LOI for loss of seperation

[FreeFaller]

Can anyone give me insight as to how this is going to play out?
I taxied our Lear 35 past the hold short line (on a clear and sunny day) but caught my mistake before getting to the runway. Made a quick 180 back just as a 757 flew overhead at about 300'.
I got the "call this phone number", was told it would be reported and am now waiting for the LOI and enforcement from the FAA.
Anyone know the likely action from the FAA?
Suggestions on how to handle this?

 

[A Squared]

Can anyone give me insight as to how this is going to play out?
I taxied our Lear 35 past the hold short line (on a clear and sunny day) but caught my mistake before getting to the runway. Made a quick 180 back just as a 757 flew overhead at about 300'.
I got the "call this phone number", was told it would be reported and am now waiting for the LOI and enforcement from the FAA.
Anyone know the likely action from the FAA?
Suggestions on how to handle this?

Well first thing is to file a nasa ASRS report. I'd send it certified return mail and make sure you hold onto the receipt. That hopefully will keep you from being asseed a penalty.

I don't want to discourage you, but, runway incursions are currently a hot button with the FAA, so the chances of it just going away are slim. be prepared Good luck

 

[DrProc]

Can anyone give me insight as to how this is going to play out?
I taxied our Lear 35 past the hold short line (on a clear and sunny day) but caught my mistake before getting to the runway. Made a quick 180 back just as a 757 flew overhead at about 300'.
I got the "call this phone number", was told it would be reported and am now waiting for the LOI and enforcement from the FAA.
Anyone know the likely action from the FAA?
Suggestions on how to handle this?

As much as we all like lawyers, I think the best thing to do is contact a reputable aviation lawyer. At the least he should be able to reduce any penalty and at the most he should be able to make this thing never appear on your record.

 

[ATCER]

Hey... I agree with what was said. File the NASA form (registered mail) and get a lawyer.

I assume this was an FAA tower... understand we (controllers) are under a lot of pressure right now in our fight for a fair contract with the FAA. There is a lot going on behind the scenes. Unfortunately this HAD to get turned in and reported through the proper channels... if it came out that there was a loss of separation and it was not reported the controller would be fired. It's happening more then you think...

Follow the advice, especially a good lawyer... I hope all works out well for you.

 

[FreeFaller]

One of the first things I did was file a NASA report.
Sounds like I'm in the market for a lawyer.
Thanks
Blue Skies

 

[h25b]

The tower personnel had no discretion in whether or not this one got turned in. They will pull all relevent tapes/radar plots, fill out the forms, and then forward all of it to the LOCAL FSDO for further processing. You will be contacted either by phone by an Inspector or you will just get a certified letter. If you get the phone call I would highly recommend just telling them exactly what happened while being as "compliant" as possible. Some on here will disagree but I just don't see the point of taking the "I have contacted an attorney" route and just leaving it at that. This will only gaurantee that it goes on through the process of enforcement action. Since this was a runway incursion I can virtually guarantee that it is going to anyway. Like the other guy said, it's a hot button topic currently. This sounds like a very cut and dry case, I highly doubt that an attorney is going to save you. If you just be a good guy and own up to it the worst you'll probably get is a "Letter of Warning" given that you have an otherwise clean record.

You should have already filed a NASA Form via certified mail, if you haven't just make sure that you be very generic in the description portion of the receipt portion. Just put something like "runway descrepency," DO NOT put "runway incursion!!!" If you did you just admitted guilt.

Provided you get the NASA form in on time and can provide the stub it will not prevent you from getting whatever enforcement action, but you will not have to pay the fine or lose your ticket.

 

[FN FAL]

Not trying to be a smart ass, but looking back on this situation, do you think that if you would have just stopped where you were and awaited your next clearance that the issue of being "a little past the hold short line" would have been shined over?

I guess I'm just wondering if it wasn't the extra activity of that u-turn that made it so they had to report it?

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

OUCH! As a tower puke/swivel head Id say the same as everyone above. Crossing the hold short lines is technically a runway incursion and it sounds as though the tower did loose sepeartion with the 757 either landing or taking off, sounds like he as landing. Get that lawyer on the phone and fill that NASA form out and send it registerd like my controller buddy above said. Runway incursions are no laughing matter and all though it wasn't intentional none of them usually are. Its a major issue these days and it isn't taken lightly on the FAA side. Good luck.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

I have to agree with FN FAL.

How far ahead were you or were you actually beginning to take the runwayand swung it around. I'm imagining that in order to accomplish a 180 in a lear on the taxiway leading to the runway, you're going to have to get pretty far into the runway area.

Controllers:

do the screens provide a clear view of the runway, hold short deliniation/demarcation line, or couldthis be a visual call from the tower.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

As a CFI I actually got this DVD and poster in the mail dealing with runway incursions. Apparently, the taxiway lines will now have additional dashes on both sides of the line leading up to all hold short lines. This will only be at certain airports and have a set amount oftiem to comply.

 

[Vladimir Lenin]

i cant add anything useful, but i did get the dvd a few weeks back too
don't fight it without good representation

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

Amish Rake......Its a visual cue more then anything, but AMASS will alarm if a vehicle gets to close to an active runway.

 

[HS125]

The tower personnel had no discretion in whether or not this one got turned in. They will pull all relevent tapes/radar plots, fill out the forms, and then forward all of it to the LOCAL FSDO for further processing. You will be contacted either by phone by an Inspector or you will just get a certified letter. If you get the phone call I would highly recommend just telling them exactly what happened while being as "compliant" as possible. Some on here will disagree but I just don't see the point of taking the "I have contacted an attorney" route and just leaving it at that. This will only gaurantee that it goes on through the process of enforcement action. Since this was a runway incursion I can virtually guarantee that it is going to anyway. Like the other guy said, it's a hot button topic currently. This sounds like a very cut and dry case, I highly doubt that an attorney is going to save you. If you just be a good guy and own up to it the worst you'll probably get is a "Letter of Warning" given that you have an otherwise clean record.

The last thing you want to do is own up to it. Be compliant yes but don't give them anymore information for them to hang you with. There is no need for you to do the inspectors job for them. You may or may not get a phone call, but you will be asked to write a letter in your own words explaining you side of the story. Rest assured, if you do write a letter it will be used against you. Let your attorney write the letter for you he/she should be able to mitigate the damage that the letter will cause.

 

[ReverseSensing]

The last thing you want to do is own up to it. Be compliant yes but don't give them anymore information for them to hang you with. There is no need for you to do the inspectors job for them. You may or may not get a phone call, but you will be asked to write a letter in your own words explaining you side of the story. Rest assured, if you do write a letter it will be used against you. Let your attorney write the letter for you he/she should be able to mitigate the damage that the letter will cause.

Agreed. Pretend you're avoiding crew scheduling and don't answer the phone. Get a lawyer to return the call and write the letter. Nothing you can say directly to an inspector now will be guaranteed to help your cause, and it could do you a great deal of harm depending on whether the inspector is predisposed to screw you or not.

 

[h25b]

The last thing you want to do is own up to it. Be compliant yes but don't give them anymore information for them to hang you with. There is no need for you to do the inspectors job for them. You may or may not get a phone call, but you will be asked to write a letter in your own words explaining you side of the story. Rest assured, if you do write a letter it will be used against you. Let your attorney write the letter for you he/she should be able to mitigate the damage that the letter will cause.

I am speaking of this case in particular. This one is a slam dunk for an FAA enforcement action. On top of it all it's a runway incursion involving a passenger carrying airliner and a highly qualified ATP driving a Learjet (i.e. the guy was supposed to know what he was doing). This one will be going through the paces and WILL result in at least a Letter of Warning. He can count on it. In my humble opinion going the lawyer route will pretty much eliminate his chances of getting a Letter of Warning which goes away after 2 years. If I were in his shoes I would be hoping for the Letter of Warning.

The FAA most likely already has witnesses (the Tower Controllers and any other pilots within eyesight) and he most likely made the phone call to the number he was provided which has proven that he was the PIC involved. Am I missing something ??? HIS GOOSE IS COOKED. In a sense, he has already "owned up to it." For crying out loud there are at least 2 FAA Operations Inspectors that I know of that frequent this board, by matching his profile and description of the event he very publicly just cooked his own goose. For the love of God, he even titled the thread "LOI for loss of separation." Gee Whiz, he just admitted that he caused a loss separation. Heck, at this point calling a lawyer will get him killed. Any legal counsel I know of would shoot him immediately for posting this thread.

I swear I must be the only realist left on this forum. See below...

I got the "call this phone number", was told it would be reported and am now waiting for the LOI and enforcement from the FAA.

Not answering that phone call is the dumbest advice I could imagine given these circumstances. You guys need to remember that the whole point of this entire process in the eyes of the FAA Inspector is to "insure compliance." So not answering the phone or responding in any way to the letter of investigation just proves to the assigned inspector that the case needs to go to enforcement action to "insure compliance." It is unheard of for an enforcement action to be stopped after it goes beyond this initial contact.

I would however agree that having a lawyer help with the written response to the letter of investigation is most likely wise. If you get the letter instead of a phone call you really don't have much hope of getting away with just a verbal counseling session and the best you can hope for is the Letter of Warning. If the assigned Ops. Inspector feels like their is hope of resolving easily I'd think they'd give you a phone call before writing the letter, but this is just my humble, ill-advised opinion. Take it for what it's worth since it's free.