LOI for loss of seperation

[No Delay]

HS125...point taken.

However, I FULLY believe that if I had "lawyer -ed up" and showed some type of attitude it would have been a lot worse! I was honest about my screw up. He gave me a good lecture and that was it.

I just have a hard time seeing how a lawyer (in this situation) could really make things better.

I think a good attitude, being man enough to admit your mistake and showing you have learned from the situation will go a lot futher than a lawyer.


When I was in my new hire class our POI (our FAA guy) came in and address our class. He talked about this very thing. He said anytime something happens, the first thing he does is send that letter. In his letter of investigation he invites the pilot to come and discuss this situation with him personally.

He said many times when a pilot comes to see him they can handle things "in house" and lets that be the end of it. He said a pilot's attitude played the biggest factor.

He also said that when he gets that letter from their lawyer he goes into "legal mode" and has to start building a case.

He said, however, there have been times the situation was so bad that he did advise the pilot to take the legal route.

The impression I got from this inspector and from my own experience was these are just regular guys...most pilots...and they are not out for you.

Like I said earlier, I am just sharing my personal experience. I certainly wouldn't fault a person either way. Each person has to do what they feel is right.

 

[No Delay]

I could also tell you another story. 4 or 5 guys from a flight school all got busted for the same thing...mostly paperwork stuff and maintenance but the cfi's caught it for flying an "un-airworthy" airplane. 2 of the guys were just older hangar bums that were instructing has a hobby. 3 were airline bound.

The 2 older guys took the letter of warning. the 2 older guys could give a flip about the letter of warning. The other 3 hired lawyers because they did not want this on their record. It has now been over 2 years and they are still waiting. They have also each spent about $5000.

Funny thing, the 2 older guys letter has already dropped off their record.



Also, a letter of warning is not a career ender. Do you know how many airline pilots have letters of warning or letters of investigation?

 

[TurboS7]

I hear ya

I read the first post and I heard the frustrations of a contoller. No pilot(at least all of us from the old school, from the new school there are some I am not impressed with)is going to write any controller up. The only reason he would do this is because he maybe felt that the controller was going to do it himself. Most of the time we use the tone of voice to determine what we are going to do in the event of a problem. The risky part is that we don't know what happens after the controller releases the mike switch. With the advent of the ASAP program if there is a mistake the pilot is going to write it up to cover himselt. If he writes it up it will go to the ASAP committee which consist of the union, the POI(FAA), and the committee heads from management. Usually it will stop right there and go no further, by the time it gets to the committee the whole incident is sterilzed so no one knows the time, date and situation.If one does not write up an ASAP report and it hits the fan via another venue, the pilot is in big trouble and could face violations, with an ASAP report the pilot is exempt for the most part.Therefore with the advent of the ASAP program any type of incident I will write up, this covers myself and my crew and in reality covers the controller too as incident now goes from regulatory violation to advisory so no one involved will get hurt one way or the other.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

What's the worst case scenario for receiving an LOW or LOI. Does it get worse, what isthe worst that comes out of this and can one recevie multiple LOI's. ultimately, how does it affect someone who does or doesnt want a career. Can a pilot who flies for leisure not really care about them, will he have his certificate yanked....

Bascially, what are all the legal actions that may be adminsitered or actions taken, and how can this jeopardize a pilots certifcate...

 

[avbug]

What can happen after receiving a letter of investigation?

Anything.

Can it damage your career? The LOI, no. The results of enforcement and administrative action? Yes.

How much?

It depends.

 

[HS125]

HS125...point taken.

However, I FULLY believe that if I had "lawyer -ed up" and showed some type of attitude it would have been a lot worse! I was honest about my screw up. He gave me a good lecture and that was it.

I just have a hard time seeing how a lawyer (in this situation) could really make things better.

I think a good attitude, being man enough to admit your mistake and showing you have learned from the situation will go a lot futher than a lawyer.

I didn't indicate that you should have anything less than a respectful attitude or let a lawyer do all your talking for you. You are right, when talking to the FAA, if and when they call, you should be respectful and contrite but you must be very careful as to what you say. When talking to an inspector I sure wouldn't even tell the him/her that I have been talking to an attorney, but I sure as heck would talk to an attorney first if I was expecting a call or letter from the FAA. The attorney can counsel you as to what to expect and what not to say. If you are requested to respond in writing, either write the letter yourself and have an attorney review or have the attorney write it for you. When talking to an inspector you have to know what to say and more importantly, you need to know what not to say. You are dealing with someone who has the ability to harm your career and contrary to what they say, they are not here to help.

 

[FL420]

Your FO is on the hook too

Since your First Officer is a required crewmember, in this time of emphasis on CRM, he/she is also at risk. He/she is expected to be able to prevent this type of incident. He/she should also expect a phone call and/or LOI from the FSDO.

I am pretty sure they are going to compare what your FO says re: the incident with what you say. It would help both of you to be on the same page. I hope you have been treating your FO well.

Both of you should definitely fill out and send in the NASA ASRS reporting form in a timely manner.

It is possible that since you are not Part 121, the FO may not be held accountable, but I wouldn't count on it. If 121, definitely yes, he/she is accountable.

 

[Say Again Over]

Had some experiences with similar instances, what Avbug says is the truth, only you can gage whether or not to be gabby with the inspector, not giving him any information can be polite and friendly, like, "I've been advised not to make a statement at this time but will do everything to cooperate", bla bla.

 

[ultrarunner]

Well first thing is to file a nasa ASRS report. I'd send it certified return mail and make sure you hold onto the receipt. That hopefully will keep you from being asseed a penalty.

It will prevent certificated action. That's all. Still subject to a civil penalty if you apeal it all the way and loose. As others have said, file the NASA form, the call an aviation atty.

 

[h25b]

It will prevent certificated action. That's all. Still subject to a civil penalty if you apeal it all the way and loose. As others have said, file the NASA form, the call an aviation atty.

This is not correct. ASRS filing will not prevent the enforcement action but it will prevent you having to actually surrender your ticket and/or pay any civil penalty. In other words, you get convicted but you don't have to serve any sentence...