR CONFERENCE is a voluntary, non-profit association serving as the Washington-based labor policy organization of scheduled air carriers in the United States. Created in 1971 as a vehicle for dealing with accelerating labor costs on an industry-wide basis, AIR CONFERENCE provides for inter-carrier exchange of information on negotiations and other employee relations matters. It is the only legally approved forum for joint study of labor policy matters of common interest to the scheduled carriers.

AIR CONFERENCE is governed by a Board of Directors composed of the Chief Executive Officers of all member carriers. The President of the Conference serves for a term of one year without compensation except for expenses authorized by the Advisory Board. The Advisory Board is composed of the chief employee relations officers at each member carrier. Annual operating budgets are determined by the Advisory Board subject to approval by the Board of Directors. General management of all Conference programs is under the direction of the Vice President.
CLICK HERE to see our staff directory.
http://aircon.org/images/staff/staff_dir.gifhttp://aircon.org/images/staff/executive_dir.gifPresident
Michael H. Campbell
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Executive Vice President - Human Resources and Labor Relations "[/FONT]

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I SERIOUSLY hope you guys have stopped being so gullable and falling for these divisive tactics. They PREY on dissention at ALPA to accomplish their goals. With the amount of work and unity it would take to REALLY start another union (which does not seem to be occurring here) why not direct that energy at FORCING ALPA to accomplish what you are paying them big money to do?

Unite together as pilots and force change within your current union. Status quo should be unacceptable, but it shouldn't involve being victimized by a group who gets millions upon millions from your companies to keep money from pilots and pull tactics like this APPEARS to be.

Good detective work VOR......

Yep, it's a front.....